I almost crashed against a parked car when my first pump failed. The second pump failed when I was starting the car so no consequences....

I almost crashed against a parked car when my first pump failed. The second pump failed when I was starting the car so no consequences....

So in some respects you were lucky, makes you wonder if there are any facts and figures out there that relate to accidents caused by electronic PAS failure, having read other article's concerning these systems failing, it certainly makes you wonder.

What if your driving along, minding your own business, lets say your coming into a bend and your changing down the gears to take the bend and only have one hand on the steering wheel, when the PAS lets go and in that moment you find yourself going into the onward coming lane, ok as you all know the faster your going the steering is lighter, even without PAS working, but its at the lower speeds that the steering doe's become very heavy and when this happens, when you least expect it, you could be involved in a, at fault accident, when in theory it was not your fault.

What is the most common cause of pump fail? Water?

What is the most common cause of pump fail? Water?

 

Water does seem to get into some of them and corrode the electronics. Early Fabias had a foam jacket around the PAS pump designed to dampen motor noise but it used to get soaked and cause water to get into the pump, so they dispensed with fitting the jacket on later models.

Water does seem to get into some of them and corrode the electronics. Early Fabias had a foam jacket around the PAS pump designed to dampen motor noise but it used to get soaked and cause water to get into the pump, so they dispensed with fitting the jacket on later models.

 

My second pump burned this way: I had trouble with my starter motor, I was in a trip on a hot day 30ºC and after125 miles I stopped the car for a break and had the bad idea to test the starter motor and started and stopped the car the car like 5 times in a row and at 5th time the dash light came up and pump stopped working. 

 

Maybe just a coincidence but...

Edited 25 July, 201510 yr by dm222

 

My second pump burned this way: I had trouble with my starter motor, I was in a trip on a hot day 30ºC and after125 miles I stopped the car for a break and had the bad idea to test the starter motor and started and stopped the car the car like 5 times in a row and at 5th time the dash light came up and pump stopped working. 

 

Maybe just a coincidence but...

 

 

 

I'll remember not to do that then

I just did some reading about why low voltage may kill a dc motor. (Apologies to the OP for topic drift)

 

It's all about back-EMF (google it), the 'generator' voltage that opposes the battery voltage in proportion to rotor speed. At zero rpm, there's zero back-EMF, so the 'stall current' of the motor flows, which might be enough to damage the windings if it occurs for long enough (and e.g. the fuse doesn't save it by blowing). Normally this stall/start-up current would only happen for a tiny fraction of a second, because the motor would start to spin, and generate this back-EMF. Stall current might be 5-10 times the full speed current.

 

I suspect that the repeated testing of the starter motor caused the system voltage to droop so low that your PAS pump wasn't getting enough voltage to start turning, so the stall/locked-rotor current would flow until either the motor blew, the fuse popped, or the control/monitoring electronics shut it off completely. I'm a bit surprised that the last one of those didn't happen TBH.

 

Are you (dm222) 100% sure your car doesn't have a battery/charging problem? That might be the core reason for all your PAS problems and the problem you thought was your starter motor. Very, very common on these cars due to the way the alternator signal wiring was/is implemented. Hardly a week goes by without someone on here having to repair these wires, at the plug/socket connection on the front of the gearbox.

Just conducted a quick search, accidents caused by electronic power steering failure, makes for pretty grim reading, seems like a large number of vehicle producers are all having problems with there electronic power steering systems and serious injury and deaths have occurred.

Having worked within the motor trade, since the early 1980's, I tend to believe that the vehicle makers like to keep a lid on things, for as long as they can before there forced to act, in fact some will go as far as lying and hope that you go away or pay out for what can be a expensive repair, when a known fault exists.

This is just one example that I have come across, a neighbour of mine purchased a not very old diesel, with history from a main dealer and had not owned the vehicle very long, he drove over to France to see relatives and on the return journey the car lost power and was missing and farting about, but was able to make it back, the next day he took it back to the main dealer and was told that he needed a new engine, fuel lines, fuel tank and other bibs and bobs, due to the fact that the diesel pump had broken up internally and the debris had worked there way into the engine and the whole of the fuel system and as you can imagine the cost of the repair was very high, of which my neighbour would have to shoulder as the car was out of warranty.

Leaving the car at the main dealers, he made his way home and started to do a little research on the net and low and behold he discovered that this was a onward going problem that the makers knew about, as the diesel pumps were sub standard and were letting go between 30-50,000 miles.

After printing off his findings, he returned to the dealer and asked what they were going to do to repair his vehicle, this was before presenting them with his findings, as he wanted to give them a chance to come clean, but they still tried it on and said he would have to pay the full cost, it was at this point he presented them with his findings and as you can imagine there were some very very red faces, long story short the dealers repaired the vehicle free of charge.

So coming back on topic and this is only my opinion, having read not only on this forum but from other sources that electronic power steering is not reliable, or should I say its fine when working as it should, but when it lets go, it lets go big time and as your steering is one of your major components as to the running and safety of your vehicle, so do you trust your steering? From what I have uncovered there is nothing worst than driving along, with a knot in your stomach, waiting for your steering to fail.

So coming back on topic and this is only my opinion, having read not only on this forum but from other sources that electronic power steering is not reliable, or should I say its fine when working as it should, but when it lets go, it lets go big time and as your steering is one of your major components as to the running and safety of your vehicle, so do you trust your steering? From what I have uncovered there is nothing worst than driving along, with a knot in your stomach, waiting for your steering to fail.

 

That's really a bad feeling, when I start the car my heart races and my hands are shaking to see if the pump still works. When I'm driving sometimes before a complicated manover I still check if the steering still works, but if the steering goes bad during the manover probably I'm dead, just saying... 

 

 

1- I suspect that the repeated testing of the starter motor caused the system voltage to droop so low that your PAS pump wasn't getting enough voltage to start turning, so the stall/locked-rotor current would flow until either the motor blew, the fuse popped, or the control/monitoring electronics shut it off completely. I'm a bit surprised that the last one of those didn't happen TBH.

 

2 - Are you (dm222) 100% sure your car doesn't have a battery/charging problem? That might be the core reason for all your PAS problems and the problem you thought was your starter motor. Very, very common on these cars due to the way the alternator signal wiring was/is implemented. Hardly a week goes by without someone on here having to repair these wires, at the plug/socket connection on the front of the gearbox.

 

2 - The problem in the starter motor turned out to be a conector that conects the negative wiring to the starter motor.

The first pump burned 2 months after a battery change (VARTA), when the second pump burned (just 4 months later) I changed the battery under warranty just in case, but It was necessary a new pump anyway. The alternator, I tested using VCDS and I get at least 13,7V in the terminals I checked.

 

1 - Maybe the problem is that, because after the pump stopped working I stopped and started the car again to see if I could bring steering back and then the starter started spinning infinitely even after turned off the car. Had to remove the cable to stop it. Maybe the same thing happened to the pump...

Tested the new pump and the during the start, the pump uses at least 38A to start spinning...

Edited 26 July, 201510 yr by dm222

Measure with a meter, right across the battery terminals, before and after starting engine.  13.7 sounds like a low figure to me.

Measure with a meter, right across the battery terminals, before and after starting engine.  13.7 sounds like a low figure to me.

It's low enough to make me think that something is using current, but that sounds more like headlights draw than start or PA pump.

I will buy a multimeter to check that. I guess VCDS voltages are not reliable since I only get  around 12.15V before I start the engine...

I checked right after replacing the battery and it was like that too...

Edited 26 July, 201510 yr by dm222

I don't know why VCDS voltages would be inaccurate, and if true, that battery is at a low state of charge.

You don't need to spend much on a multimeter, to get one that's adequate. Useful thing to keep in the car.

 

Have you checked that connection that fireballxl5 cleaned? The small wire on battery negative terminal?

 Ok after having no trouble Friday and Saturday, today we set out to see a band at a nearby boozer about 14 miles away from us and just as we arrived, the PAS briefly went off and came back on again, just as I slowed down to make a right turn, now it has become apparent that, more times than not, the PAS seems to be cutting out when the revs drop, when pulling up or going to park, or making a lower speed manoeuvre, this has lead me to think that the alternator maybe faulty, or the battery, although holds charge may have a cell down, or there might be some thing going on in the loom, between the charging unit and the battery. 

 Whilst at the pub, got to speaking to a old friend who said he had the same issue with his motor a while back (not a Skoda) which turned out to be the alternator and that he, at the time believed there was no fault with it, as the battery light was going out on start up, but after replacing the alternator everything was fine. 

 So tomorrow will try to get a voltage test done, to see if its charging and at the same time check the battery, which looking at it, looks like a sealed unit that's a 48A, in general I have found that any battery that shows swelling on the side walls is a good indication that not all is well with it and shows that its on its way out, as the cells are breaking down.

 Strangely the return journey past without a glitch.  

 Ok after having no trouble Friday and Saturday, today we set out to see a band at a nearby boozer about 14 miles away from us and just as we arrived, the PAS briefly went off and came back on again, just as I slowed down to make a right turn, now it has become apparent that, more times than not, the PAS seems to be cutting out when the revs drop, when pulling up or going to park, or making a lower speed manoeuvre, this has lead me to think that the alternator maybe faulty, or the battery, although holds charge may have a cell down, or there might be some thing going on in the loom, between the charging unit and the battery. 

 Whilst at the pub, got to speaking to a old friend who said he had the same issue with his motor a while back (not a Skoda) which turned out to be the alternator and that he, at the time believed there was no fault with it, as the battery light was going out on start up, but after replacing the alternator everything was fine. 

 So tomorrow will try to get a voltage test done, to see if its charging and at the same time check the battery, which looking at it, looks like a sealed unit that's a 48A, in general I have found that any battery that shows swelling on the side walls is a good indication that not all is well with it and shows that its on its way out, as the cells are breaking down.

 Strangely the return journey past without a glitch.  

 

I don't wan't to sound alarming but both times my steering failed, it was intermitent at first and it was failing more and more (now that you talk about it I believe maybe it was at low revs too), and eventually stopped working at all times.

Low speed is when the pump works faster so it needs more energy, how many years has your battery?

Your problem is so similar to mine... Did you start and stopped the car many times in a row at some point?

 

 

 

 

Wino: Checked again with VCDS... 13,93V with headlights off, between 13,85 and 13,77V with headlights on, but when I move the steering lowers, the minimum I had was 13,20V

Edited 26 July, 201510 yr by dm222

I don't wan't to sound alarming but both times my steering failed, it was intermitent at first and it was failing more and more (now that you talk about it I believe maybe it was at low revs too), and eventually stopped working at all times.

Low speed is when the pump works faster so it needs more energy, how many years has your battery?

Your problem is so similar to mine... Did you start and stopped the car many times in a row at some point?

 

 

 

 

Wino: From what you said preiously that would only affect the readings, right? The electronics would still have 14V avalaible

I only recently purchased the car with some accident damage to it, which I repaired then had issues with burnt valves on number three cylinder, so took the head off and fitted two new exhaust valves and refurbished the others, engine runs great now, but no sooner that I put one thing right, another problem rears its ugly head, as for the battery, I have no idea how old it is, as it came with the car, who knows but it could be the original one that was first fitted to the car.

48A seems low to me for a car with electric power steering, mine sometimes consumes 40A just the power steering... or aren't the two the same thing?

I had an accident too...

Edited 26 July, 201510 yr by dm222

I don't know why VCDS voltages would be inaccurate, and if true, that battery is at a low state of charge.

You don't need to spend much on a multimeter, to get one that's adequate. Useful thing to keep in the car.

 

Have you checked that connection that fireballxl5 cleaned? The small wire on battery negative terminal?

Contrarywise; since there's nothing in a PC that's designed to measure voltages directly, I think you have to trust RossTech's programmers to have used the correct formulae for VCDS to return accurate voltages (and this is my day job (software engineering generally, not specifically VAG systems)).

 

I agree about the multimeter though; you should be able to get a digital one for under £10 these days.

48A seems low to me for a car with electric power steering, mine sometimes consumes 40A just the power steering... or aren't the two the same thing?

I had an accident too...

48A is a current; batteries don't have a current, but a charge capacity, started in Amp Hours (AH). A quick Google says that the OP's 1.4 petrol uses a 44AH battery.

When I said "I don't know why VCDS voltages would be inaccurate", what I meant was "I think it's very improbable that they would be wrong".

It was dm222 who was mistrusting them, not me.

48A is a current; batteries don't have a current, but a charge capacity, started in Amp Hours (AH). A quick Google says that the OP's 1.4 petrol uses a 44AH battery.

Will find out tomorrow just what battery has been fitted, although I said 48A this could be wrong as it was a off the top of my head statement and I may be incorrect, or it might have even been a number that stuck after reading so many threads lol.

Probably 48Ah. Sounds about right.

Probably 48Ah. Sounds about right.

Just had a quick look at some of the battery suppliers and what they have to say and they all seem to differ from 44AH to 63AH.

VCDS doesn't calculate the voltages, it simply reports what the PCM tells it, the onboard ECU will have accurate voltage measurement capability, it's very important for all the PWM controlled actuators and the throttle stepper.

Quote from firballxl5:- "So coming back on topic and this is only my opinion, having read not only on this forum but from other sources that electronic power steering is not reliable, or should I say its fine when working as it should, but when it lets go, it lets go big time and as your steering is one of your major components as to the running and safety of your vehicle, so do you trust your steering? From what I have uncovered there is nothing worst than driving along, with a knot in your stomach, waiting for your steering to fail."   

 

Well it could be worse, see the latest from Jeep etc!

 

I'm not sure that current(present) electric steering is any more reliable than this hydraulic assisted system, quite a few failures from Mini and failed columns from Fiat etc, as well as rack failures, normally the build regulations will demand that when the system fails, unassisted steering, though heavier, will exist. It is when we get braking by wire we will need to hope that someone has done their homework properly!