felicia N-reg 1.3 glxi AFTERMARKET & SUPERIOR head gasket?

[fpga]

Over a few weeks the above car has gone from losing half the header tank over 100 miles to a constant white "smoke" screen from the exhaust that empties the header tank in about 10 miles now . I did an oil (from the dipstick) sizzle test last weekend and sadly it sizzled, confirming water presence, before smoking. The latest vapour trail simply confirms the same so...it's time for a new gasket.

 

I replaced my old Favorit gasket with an OEM one and it worked for another 80K miles 'til I scrapped the thing for other reasons.

I had the head professionally machined locally (Birmingham area).

 

I've got a 2ft engineering straight edge/feelers and am considering "skimming" the head myself using "sandpaper"/glass/mdf if it's not too badly warped. I'm just wondering if there are superior AFTERMARKET gaskets that would be more forgiving re my handy work (flatness/surface finish) or at least stronger if I do send it off to be machined again.

 

I've bought a Felicia manual and shall read it but it's been a while so assume no knowledge whatsoever...I mean it.

If any of you experienced Skoda engine addicts have any tricks re making things easier I'd very much appreciate them.

 

Thank you in anticipation.

Edited 18 October, 2015 by fpga

[fpga]

removed

Edited 18 October, 2015 by fpga

[fpga]

I've just been looking at scraping as a way of getting the head flat.

Do shops normally straighten the heads by heat treating first.

[RicardoM]

Please don't tell me you've watched the video of head resurfacing 'at home' with sandpaper made by that clown that goes by the nickname 'oldskool funk' on YouTube... He never came back with a follow up on that joke job.

 

We are talking about 0.04 mm tolerance (1.6 thou). unachievable by hand on a big surface. Go to a machine shop. They will check the head for cracks, resurface, clean and grind valves, etc professionally. We are too poor to afford cheap jobs, the saying goes.

 

As for the head gasket, I would go for Czech original.

[fpga]

Yes that was my inspiration for considering the DIY route.

When weighing up the risk of getting it wrong i.e. new head and time ( which seems high according to your advice ) vs the cost of machining, the latter looks quite compelling when considering the 80k miles motoring it secured, last time around. Thank you very much for helping to make my mind up. It's very much appreciated.

Same goes for the head gasket.

What a great forum this is.

Edited 18 October, 2015 by fpga

[RicardoM]

Yes that was my inspiration for considering the DIY route.

I knew it YouTube is a small place. Although that guy is a good mechanic, sometimes he overdoes it, especially when he thinks he invented the wheel or the hot water. Not to mention he needs anger management classes fast. Not only because he bashes and trashes his tools or parts, but how many people end a car repair video with a preach about Jesus the warrior ghetto version??!

 

Anyways, update us on machining and if possible take some photos of the head before and after.

[daverapid]

Always check the 20mm core plugs under the rocker cover on the 1.3 135/6 Skoda engines. I've seen a few pop out causing coolant to leak directly into the oil giving head gasket symptoms.

[RicardoM]

Very good observation. Not sure that could happen in a stock Felicia, but nonetheless it is new proof that the diagnosis for a bad head gasket needs to be thorough.

 

That could explain the mayonnaise in the oil filler cap of a car. But in this case the core plug leak could not explain the white smoke reported hy OP.

 

For those curious where those core plugs are, here is a photo showing two of them from a total of three.

[fpga]

>Anyways, update us on machining and if possible take some photos of the head before and after.

Will do

>Always check the 20mm core plugs under the rocker cover on the 1.3 135/6 Skoda engines.

Ditto.

 

Thanks very much for the extra advice. It helps and I'm hoping to have the head off tomorrow.

[fpga]

THE STORY SO FAR...

THE GOOD NEWS....

I think the head (with manifolds attached) is free to be lifted now but have left it on overnight to keep the liners down.

THE BAD NEWS...

I broke the central rear-most cylinder head bolt off where the threads start...(see black arrow in photo).

All bolts were tough to get out but this one needed even more force.

Any advice much appreciated because the threaded part is in very solidly.

I won't know if there's any bolt sticking out until I remove the head.

Thank you in anticipation.

Edited 21 October, 2015 by fpga

[fpga]

Here are some more specific questions.

On youtube...I see people tig welding nuts on...but wonder about distortion of the block and whether I'm just confined to easy-outs.

If I am (or if I'm not it doesn't matter 'cos I don't do tig) what's the best easy out and will easy out works at all for such a stubborn bolt?

Re drilling how long is that bolt.

What size easy out...what size drill and how deep should I drill for best results etc.

Can I buy just that bolt (I do know a specialist fastner supplier if the spec is standard) or do I have to buy a set.

I've never had this problem before so am unfamiliar with the rules of thumb.

My gut tells me to drill the bolt to within an inch of it's life because

a) a wider-easy out will permit more torgue and

the bolt will collapse in on itself under load if the walls are thin enough.

Again...all advice appreciated.

[RicardoM]

I broke the central rear-most cylinder head bolt off where the threads start...(see black arrow in photo).

Bummer.  To get the broken bolt out, it depends where the bolt is broken. Above, flush or below the hole. See videos below.

See http://imgur.com/a/5tEzB for some of your questions.

I recommend buying new bolts.

 

 

 

 

If you have enough bolt sticking out, try first soaking it with penetrating oil, leave it a while to penetrate, then use a pair of vise grips. If that fails, you need the "red wrench" aka a lot of heat to get the bolt cherry red then use a thick candle to let the melted wax penetrate the threads then try again the vise grips.

Edited 21 October, 2015 by RicardoM

[RicardoM]

This 2-part video is full of good tips about a head gasket job.

[fpga]

Those all look great. Thanks very much indeed. The penetrating oils already in

Back soon.

[RicardoM]

In what order did you unscrew the head bolts?

[fpga]

OK just back from doing stuff...I did the bolts in the reverse order to that stated in the Haynes manual i.e. the first 4 at the front of the engine in reverse order and then the rest in reverse order. The one that broke was No 2 in the "tightenting" order so last but one in undoing order. Hope that explains.

I just came back to say...I got the head off, removed the manifolds (harder than I expected with a thin walled 13mm ring spanner) and scraped the gasket off yesterday. In the afternoon I popped it down to Gerry at Townsend Bros and Co in Stirchley, Birmingham. I picked it up at 09:00 this morning. Great bloke and great service. Gerry said he'd taken 17 thou off i.e. the head wasn't particularly warped. It was more a problem of corrosion having eaten the head (and gasket) where a seal was required. Irrespective, I'm over the moon with the service I received.

Now for the seized cylinder head bolt. I went shopping today for cobalt drills of the right size just in case the welding doesn't do it. I drew a blank. I'll have to try and find my arc welder tomorrow, I haven't used it for 20 years and am not quite sure where it is/what sort of condition it's in .

Re the photos...see if you can spot the odd combustion chamber out

Edited 23 October, 2015 by fpga

[RicardoM]

Very nice machining! 17 thou shaving is not much indeed for a corroded head. The guys saved the head, they know what they're doing. Any check for cracks too? Any valves job? Or will you grind them yourself? Will you change the valve stem seals too? Now it would be a great opportunity.

 

Once again I see that Felicia 1.3 heads / gaskets fail mostly due to corrosion. Old coolant eats hard on aluminum and surprisingly on gasket too.

 

The broken head bolt was doomed to break. It's not your fault. Coolant seeped to that bolt and weld-corroded it for months probably. Lucky enough though, you have good threads above the block to work with. You'll get it out.

 

Keep us posted. I am interested to know what surprised you during the whole head gasket job.

 

Just in case the Haynes manual has other opinion, here is the Skoda service manual bolts tightening order.

Just saw there is still coolant around liners. Didn't you empty the system? There is a bolt in front of the block right above oil presure switch for doing that. Don't forget to flush thoroughly all the rust from the cooling system. Any plan on how to remove all that mayonnaise from the lubrication system?

Edited 24 October, 2015 by RicardoM

[fpga]

____Very nice machining! 17 thou shaving is not much indeed for a corroded head.

I didn't know whether 17 thou was a lot or not so thanks for confirming it isn't. Gerry's been at it a long time and all in the trade, that I know, use him. Re any check for cracks too? Not sure but the head came back VERY clean indeed suggesting it was well inspected.

>Any valves job? Or will you grind them yourself? Will you change the valve stem seals too? Now it would be a great opportunity. No valve jobs and I hadn't planned on doing that but in truth it does sound like a very good opportunity...Thanks.

____Once again I see that Felicia 1.3 heads / gaskets fail mostly due to corrosion. Old coolant eats hard on aluminum and surprisingly on gasket too.

Yes it made a right mess of both.

____The broken head bolt was doomed to break. It's not your fault. Coolant seeped to that bolt and weld-corroded it for months probably.

Thanks for the reassurance. It does seem to be well jammed in there. It's been raining all day so I haven't had the chance to weld a nut on. Maybe tomorrow.

____Lucky enough though, you have good threads above the block to work with. You'll get it out.

Hope so

____Keep us posted. I am interested to know what surprised you during the whole head gasket job.

So far....I was surprised at how stiff the cylinder head bolts were i.e. I thought I was going to break my 10mm allen key socket on the head bolts. Also there's a closed of steel pipe sticking up through the exhaust shield (the piece of sheet steel that channels the hot air into the air cleaner). This was hidden from view and was very difficult to get a purchase on and get off. The outer nut just kept turning and the inner nut that goes into the engine was hard to get at FROM ABOVE. Once I got it, turning it broke the seal between the bit that goes in the engine and the bit attached to the outer nut.

____Just in case the Haynes manual has other opinion, here is the Skoda service manual bolts tightening order.

Thanks very much for this

____Just saw there is still coolant around liners. Didn't you empty the system? There is a bolt in front of the block right above oil presure switch for doing that. Don't forget to flush thoroughly all the rust from the cooling system. Any plan on how to remove all that mayonnaise from the lubrication system?

Thanks for the hint re the bolt. Re the oil and cooling system. I intend to get a hose into the cooling system and use flushing oil on the oil system. I'll come back when I've got that bolt out and once again...thanks very much for your help.

Edited 24 October, 2015 by fpga

[RicardoM]

No valve jobs and I hadn't planned on doing that but in truth it does sound like a very good opportunity...Thanks.

I highly recommend at least a valve leak test. See description of video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7YXgJPmV5M

 

Also there's a closed of steel pipe sticking up through the exhaust shield (the piece of sheet steel that channels the hot air into the air cleaner). This was hidden from view and was very difficult to get a purchase on and get off. The outer nut just kept turning and the inner nut that goes into the engine was hard to get at FROM ABOVE. Once I got it, turning it broke the seal between the bit that goes in the engine and the bit attached to the outer nut.

Couldn't you remove the head with both manifolds and heat shield attached as one piece? Or not enough clearance to unscrew the 4 nuts holding the front exhaust pipe?

[fpga]

Thank you for the leak test information and suggestion.

 

I liked the look of this suggestion in your video to do the test

hellcat1988 2 years ago

I did a leak test with my head by setting it on a flat surface and pouring gasoline into the combustion chamber. I friend suggested using water, but the surface tension of water wouldn't allow it to flow through the valves that showed leaks with the gas. Once I lapped the valves, the gas evaporated, but didn't leak down through.

 

 

 

Sorry for the delay in responding....I've been taking advice re getting the cracked bolt out.

I don't remember exactly why I felt the need to get that pipe out but one thing I do recall is not being able to see where it connected so I was probably uncertain whether it went into the block in any case. It might well have impeded my access/sight of the manifold to down-pipe joint though.

 

I've just contacted Startin Skoda in Worcester and apparently they can't tell me the spec of the 10mm allen key bolts because Skoda no longer offers parts for Felicias. That goes for head bolts too!

 

Someone suggested going for higher performance after market ones...Do these exist?

 

Can you tell me what the specs are please i.e. the jury's still out re whether to weld a nut on or drill the thing out.

 

Thank you in anticipation

Edited 26 October, 2015 by fpga

[RicardoM]

The head bolts are made of tensile strength steel for sure. I can't tell you exactly the specs though. It kind of sucks to not be able to get Felicia parts in UK while the Czechs have full stocks. So we'll go for plan B. You need one Felicia 1.3 head bolt from a scrapyard or from a BriSkoda member. Skoda service manual allows reusing them. I guess I was too optimistic finding a set of new ones locally. The head bolt must be rust free, no pitted or stretched. Forget about high performance bolts. We're talking about a 50kW family car stock engine here...

 

While the jury is still in deliberation phase, I wouldn't go for welding a nut on the bolt. Too risky. It's an aluminum block for once. Then you might end up freezing it for good or/and making the bolt even harder, quenching-like. So go for (left-hand) drilling. First grind the stub flat to help center punching a hole. Then use the hardest new drill bits you can find. Start with a 6mm bit. Watch for depth. Go next with a 8 mm bit. Now you'll be able to use an Easyout bit. Finally retap the hole. You need patience, a steady hand and very good bits.

 

Did you try the method described in first 2 minutes of the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-VD1yx61bA ? Use a sharp, hard punch. This way you can assess the hardness of the stub and maybe unfreeze it. Fingers crossed.

Edited 26 October, 2015 by RicardoM

[fpga]

Ricardo... You'd man! and I mean that. I tried the centre punch method the other day (just for a FEW MINUTES like the man in the video said) but Nada. As a result of your nudge I've just been out and tried again for about an hour. The photo shows the nightmare bolt and very modest tools used to remove it. I had been tapping and oiling it everyday. Thank you very much for your encouragement. I can't tell you how much appreciated it is.

[RicardoM]

Thank you. It is you that didn't give up or rushed for a solution without gathering as much information as possible. That stub looks nasty but the penetrating oil helped.

Edited 26 October, 2015 by RicardoM

[fpga]

BTW The bolt seemed very hard but that probably helped the punch to move it and send the shock down rather than just ploughing through the surface. I also think the fatness and blunt angle of the punch end helped to move rather than cut the bolt surface too.

The punch was included in an old bag of carpentry brace bits I bought from a car boot sale for pennies so it's probably quite old.

What a useful tool!

I'm over the moon and can start shopping for head bolts and gaskets now + your recommended leak test.

Again many thanks.

[fpga]

Oops...I didn't realise you'd posted between my last two posts.

In answer to your question. I tried again because you'd asked and I hadn't got the tools to do anything else so I thought I'd give it another more concerted go.

I liked the idea of this method as soon as I saw it because of the shock imparted and was disappointed that it didn't work. The bolt was so hard that I didn't really make much of a dimple due to fear of damaging what little I got projected.

This time I was more determined to make it work because having looked at how difficult the welding (without a powerful enough rig....50 amps) and drilling straight would be, centre punching seemed all the more attractive.

 

This time I made a much deeper dimple into the side of a high spot which supported my angled blows.

I was frightened of doing damage the first time...believing other methods would be superior.

The punch didn't slip now or plough the surface so I was confident enought to hit harder and at a greater angle.

Because no damage was being done and the feeling that more force was being applied than the bolt could eventually withstand I kept going

believing strongly that the penetrating oil was indeed penetrating deeper with every blow.

I think it did and the whole procedure worked great. Phew!

I'd also been adding oil and hitting the stud every day and think this had an affect to.

What a great method.

BTW it was not being able to see how the downpipe was attached to the exhaust manifold that made me want to take that exhaust shield off. I remember thinking I probably wouldn't need to if I had a ramp and could get at the joint from underneath. Hope that explains.

Edited 26 October, 2015 by fpga