1.6 TDI CR FAP (2009) : any known cooling circuit issues?

[RJVB]

Hello,

 

I have been having recurrent issues with leaks in the cooling circuit of my 2009 Octavia II Combi 1.6TDI CR FAP since this summer. First a very slow leak through a pinhole puncture of a hose somewhere at the rear of the engine (easy to find and not expensive to repair). Then, the rupture of a long hose of intriguing form, probably replaced with one of the wrong diameter for the previous owner/driver (and not by his official workshop; the car was leased and maintained by Volkswagen until about 100kkm when I bought her). It was replaced by a (better?) fitting, used hose so I could get home. A month later I had the EGR valve replaced, so another intervention involving the cooling circuit (which wasn't purged completely, just topped off afterwards).

I haven't driven much more than 1500km since that repair, and on the 27/10 I added a bit of liquid into the circuit because I reckoned it the level in the expansion chamber (?) had diminished because of the circuit had stabilised during that time. Since, I only went to the roadworthiness testing, and yesterday I found the level alarmingly low again. There's a trace under the car, where the front-left axle appears from under the bottom cover. But that doesn't mean much; I'm parking on a surface that's not level so the car is leaning a bit to her left.

 

Still, I'm taking her to the shop again this Thursday, and I topped off the circuit once more to assess how quick the level drops.

 

I hope for tranquility's sake that this will be either due to a hose that wasn't put back correctly during the valve replacement, or the 2nd-hand replacement hose mentioned above. If that's even possible when the engine isn't running.

 

Anyway, I've heard rumours of porosity issues on the cooling hoses used in the VAG group, maybe even about a recall issued for that. Is that true and relevant? Any other known issues with this system?

 

Thanks,

René

[skodacarman]

Don't know about 1.6 CR. but 1.9 TDIs have well known issues with water pumps that leak coolant. Symptoms usually include 'invisible' coolant loss due to the fluid running down behind the cam belt cover and evaporating on the hot engine block before it has a chance to drip out. Can result in cam belt damage.

[RJVB]

Hmmm, annoying! But that doesn't sound like something that should manifest itself when the car is parked, or does it?

 

I just checked: the level in the expansion chamber has dropped by about 1cm (down from half full) in the last 24h. Seems it isn't really a slow leak anymore, and I'll be taking a 10l drum with fresh water when I drive the 15km to the shop!

 

R.

[alberg]

Had water pump on mine gone at 115000km.

You may see dried water spots on the undertray on your drivers side

[RJVB]

How abrupt was that failure, and I presume that was another costly repair nowhere close to the price of changing a hose?

 

But did it leak on a cold engine that hadn't run in over a week? If the pump is in a location where it drips onto the engine block it shouldn't be a location where major leaks can occur when the fluid isn't circulating, right?

 

As I said, given how I park at least some of the liquid on the undertray will flow to the driver side, so that's not going to help much. How accessible is that pump for visual inspection?

 

Crossing my fingers it doesn't rain Thursday; I'm some 15km from the shop so any traces on the undertray will be washed away if it's wet out there.

 

Inspires a bit of a silly thought: I couldn't have created or worsened a leak by washing the car in one of those stations with DIY high-pressure things? And with that I mean without popping the hood or even directing the stream at the grills in front of the radiator?

 

And another thought: how to test if the engine or coolant temp sensor is true? Is there an independent indicator available via the diag kit, or does one have to take out a thermometer and stick it into the cooling fluid to see if it's indeed 90° when the dashboard gauge claims it is?

[skodacarman]

On my 1.9, had to remove the cam belt cover to see the leak.  The pump is driven by the belt.

[RJVB]

Great, that sounds like something that's going to take a significant amount of work already. Fortunately it isn't too cramped in there.

[alberg]

Having the amount of Kms I decided to have belts done using a Bosch kit that comes with pump. Material and labour put me back 450€

[RJVB]

I'm guessing that's what we call the "distribution" here in France. Scheduled for replacement at 180kkm if I recall correctly, but you're right, if you replacing the pump means doing a big part of the work I'll just have to cough up the cost over 50kkm (= 2 years) earlier than foreseen. It'll mean I'll have spend around 1000€ in repairs only 2 years after buying the car (for 9500€), not exactly stellar for a brand that's supposed to be very reliable :-/

[RJVB]

I just had another good look, with the engine running (and after topping off the expansion chamber where the level had dropped at or under the min. level in 48h).

 

Peering along the driver-side of the engine (left side of the car) I can see liquid on the undertray (as expected), and humidity on what's probably housing out of which the left wheel axle comes, just before the seal (though I cannot determine if that part isn't simply a bit oily).

 

The passenger side of the engine appears to be dry, including the big belt that drives the alternator and that I presume to be the "distribution" (cam belt). It does make small "chirping" noises, but so does the new belt on my wife's car when cold but as I said, I can't see any traces of fluid on it.

So on what side is the cam belt you had replaced, alberg?

 

Reassuringly, there was no sign of accelerated leakage with the engine running, during the ±5min I left it on.

[alberg]

Hehehe, sorry, distribution is on our passenger side. The pump has a small hole, 4mm maybe, so if pump internal seal starts going bad the liquid will flow out of the hole into side of engine and drop under Carter

Edited 11 November, 2015 by alberg

[RJVB]

Grrr, not much "hehehe" about all this

[Tranberg]

Are you using G12 anti-freeze with corrosion inhibitor? If you use pure water, the corrosion will be much worse.

 

Change interval for the timing/cam belt for common rail 1.6 and 2.0 diesels is 210.000 km.

[RJVB]

I'm not sure if it's G12, but yes, I do use anti-freeze with corrosion inhibitor. I don't know what the previous owner (user) did, of course but the fluid was pink when I got the car. I myself have put in regular water for topping off now and the previous times I had a leak, but that was always very temporary and I never drove far with it.

(Edit: the pink version is hard to find here and from what I understand the difference with the more common yellow fluid is only in freeze resistance to temperatures we don't get here?)

 

210000km, that's 85000km away, over 6y with my current mileage. Verdict should be tomorrow ...

Edited 11 November, 2015 by RJVB

[skodacarman]

There may yet be a sliver lining to your cloud!  The 1.9 PD motor's cam belt-driven pump is a pain to change, but some of the CR diesel motors are fitted with an electric driven pump.  If this is the case with your motor, then water pump replacement will be a much easier job.

[RJVB]

My engine does have a small electric pump, but there's apparently another pump, traditionally driven by the cam belt. Heisenberg interfered today: there were traces enough on the undertray, but it took 3 sets of eyes to detect what might be traces of a leak on a bolt near the cam belt and pump. Despite putting almost 2bar of pressure on the cooling system.

According to the chief mechanic, there's 85% chance that it's indeed the pump, and some 15% that it's some seal that is tightened when the engine is hot. I've left the car in the shop, they'll keep her overnight with some clean cardboard underneath, in hope she'll start leaking again once cooled off. Dang.

 

Anyway, he also considers that despite a claimed life expectancy of 210k km, most cam belts are best changed at the more traditional interval of about 125k or about 6y and that it won't be possible to reuse a belt that's 6y old, like mine.

 

Is there a time lapse too for the cam belt replacement (210000km OR x years)? I haven't been able to find an answer to that yet.

[Tranberg]

The Danish VW importer also stated a time interval for cambelt changes, but was ordered to withdraw it by VW headquarters in Germany, so now only the 210k km interval remains.

 

If you want to know more about the 1.6 TDI, search for self study program SSP442. I have it in German but here it is in French http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2013/08/22/ssp-442-le-moteur-1-6-l-crtdi/preview/page/1/

Edited 12 November, 2015 by Tranberg

[RJVB]

Thanks, nice! Also shows plenty of other parts that could be the next to break down

 

Seriously, if it says anything about time intervals for cam belt changes, I didn't catch it. Do you remember what the Danish importer prescribed?

[bigjohn]

Hello,

 

I have been having recurrent issues with leaks in the cooling circuit of my 2009 Octavia II Combi 1.6TDI CR FAP since this summer. First a very slow leak through a pinhole puncture of a hose somewhere at the rear of the engine (easy to find and not expensive to repair). Then, the rupture of a long hose of intriguing form, probably replaced with one of the wrong diameter for the previous owner/driver (and not by his official workshop; the car was leased and maintained by Volkswagen until about 100kkm when I bought her). It was replaced by a (better?) fitting, used hose so I could get home. A month later I had the EGR valve replaced, so another intervention involving the cooling circuit (which wasn't purged completely, just topped off afterwards).

I haven't driven much more than 1500km since that repair, and on the 27/10 I added a bit of liquid into the circuit because I reckoned it the level in the expansion chamber (?) had diminished because of the circuit had stabilised during that time. Since, I only went to the roadworthiness testing, and yesterday I found the level alarmingly low again. There's a trace under the car, where the front-left axle appears from under the bottom cover. But that doesn't mean much; I'm parking on a surface that's not level so the car is leaning a bit to her left.

 

Still, I'm taking her to the shop again this Thursday, and I topped off the circuit once more to assess how quick the level drops.

 

I hope for tranquility's sake that this will be either due to a hose that wasn't put back correctly during the valve replacement, or the 2nd-hand replacement hose mentioned above. If that's even possible when the engine isn't running.

 

Anyway, I've heard rumours of porosity issues on the cooling hoses used in the VAG group, maybe even about a recall issued for that. Is that true and relevant? Any other known issues with this system?

 

Thanks,

René

 

EGR is water cooled - properly sealed after replacement??

[RJVB]

Yes, the leak isn't coming from there, at least not when the engine is hot.

 

It's probably not impossible that the EGR housing itself leaks if not assembled properly in the factory, and I presume that'd be the kind of leak that could actually stop when the part is hot enough.

[Tranberg]

Thanks, nice! Also shows plenty of other parts that could be the next to break down

 

Seriously, if it says anything about time intervals for cam belt changes, I didn't catch it. Do you remember what the Danish importer prescribed?

 

The SSP was just to let you study the cooling circuit, It doesn't say anything about the toothed belt's life.

 

The Danish importer said 4 years up to MY 2007 and 5 years from MY 2007 upwards.

 

A person who only drives 85.000 km in seven years in a 1.6 TDI is bound to get problems with the FAP, if the car is used daily for short trips, since the FAP never gets proper hot to burn clean. If the trips are fewer, but longer, then less problems.

 

My 1.6 TDI was bought recently, 4 years old with 200k km on the odo, so it has not been used for short trips.

I got it remapped from 102 HP to 142 HP and the EGR disabled at the same time, so now the EGR won't get clogged with soot and the combustion will be better and the FAP will hopefully last longer.

[RJVB]

I got mine 2 years ago, just over 4y old, with about 100000km on the clock. I only added about 25000 in those 2 years, but the shortest distance I drive with any kind of regularity is about 10km (forth, 10km back), which is longer than required to get the temp. gauge up to 90°. The car is most used for the longer distances, some of about 2*30km, or else at least 200km on a single leg. I live in hilly terrain with many tiny country roads, which means the shorter distances do see a lot of revving changes, and I the engine for break whenever I can.

Now that I know of the EGR issues I no longer gas up on the cheapest diesel from the closest fuel station, which is supposed to help limit soothing issues (but that's not really the point here). The only thing I apparently should be doing more often is turn on the air conditioner, but I don't really see what that's good for other than my comfort when it gets well over 30°C outside.

 

Anyway, tampering with the mapping and esp. disabling an anti-emissions device is something I'd hesitate a lot doing in France. At least I wouldn't have thought about it until now that I now that the "contrôle technique" (roadworthiness testing) operators cannot check the real emission levels on any VW. Whether they have the recently discovered software or not, all of the recent models apparently have a rev limiter when the car is in neutral, which means they simply don't reach the homologation regime(s). With the pending recall and the changes to the Euro rating system that may all change.

 

Besides, 140HP from a 1.6l engine that is already tuned to put out the most power (I saw it also exists in a 55kW config)? That sounds like a huge increase for a car engine; what did that remapping do to your low-end torque? My bike engine, a 1100cc V-twin puts out 97 and less than 85 at the rear wheel (and most water-cooled 4IL bikes put out way more). So the figure itself isn't shocking, but that are vehicles that are 5-6x lighter. With the Combi's 1500kg dry weight I don't find the low-end torque particularly over-dimensioned as it is, creeping up-hill (esp. on a cold engine) for instance, and even after 2 years I still stall her more often than I care to admit (so do people who take her for the 1st time, like the RWT operator the other day).

 

But, it's good to know it is not impossible to bypass the EGR; I'll keep that in mind if it clogs again. That said, the new EGR contraption does appear to have seen some redesign that's supposed to reduce the issue.

[Tranberg]

It still doesn't have the low-end torque of my previous Fabia 1,9 TDI, but it's much more pleasant to drive now.

 

There are at least 100 1.6 TDI's remapped in tiny Denmark, without any reports of failure, in cars ranging from Polo's to Superb's, Caddy's and Touran's, with up to 70.000 km's after remapping, all engines from 75 to 105 hp are the same mechanically.

 

The next step is to fit a bigger turbo, then you can get 180 hp

 

You only use the power while accelerating, it's not like a truck pulling heavy loads over the Alps.

 

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12036547_1128742543822602_2249030686100546315_n.jpg?oh=4906f65bc269f771caebc7fc5995166e&oe=56EACC74

Edited 13 November, 2015 by Tranberg

[RJVB]

From what I recall, the official torque values of the 1.6TDI and 1.9TDI are almost identical, if anything the 1.6 is supposed to have a tad more - which I've always found surprising at the least.

 

I'm not really concerned about engine failure after remapping, but you probably do get lower average temperatures in Danemark than we get here, at least a rough 800km to the south with a much more continental climate. Air/oxygen ratios should be more favourable for engine performance (at the expensive of fuel consumption ) up north.

 

Anyway, the latest diagnosis is indeed that there's a leak from the cam area. Cam belt kit ordered; I should get the lady back come wednesday.

[RJVB]

So, one operation and about 624€ lighter, I have confirmation that it was indeed the pump that leaked, visibly so on a cold engine and through the same small hole mentioned above. We it not for the fact I had to replace the EGR earlier this year I would have just written this off as more or less preventive maintenance done at a more traditional mileage/age than what VW claims it can guarantee. Who knows, it may even prevent me from having a more catastrophic failure from one of the parts that have now been replaced, before the theoretical 210kkm limit. I'm pretty sure VAG would find a way to not pay for an engine rebuild just because the cam belt blew at say 190kmm instead of 210000 ...

 

 

On a side-note and with a thought to all those who had the engine remapped: I got a letter today stating my engine is the infamous EA189 and will be subject to a recall somewhere early next year. I'm a bit surprised: everything I'd been able to find online about this suggested that type had only been used in bigger engines than my 1.6l.

 

Not that I'm particularly concerned about losing a few HP (any idea how many?) but I cannot help but think that whatever they'll be doing during the recall is not going to help prevent build-up of sooth where one prefers not to have it.