so how many 1.6td VW, Skoda and Seat cars have had it fitted and been fully road tested?

 

 

i guess between none and zero or VAG would be shouting it from the top of the Tyrol

 

I don't think anyone has suggested they had? 

 

and if its so good, why wasnt it fitted anyway?...

 

Probably cost; it looks to me as being about a $1.50 part based on the size and approximate amount of plastic. $1.50 x millions of cars is a lot of dough. If they can avoid spending money they will. Engineers are tasked to nickel and dime every last cent out of a product. 

 

Link goes to an industrial heating website, cant see a Skoda anywhere

 

That's because its an engineering explanation of the principles of Papst flow mesh. I thought some might be interested. I'm trying to add some engineering and science to it and not just conjecture. 

 

Did you understand any of the technical content of what I was trying to explain (probably sounds rude but it's not meant to be - genuine question!)? There is a lot of sound science behind the flow straightener. 

 

"That's because its an engineering explanation of the principles of Papst flow mesh. I thought some might be interested. I'm trying to add some engineering and science to it and not just conjecture."

 

 

just none relevant to internal combustion engines though?

Edited 29 December, 201510 yr by lichfielddriver

if i said to a central heating engineer i needed my injectors testing ....

"That's because its an engineering explanation of the principles of Papst flow mesh. I thought some might be interested. I'm trying to add some engineering and science to it and not just conjecture."

just none relevant to internal combustion engines though?

Yes it is. It's all to do with airflow and how it interacts with its surrounding. CFD principles apply to IC engines, aerodynamics and much more.

The flow mesh is basically what VW is doing.

Did you not read the bit about us implementing it at work and seeing massive benefits? Nothing to do with HVAC or central heating....

if i said to a central heating engineer i needed my injectors testing ....

Completely irrelevant to the topic we are discussing.

I presume you are referring to this component:

 

 

Do you know what is actually doing and why it is there? It is not there to reduce flow; it won't make any appreciable difference to the total airflow into the engine. 

A flow straighter / transformer is there to do several things:

 

• turn turbulent flow into laminar flow
• Reducing swirl and eddies around the intake system
• Reduce noise levels (not important in this instance)

The idea is that this will sit the inlet side of the MAF and straighten the flow of air. This will allow the MAF to provide a more consistent and accuate measurement. This should allow the ECU to make a better decision and provide better results. 

We have used these at work on our latest product and it has made a massive difference. We had a problem where we had excessive noise and cooling issues where we had a 172MM fan hard against a metal framework. Our cooling expert researched and used a combination flow straightener and Papst FlowGrid design (http://www.ebmpapst.com/en/products/product-news/flowgrid/flowgrid.html). This reduced noise levels by nearly 9dB, improved cooling distribution, lowered overall test temperatures and reduced dynamic contribution from airflow. 

 

By improving the measurement windows it could in theory improve performance (either fuel or HP)

 

 

 

"That's because its an engineering explanation of the principles of Papst flow mesh. I thought some might be interested. I'm trying to add some engineering and science to it and not just conjecture."

 

 

just none relevant to internal combustion engines though?

 

 

As an interesting point that's relevant to the discussion, a flow-straightener device very similar to that in the picture is a part of the factory intake setup on a Toyota Altezza.

 

What makes it interesting, is the fact that unusually for a mass-produced small/medium sedan, the intake on them was designed within an inch of it's life - The usual thing for young guys down here in this part of the world is to throw a decent exhaust and a pod filter on (mostly without consideration of building a proper cold-air intake, isolated from the heat of the engine-bay... But that's another story). 

Remove that device from the intake and the engine will run like a bag of ****e, if it will even start.

 

Point is, if VW decide to go down that path as part of their corrective measures, it won't be a "restriction" as it may appear to the untrained eye...

As an interesting point that's relevant to the discussion, a flow-straightener device very similar to that in the picture is a part of the factory intake setup on a Toyota Altezza.

 

What makes it interesting, is the fact that unusually for a mass-produced small/medium sedan, the intake on them was designed within an inch of it's life - The usual thing for young guys down here in this part of the world is to throw a decent exhaust and a pod filter on (mostly without consideration of building a proper cold-air intake, isolated from the heat of the engine-bay... But that's another story). 

Remove that device from the intake and the engine will run like a bag of ****e, if it will even start.

 

Point is, if VW decide to go down that path as part of their corrective measures, it won't be a "restriction" as it may appear to the untrained eye...

 

Thank you for some additional information. I believe the Evo 9 and 10 also have similar devices pre MAF to improve the quality of airflow over the sensor

This article sounds like it may have understood the real purpose of the flow straightener; to facilitate better EGR control:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/12/vw-flow-straightener-really-works/

This article sounds like it may have understood the real purpose of the flow straightener; to facilitate better EGR control:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/12/vw-flow-straightener-really-works/

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

This article sounds like it may have understood the real purpose of the flow straightener; to facilitate better EGR control:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/12/vw-flow-straightener-really-works/

 

 

Gas flows are the same in engines then now?

 

doubt that very much

 

 

as i said....il go last on the crap VW serve up after the results are in

Standard IC engine procedure, maximum airflow and clean air every time......hence "big valve" heads, "ported" cylinder heads, "gas flowed" combustion chambers for ultimate combustion....

 

 

 

 

 

We had a problem where we had excessive noise and cooling issues where we had a 172MM fan hard against a metal framework................  

Gas flows are the same in engines then now?

 

doubt that very much

 

 

as i said....il go last on the crap VW serve up after the results are in

 

I doubt very much they'll be the same, but probably not in the way that you mean.

(Overwhelming) Likelihood is that higher EGR rates will be needed to bring down NOx levels, so less 'redundant' fresh air in the combustion chambers, more recycled exhaust gases instead to displace/replace the unneeded air, and so to bring down peak combustion temps.

 

As I understand it, you won't be forced to have the update, so just don't. No need to slam down everyone that tries to understand what's involved though.

Edited 30 December, 201510 yr by Wino

 

 

As I understand it, you won't be forced to have the update, so just don't. No need to slam down everyone that tries to understand what's involved though.

 

 

could I just say that seeing as we are talking about emissions no garage can check, how will we ever know VW arent just having us (and HMG) over? (again)

 

when I see NOX and CO emissions from a converted vehicle, with a dyno report and a 10,000 mie drive and mpg check i may be swayed....

 

a new government in 4 years could decide to implement the PROPER emissions VED bands and send us all a big bill and thats besides the chance our 60mpg cars become 40mpg cars, my car is my living, ive got 4 years finance to pay on it, mods that wreck my profit will need compensations...

could I just say that seeing as we are talking about emissions no garage can check, how will we ever know VW arent just having us (and HMG) over? (again)

 

when I see NOX and CO emissions from a converted vehicle, with a dyno report and a 10,000 mie drive and mpg check i may be swayed....

 

a new government in 4 years could decide to implement the PROPER emissions VED bands and send us all a big bill and thats besides the chance our 60mpg cars become 40mpg cars, my car is my living, ive got 4 years finance to pay on it, mods that wreck my profit will need compensations...

 

There'll be a hell of a lot of scrutiny and independent testing done on the vehicles, post-modification, (by both owners and the motoring press I suspect) so that should clarify what differences in economy/power/driveability (and emissions!) might exist after updates. What won't emerge so fast is changes to lifetimes of components like EGR valves, cats, DPFs.

Edited 30 December, 201510 yr by Wino

There'll be a hell of a lot of scrutiny and independent testing done on the vehicles, post-modification, (by both owners and the motoring press I suspect) so that should clarify what differences in economy/power/driveability (and emissions!) might exist after updates. What won't emerge so fast is changes to lifetimes of components like EGR valves, cats, DPFs.

 

 

So the end of my 4 year car life span might be the right time to have it done.....

I went to have a chat with my dealer about this last week. He was a) very ****ed off with VAG, looking forward to all the cash VAG are going to be paying his service engineers, and c) very clear with me that it wasn't a compulsory item - if I don't want it done, that's my call.

Mine had it's second service and they didn't mention it

 looking forward to all the cash VAG are going to be paying his service engineers, and c) very clear with me that it wasn't a compulsory item - if I don't want it done, that's my call.

 

theres always a silver lining for someone

 

pity the software only cars cant be done by anyone, open up the market

Nathanio,

 

Great post, its about time someone gave us a engineering  / scientific response to the proposed mods. Just a pity VW are not offering it themselves.

 

I totally agree with your post, I sell ventilation equipment for a job and we are constantly fighting turbulent and non laminar airflows as these adversely affect the flow of the air in the duct (automotive read inlet system). The more turbulent a system the more resistance is presented to the airflow and hence less air reaches its intended destination. So if system designers can make air flow laminar and thus create less resistance to the flow of air the more end will get to its destination.

 

In my ventilation industry the resistance is generally calculated and then a fan that is capable of dealing with that resistance is installed in the system and the system gets the airflow it requires. With a automotive set up generally speaking the initial air intake are not powered so any turbulence that occurs in the pipes will be detrimental to the airflow - straighten the flow and you increase the quantity of air getting into the engine. Simple to say - hard to achieve.

 

F1 teams spend vast amounts of money on not only the cars external aero dynamic performance but also on its internal airflows - manifolds take many hours to design and make to minimize turbulence. The front of a jet engine on a plane may look simple but the curve the inlet venturi takes is absolutely critical to the performance and efficiency of the jet engine - once again its all about smoothing the airflow into the engine so the engine can breathe.

 

An earlier post said "big valve" heads, "ported" cylinder heads, "gas flowed" combustion chambers for ultimate combustion.... " every single one of these items is to do with increasing the flow of air into a cylinder and achieves this by minimizing turbulence and thus the resistance the air creates is kept to a minimum.

 

Laminar airflow = Less resistance = more air.

 

Now, why VW did not do this initially is beyond me, it does come down to cost I'm sure BUT how much has this saga cost them - I'm sure its more than a few $ per car which is what the flow straightener would have cost them.

if you want a IC engine to function to the max it needs endless unrestricted supply of air (mainly the oxygen)

 

put it in and get it out...

 

 

Optimum engine performance and optimum emissions performance don't correlate all that well though...

Optimum engine performance and optimum emissions performance don't correlate all that well though...

 

 

you cant clean tune an engine getting dirty air, i.e. what an EGR does.....send cack back in, cack in/cack out - hence the need for clean airfilters for a start

Never mind. Carry on.

A recently retired acquaintance of mine spent his whole career designing inlet manifolds and airboxes for various racing teams and manufacturers. I ran the proposed fix by him and he agreed with what they are going to do and explained it in the same terms as our heating guys.  He said he would have also looked at the size and shape of the airbox as a cheap and cheerful fix. Apparently the whole subject of inlet flow can be based on marginal gains that are sometimes more art than science.

 

Personally I am less concerned about the flow corrector than I am about the software change, as that can make massive differences to the driving characteristics on any turbo engine.

Pesmog,

 

I'm with you on that 100% - no idea what the SW update will do till some one obtains before and after figures from dyno tests etc.