With the tech seemingly now fast becoming really workable and now producing real figures,is it time now to look at the petrol hybrids?, vehicles like the mitsibushi phev wagon selling remarkably well now, looks like the diesel vehicle is getting put into the annuls of history

Edited 16 February, 201610 yr by seboni121

I dont think it'll be that long before the Toyota hybrids outnumber diesels in the taxi ranks round here soon. 

I dont think it'll be that long before the Toyota hybrids outnumber diesels in the taxi ranks round here soon. 

 

 

Where's that?

There are a lot of prius used as taxi here

I would suggest getting a Loan of a demonstrator for a day or 3 or hire one and go on a trip.

Too many are maybe too big and heavy unless that is what you want.

 

I borrowed a LWB Kangoo Electric which was for sale (Demonstrator) for under £11,000.

I got 87 miles out of it.

 

Try a Toyota, i liked a Yaris for getting a few miles around town on electric while sounding like a forklift, 

but on a 300 mile round trip it was at least able to do it in 5 hours.

 

& these are pretty good as a Hybrid IMO.  

http://broadspeed.com/new_cars/Toyota/Auris

 

 

 

Edited 17 February, 201610 yr by GoneOffskiroottoot

Unless you want the technology or drive in a lab you'll probably be cheaper overall with a normal petrol or diesel.

 

Tax breaks for business might make things work out I suppose.

Even 4 years ago these Toyotas did the job, so if looking or thinking of a New one, maybe worth going and driving a Used one over 3 years old at some dealers and see how they are with miles on them, to get an idea how your new one will be if buying a keeper..

I would say it depends on your use.

 

If you do mostly shorter trips and have the petrol as back up they probably work well.  Doesn't require the commitment of a full battery EV.

Most of your milage will be on cheap electric.

 

But if you do a fair amount of longer trips you might find the fuel consumption in something like the Outlander PHEV a bit of a shock.

You are carrying a lot of weight as pushing around a largish vehicle with two drive systems.

Pretty much as Richard says.

 

I was able to compare my Oct TDi consumption with a Pious over the same route of 200 miles on the same date. I got better mpg (55 vs 40) and was driving faster.

I work for Toyota & Lexus and have done for 7 years or so. Bear in mind the Hybrids are technically the most complex car we have ever sold they are statistically the most reliable. We have fleet customers with Gen 2 Prius now on 250-300k still on the original hybrid battery.

 

Also remember that due to the way the regenerative braking works, the first 30% of the brake pedal travel uses the motors to slow the car down, that front pads are lasting 90k as an average, there are fewer moving parts in the hybrids, so there are no starter motors, alternators or cambelts to worry about.

 

Before you think that I've had the "chip" inserted, I still get as much fun driving my 200+ Fabia vRS TDi, so im no sandle wearing hippy, just appreciate the technology for what it is.

 

We also supply broadspeed and drive the deal and car wow as well LOL!!!

 

The success of the Mitsubishi Phev outlander is solely down to the 49g/co2 that puts it in the company car drivers BIK tax bracket of 5%. They sold over 11500 units last year, compared to Lexus as a brand selling 8000 or so in total!! 

 

Of course hardly any company car drivers will actually plug the damn things in, its just a tax avoidance thing at best. The Mitsubishi Hybrid system isn't as reliable as Toyotas, but then again we have been doing if for 13yrs plus.

 

Hybrids are not the holy grail - spend your days at 85mph on the motorway and the mpg will disappoint, compared with a modern CR diesel, but from a more mixed amount of driving, especially urban, they claw back the advantage. Major plus points are refinement and ease of use, no charging, no range worries etc. Plus they are advantageous from a taxation point of view.

 

What does annoy me is that Toyota were pretty much the pioneers of Hybrid, yet its taken the likes of Mercedes, Bmw and mitsi to "normalise" the idea and make it acceptable, something Toyota should have done years ago, but that's the brand for you

Edited 17 February, 201610 yr by Lofty

I work for Toyota & Lexus and have done for 7 years or so. Bear in mind the Hybrids are technically the most complex car we have ever sold they are statistically the most reliable. We have fleet customers with Gen 2 Prius now on 250-300k still on the original hybrid battery.

Also remember that due to the way the regenerative braking works, the first 30% of the brake pedal travel uses the motors to slow the car down, that front pads are lasting 90k as an average, there are fewer moving parts in the hybrids, so there are no starter motors, alternators or cambelts to worry about.

Before you think that I've had the "chip" inserted, I still get as much fun driving my 200+ Fabia vRS TDi, so im no sandle wearing hippy, just appreciate the technology for what it is.

We also supply broadspeed and drive the deal and car wow as well LOL!!!

The success of the Mitsubishi Phev outlander is solely down to the 49g/co2 that puts it in the company car drivers BIK tax bracket of 5%. They sold over 11500 units last year, compared to Lexus as a brand selling 8000 or so in total!!

Of course hardly any company car drivers will actually plug the damn things in, its just a tax avoidance thing at best. The Mitsubishi Hybrid system isn't as reliable as Toyotas, but then again we have been doing if for 13yrs plus.

Hybrids are not the holy grail - spend your days at 85mph on the motorway and the mpg will disappoint, compared with a modern CR diesel, but from a more mixed amount of driving, especially urban, they claw back the advantage. Major plus points are refinement and ease of use, no charging, no range worries etc. Plus they are advantageous from a taxation point of view.

What does annoy me is that Toyota were pretty much the pioneers of Hybrid, yet its taken the likes of Mercedes, Bmw and mitsi to "normalise" the idea and make it acceptable, something Toyota should have done years ago, but that's the brand for you

Thank you for that lofty , i do a lot of stop start travelling on b roads on angelsey and never go over 50mph on around 50 miles per day approx but can be as little as 20 miles per day and at 40mph max

.....there are fewer moving parts in the hybrids, so there are no starter motors,

 

Excuse a dimwits question, but how does the engine start?

 

Gaz

Also remember that due to the way the regenerative braking works, the first 30% of the brake pedal travel uses the motors to slow the car down, that front pads are lasting 90k as an average, there are fewer moving parts in the hybrids, so there are no starter motors, alternators or cambelts to worry about.

 

Could you explain how the engine starts, how electricity is generated when the car is accelerating or travelling at constant speed, oh and how the valve gear is worked (since I presume it's not a 2-smoke) please?

The electric motor which drives the transmission spins the engine over, so you get no churning of a conventional starter motor it turns and fires instantly

The petrol engine when ever it runs also acts as a generator, topping the batterys up, bear in mind the cars heating system is conventional, ie water pump, heater matrix etc etc, so the engine needs to run from cold start to warm the cabin up, obviously less so in the summer. There is a heating element in the matrix that uses some electric to maintain temp once its up there.

 

The car will decide when and what mode is best to run in, it can either be solely electric, or petrol and electric. The main hybrid battery is in a constant state of charge and discharge as you drive - hence the long lifespan of it, it'll never completely discharge or fully charge, ranging between 20 and 80% as a constant. You can once you are used to them accelerate briskly on petrol/electric, get to your desired speed, feather the throttle slightly and then the battery will take over, often at speeds of up to 45mph. It is the constant switching between petrol and electric that sees the gains in MPG.

 

When you lift off the throttle completely or are on the over-run down a hill the motor stops generating and then relys on the mechanical turning of the drive wheels to spin it up whereby it becomes a generator topping the battery up, and again that's how the regenerative braking works, the motor slows the car down scavenging more power back to the battery.

 

As long as you have fuel in the tank the car will run, it can never run out of electric.

 

The engine is what Toyota term an Atkinson Cycle engine... easier for the bofins to explain!!!

 

 

 

All spark ignition engines since the dawn of motoring have employed a four-stroke thermodynamic cycle developed in the late 19th Century by a German engineer named Nikolaus Otto. But in more recent years, a modified version of this ‘Otto’ cycle has grown in popularity.

Commonly known as the ‘Atkinson’ cycle, it has been employed in all vehicles with Lexus Hybrid Drive technology and has now been adopted in some of the manufacturer’s latest high-performance models, such as the Lexus RC F.

Why is this the case, and what is the difference between these two cycles?

The Otto Cycle

Four-stroke engines have four separate phases within a traditional Otto cycle, produced by two revolutions of the crankshaft and precise valve and ignition timing. As you can see from the animation below, these phases are: 1) intake, 2) compression, 3) combustion and 4) exhaust. Each corresponds to a full piston stroke inside the cylinder.

The cycle begins with a downward piston stroke, which draws a mixture of air and vapourised fuel through the intake port into the combustion chamber. The upward stroke of the returning piston compresses this mixture to around one-tenth of its volume, at which point it is ignited by the spark plug. This explosion drives the piston downward in a stroke that gives the engine its thrust. The final return stroke of the cycle evacuates the spent gases via the exhaust port so that the process can begin again.

But while this relatively straightforward cycle produces a satisfactory power output, it is not the most fuel-efficient means of generating power from a four-stroke piston engine. That accolade goes to engines running the Atkinson cycle.

The Atkinson Cycle

Patented in 1882 by British engineer James Atkinson, the Atkinson cycle significantly improved the fuel-efficiency of a four-stroke spark ignition engine through one particularly ingenious modification.

The four basic phases of the Otto cycle remained but Atkinson introduced a new timing sequence to delay the closing of the intake valve during the compression stroke. Keeping the intake valve open slightly longer effectively reduced the engine’s displacement during the intake cycle but retained the full ratio of expansion in the combustion or power stroke.

In simple terms, the Atkinson cycle was designed to minimise the use of fuel during the intake stroke yet exploit the part of the cycle that generates power.

How a modern Atkinson Cycle engine works

James Atkinson’s original development engine used complex mechanical linkages to produce different piston stroke ratios from the same crankshaft revolution. Though effective and incredibly clever, the design was not cost-effective for mass production. What’s more, the benefits in fuel-efficiency could only be achieved at the cost of some power – a result of the reduced engine displacement during the intake stroke. Because of these issues, Atkinson’s ingenious cycle was largely forgotten about for the best part of a century.

Fast-forward to the mid-1990s and Toyota engineers had a eureka moment when they realised that they could now generate the most vital, fuel-saving function of the Atkinson cycle engine – the delayed closing of the intake valve during the compression stroke – through non-mechanical means. This became possible with new variable valve timing technology, which used hydraulics to actuate the camshaft position and alter the timing of the intake valves.

Meanwhile, emerging hybrid drive technology was found to be the perfect means to address the Atkinson’s characteristic power shortfall. Battery-fed electric motors were used to assist the petrol engine when necessary but also provide an independent source of motivation. After all, the most effective method of fuel-saving is not to have the engine running in the first place!

See the video below for a detailed animation of how the modern Atkinson cycle engine works. It uses the 2ZR-FXE engine from the Lexus CT 200h to illustrate the functioning.

Power and efficiency

The first production car with a simulated Atkinson-type valve action and hybrid drivetrain was the 1997 Toyota Prius, while the first adoption of this technology by Lexus was found in the RX 400h of 2005. So successful has it been that every subsequent model with Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive or Lexus Hybrid Drive technology has adopted the same fuel-efficient cycle and architecture.

Further development of this valve-sequencing technology is experienced in the new high-performance yet emission-compliant Lexus RC F. The 471bhp V8 engine in this coupe (see above) uses new VVT-iE electric motor-driven variable valve timing to switch imperceptibly between combustion cycles – the more fuel-efficient Atkinson cycle when cruising and the traditional Otto cycle to deliver thrilling power.

Who would have thought that an engine technology that is over 130 years old could enable the modern Lexus driver to have his cake and eat it?

Car Throttle explains in its own style just how the Otto and Atkinson cycles work in its review of the RC F. Have a look below.

Lower servicing costs Toyota say because of less moving parts, (Brakes and drivetrain obviously still go around and round, 

but are of better quality and as said, the brakes have greater longevity.)

& they will know at the Service Desk and in the workshop what needs Inspecting, replacing and reporting on,

 

but then that could never be the case with VWG Dealers,

They would still charge £100 Plus more for a Major Inspection Service than for a Minor Oil change Service, 

even when the 'If required', items like Air & Inline filters are not required or spark plugs.

The common misconception is that the Hybrid cars are a nightmare to service, they are not. They use 0-20w oil, spark plugs every 60k and that's about it. We have never found one use oil or water, never done a head gasket, and apart from routine servicing every 10k they are as good as gold. The 0-20w oil is hybrid specific but costs exactly the same as normal 5-30w oil.

 

The main hybrid battery used to be a scare tactic used by other manufacturers, they live generally under the rear seat/boot floor, are about the same size as a flight case you can take on an aircraft and weigh a good 100kg. We have changed one in 12 years, under warranty.

 

The car has 5 yr warranty (Toyota) and the battery is 8 yrs. As a guide a battery would cost £800 ish, less than a DPF, Turbocharger or other major items, but they never go wrong in my experience.

 

I'd have no problems buying a family member a 200k mile prius as long as its got history.

 

The only issue we have found recently is other non main agents breaking things. We had a 12 reg Auris Hybrid brought in from a bodyshop, they had put a front end on it and gassed the a/c up using their normal A/c gas with the oil and UV dye in it..... Turns out that the Hybrids use a specific "dry" gas as the oil in the normal stuff shorts out various parts of the a/c compressor..... cost the bodyshop a tidy packet!

It all sounds very positive.

 

I look forward to hearing how VWG UK Dealerships get on with the Servicing and maintenance in the next few years with the Golf GTE & Audi E-trons, and how they are out of warranty, and costs later in life.

and then the Skoda Kodiak if they go ahead with Duel Power / Hybrids with them.

 

Not heard much yet on the Spark Plugs with the ACT / COD engines and the service Interval schedules on them.

 

Discounts can be had if this is the size of car anyone is after and does not want a diesel.

http://broadspeed.com/new_cars/Toyota/RAV4

 

 

Edited 18 February, 201610 yr by GoneOffskiroottoot

The electric motor which drives the transmission spins the engine over, so you get no churning of a conventional starter motor it turns and fires instantly

You asserted that hybrids don't have starter motors or alternators. You're now saying that they use the drive motor as a magneto. So they have exactly one less moving component in the electrical system than a conventional car.

 

You also asserted that "they don't have camshafts". You're now saying that they run on the "Atkinson Cycle", which uses different valve and ignition timing to the "Otto Cycle", but still needs the same valve and ignition gear.

Where have I said they don't have camshafts? Cambelts I said.

 

Post 10

Edited 18 February, 201610 yr by Lofty

Where have I said they don't have camshafts? Cambelts I said.

 

Post 10

Ok, so I misread that. It's still complete nonsense since the camshaft(s) must be driven at a fixed speed relative to the crankshaft, and not having a cambelt just means using a rattly chain or whiny gears  as the cam drive instead.

Good cars though from the No.1 Biggest Car Manufacturer in the World.

They had Supply Issues, recalls and issues but were open and honest, we hope.

 

More than can be said for the No.1 Biggest Car Manufacturer in the World this time last year.

VW were neither open or honest and after decades have failed to get to grips with Chains, Tensioners, Belts, Seals, Door Seals, 

Painting and Anti Corrosion, even electrics.

Recalls not their best Customer Services success either.

3 Year Warranties only 2 years in some world regions.

 

Vorsprung Durch Technik.

Lets hope the Volkswagen Group have learned something in the past 12 months.

All the best with their future hybrids.

I'm waiting to see what happens in a few years when the batteries on all these hybrids start collapsing. If the cars are say 10 years old and not worth much, the cost of a new battery pack may well write the car off. This, I guess may lead to the collapse of the hybrid car... well possibly.

Lots of Euro 5 Emission cars that were purchased with £2,000 from the scrappage scheme are near ready for scrapping now, 

and have been fitted with Defeat Devices by the likes of VW.

Then the DPF issues and others.

 

10 year old car that need a couple of thousand spent to stay on the road is not unusual is it.

What is annoying is under 5 year old cars that VW built Engines for that need £4-5 Thousand spent on, 

and gearboxes at £4,000 when just out of Warranty.

I wouldn't buy a car that needed £2,000 spent on it one guaranteed hit. it will be interesting to see if the seller pays for the batteries if they recoup their investment. Time will tell.  I was thinking of the 10 year old car as more of a 'trading for something newer' scenario though

Edited 18 February, 201610 yr by Lady Elanore