Hi guys

Today I would like to talk about a situation happened to a friend of mine and to ask for your opinion.

 

He had to travel far from home and his Felicia 1.3 MPI started suddenly to misfire badly (on one cylinder apparently). He called me and asked for help. He is a normal guy with little knowledge about engines. I couldn't do much on the phone, other than tell him to check the spark plugs and listen for any strange noise. He called me later and said that all looks and sounds fine. I advised him to go to the nearest car workshop and let me know what they suggest after diagnosing the car. He didn't call me that day so I presumed he solved the problem. Two days later he came with his car to my garage. The engine had the same misfire. He told me the mechanics at the workshop scanned the computer and found a lambda sensor error code. They claimed the car needs a new lambda sensor. My friend agreed because the mechanics said they were confident it is a common problem and it only takes an hour to change the sensor. Well... as you would have expected the sensor put quite a fight and three hours later they finally returned the car having a new sensor. Except the engine had the same misfire My friend had to pay for the sensor and labour. I checked the engine and found a bent intake push rod... I replaced it, adjusted the valve clearance and no more misfire.

 

So here is my question: how do you deal with this type of situations in the UK? Who pays for a bad diagnose?

I'm also interested to see the answers!

I definately wouldn't even look at the lambda sensor with a view to curing a misfire on one cylinder. I'm intruged to know how the pushrod got bent? Was the valve or rocker operated by that pushrod tight/seized?

I'm intruged to know how the pushrod got bent? Was the valve or rocker operated by that pushrod tight/seized?

You're right. After I wrote the topic I had second thoughts too. I've suspected bad lubrication on the corresponding rocker. So I dismantled all the rockers to have a look at the rocker arm shaft. The photos below are self explanatory. The car is still in my garage waiting for a second hand shaft and rockers in much better shape. I will change the oil filter and the oil too.

 

But the main question for you guys still remains. It's not about how to diagnose yourself this particular kind of problem. It is about the workshop policy. They misdiagnosed the problem then replaced a part that didn't solve the problem, yet asked the customer to pay for the part and the labour... So what is the policy of the workshops in the UK for a similar situation? Does the customer have to pay for unnecessary new parts?

 

 

 

Before this topic goes into oblivion from total silence, let me ask you this:

• don't you guys ever got shafted by local garages and asked to pay for unnecessary parts?
• if yes, is it allowed to say it publicly? I hope this is not one of those 'national pride' situations..

Ricky, dear boy, you're asking the question in the wrong place. 99% of the people in this section tend to be diagnosing and rectifying issues either on their own, or through the forum, not going to a garage. Given that, on numerous occasions, you've exploded in outrage that non-automotive subjects have even been mentioned in a car group, it is exceptionally ironic that you've chosen to ask a legal question here.

 

However, before you explode in your usual tirade of comical anger towards myself, I would humbly suggest you ask the question here:  http://www.briskoda.net/forums/forum/82-off-topic-chat/    where it will reach a far greater audience and you stand a sporting chance of getting a more comprehensive answer.

 

To answer your post above though (keeping on-topic with the off-topic as it were):

1) Yes, happens to a lot of people I know, not just on automotive issues.

2) Yes, name and shame is very much part the culture these days. Usually bad reviews travel faster, carry more weight, and are posted all over the place without request. Whereas good reviews are usually have to be asked for. This goes for large companies (Halfords, PCWorld for example) as well as small ones.

 

There is legal re-course in these circumstances, but as the dominican republic isn't under UK legal jurisdiction, I don't see how this would help your inquiry.

Edited 4 May, 201610 yr by RainbowFire

Dear RainbowFire

I don't know why you feel appropriate to use a condescendent tone towards me. I am not your son (I am 52), I don't remember you beying one of my teachers in college, and most importantly, I am very confident I can't learn anything good from you. Your contribution in this section is very limited, you only excel by feeding from hate and conflicts. As soon as you smell one, you are like a fly over... it. In this instance I remind you that you're not a moderator to decide where this topic belongs. In case you've missed it, the topic has already technical value for this section by describing an issue and a solution. I decided to share my friends' experience because somebody else might learn from it. Furthermore, I asked about members' similar experience on a human level. I understand that on this forum you don't have to be a subject of HM to be able to ask questions and compare things. Judging by your consistent arrogance and sarcasm, I'm sure you feel it should be mandatory for foreign members to have your royal permission.

 

Anyway, I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and I invite the rest of forum members to be more open on the issue in question. It is not about putting stamps on a country. Everybody knows there are bad apples everywhere. I only wanted to know if I am missing something when I believe customers shouldn't be charged for bad calls on a technical issue followed by throwing new parts on car. The customer didn't ask for new parts, he was very happy with the old, still good one thank you very much.

Edited 4 May, 201610 yr by RicardoM

Did he pay for the diagnosis? is there a labour line for diagnosis. If there's no charge ..then it was a guess. Either way it would be extremely unlikely to be a lambda sensor for a misfire on just cylinder. Most of my work is from "been to another garage ".

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My friend payed for the diagnosis, of course. He had good faith and trusted the mechanics as he is a regular guy with no car mechanics knowledge. The problem is the mechanics didn't repair the car yet they asked (rather aggressive) for the sensor cost and the labour to change it. Do you see any foul play? Because I do. In a decent garage, the cost of unnecessary parts installed due to a misdiagnose is supported by the mechanics or they put the old part back undamaged.

I agree that's not right. In the garages I have worked in. .We would be fixing it for free if we had made a **** up. Sounds more like a brothel than a garage.

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Have to agree that sounds plain wrong. It might be different (but still wrong) if it was something harder to get at or unique to Felicia's but a lambda sensor is going to take about 20 minutes to swap back and it would be reusable on any number of other cars so it's the sort of thing they could keep in stock anyway.

An old lambda sensor could be a pig to get out, not 3 hours anyway. But that is not the point. They shouldn't had changed it at all in the first place. It was nothing wrong with it. Sadly I see (looking on other forums) that such workshop policy exists in other countries too (the USA, Mexico, France, Italy). The mechanics claim "well... the new part didn't fix your car but we can't let you get away having a new part on your car for free!". To them it doesn't matter they screwed things up and the new part was unnecessary. They force it on the customer's throat anyway (labour + VAT included). Unbelievable...

There is no way the lambda sensor or the fitting of it should have been charged for in this example. I don't even follow the logic of replacing that to cure a misfire on one cylinder.

 

But, how about this example that I just made up?. A customer brings a car with a suspension noise on the N/S front. Mechanic looks and quickly spots an obviously broken spring that's about to damage the tyre. Customer quoted for new spring and agrees to have it replaced. Mechanic fits the spring, road tests the car ,but there is still a knocking noise because there is also some wear on the anti roll bar link joint. In this example I agree that the spring and labour for it should be charged for [and the situation explained to the customer properly] even though it didn't completely cure the noise fault.

There is no way the lambda sensor or the fitting of it should have been charged for in this example. I don't even follow the logic of replacing that to cure a misfire on one cylinder.

 

But, how about this example that I just made up?. A customer brings a car with a suspension noise on the N/S front. Mechanic looks and quickly spots an obviously broken spring that's about to damage the tyre. Customer quoted for new spring and agrees to have it replaced. Mechanic fits the spring, road tests the car ,but there is still a knocking noise because there is also some wear on the anti roll bar link joint. In this example I agree that the spring and labour for it should be charged for [and the situation explained to the customer properly] even though it didn't completely cure the noise fault.

 

Then you've only done half the job :p  I brought my car to you to resolve a noise, that noise has not been resolved. Whilst your honesty is admired for pointing out a potential further issue, the fault that the car was brought in for still exists. You may have explained it properly, but the implied contract was to resolve the noise. It would be a different kettle of fish if you were unable to diagnose the fault, ergo no parts changed.....you would still be able to charge a reasonable amount for labour to investigate the problem. But then, in this example brought up by Ricky, what happens in one country doesn't apply in another. It may be that the "normal" standard course of business in the dominican republic is to rip people off, with little recourse. The situation in the UK is different, there is a certain amount of legal protection in these matters. (We have "paid under duress/protest" for example) This  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1fdlwC9xzyxjCpWMlsCGG3j/supply-of-services  gives a good rundown, in laymans terms, what is and isn't, but again, it's UK law.

 

Apparently, there was a "diagnosis", would there not have been corresponding paperwork to demonstrate this? Any half-way decent path of recourse would require this, otherwise the garage would be able to say "sorry? Who brought what in? No, no evidence of that.....must be chancer looking for a freebie." If it were to proceed to a legal level, supporting paperwork would be required.

 

As for the lamdba sensor, that's easy: "it's something broken, but you can't see it, sir. So you won't know what you're looking for, so you won't know if we have actually changed it."....... for example: you can see a flat tyre, and you can see when it's been fixed, even as a layman you can tell see the difference. A sensor tucked away somewhere............different game.

There is no way the lambda sensor or the fitting of it should have been charged for in this example.

That is good enough for me, thanks Dave. There are good workshops and bad workshops in here like everywhere in the world. Although we have a judicial system too TYVM and the job had full paperwork, I was more interested in a comparison between workshops' policies. As a DIY technician my garage policy is 'I screw up, I pay'. Luckily that didn't happen so far because I am careful not to damage anything. But I've read that the policy of replacing unneeded parts is quite extended in more 'civilized' countries too (whatever that might mean). What is more puzzling to me is that those workshops are still in business...

Now let's have a laugh on how 'mechanics' deal with women as customers