EGR problems - valve or sensor? Fault P046C00 + P040700

[student91]

Dear all,

Many thanks to you all for lending a helpful hand and contributing to the wealth of knowledge.

Quick background: 1.6 tdi Fabia 2010 on 140k miles, I got the dreaded flashing glowplugs recently - popped up soon after starting the car, associated with limp home mode. It'll go (usually) when I turn the engine off and on, and doesn't always appear. Got some diagnostics done (not VCDS yet) which pointed towards the EGR (according to my googling):

P046C00 Exhaust gas recirculation sensor A circuit range/performance (state: active/static)

P040700 Exhaust gas recirculat.Sensor B Circuit-Low (state: passive/abiogenesis)

My question is how to determine whether it's a valve problem which needs replacing, or a sensor problem? Can either be replaced, must both be changed? I'm not familiar with this part. Some threads indicate that it can be a very costly repair (£1000+), while others suggest the part is not that expensive off eBay and an indipendent can do it in a few hours?

Some guidance would be really appreciated, as I start work in a few weeks and need my car for then. Thank you all for your time!

Edited 1 June, 2016 by student91

[xman]

On my old mk1 1.2htp, which is a petrol engine, the sensor was part of the egr valve, so you changed both together.

It may be different for a 1.6 cr diesel. Is that the engine where the egr valve is in a pig of a place up at the back of the engine and takes best part of a day to replace?

[delta925]

With 140k on the clock could it be better to cut your losses than pay out to resolve this if an independent can not do it reasonably as other expensive work could also be needed

 

unless already replaced the DPF could need changing soon.

 

The  service book simply states to replace the cambelt at 210000 km i.e.131000 miles. While apart it is recommended to replace the water pump. However VAG now also recommend replacement at 5 years regardless of mileage so has this been done? It seems difficult to be certain if across the VAG range the 1.6CR TDI was always fitted with the Continental lifetime belt or not.

 

Sadly the days of expecting to run a VAG diesel engine, and indeed many others, for 200000+ miles with just regular servicing and cambelt changes seem to be over.

Edited 1 June, 2016 by delta925

[student91]

With 140k on the clock could it be better to cut your losses than pay out to resolve this if an independent can not do it reasonably as other expensive work could also be needed

While I think the DPF is probably in alright nick, I take your point about selling the car and moving on. My first pay check is around the corner so it's a possibility. But at least with this car I know the issues, I worry that another second hand car will come with its own woes. But 140k on the clock... I do take your point. Just the small matter of selling it on with these flashing glow plugs - We Buy Any Car are offering 1500ish. Maybe if I reset the codes it'll go a while without complaining.

BUT IF I can get this done for less than the value of the car, hopefully in less than a couple hundred quid, I'll much prefer to do that. That's what I'm curious to know.

Edited 2 June, 2016 by student91

[student91]

From what I've been reading here, there are a few options:

1) Expensive replacement, with labour being the main cost because of where it is located in the 1.6 tdi. ~£800

2) Cleaning, although I assume you still need to access the egr which requires all the same labour.

3) Map out the egr, couple hundred quid? I'd really like to look into this option and if there are any adverse consequences.

I'll continue my reading but look forward to your more educated opinions and experiences!

[delta925]

While I think the DPF is probably in alright nick, I take your point about selling the car and moving on. My first pay check is around the corner so it's a possibility. But at least with this car I know the issues, I worry that another second hand car will come with its own woes. But 140k on the clock... I do take your point. Just the small matter of selling it on with these flashing glow plugs - We Buy Any Car are offering 1500ish. Maybe if I reset the codes it'll go a while without complaining.

BUT IF I can get this done for less than the value of the car, hopefully in less than a couple hundred quid, I'll much prefer to do that. That's what I'm curious to know.

 

 

My thought was simply being aware of other work that could be needed soon.

 

Certainly if you can get this sorted for a couple of hundred and no other known issues it is worth doing but I would be very hesitant to spend £500+ and effectively be committed to keeping the car for a while only to for something else expensive to be needed before long.

 

Indeed another car potentially comes with woes, far more people now keep a car until they know a big bill is looming be it one item or e.g. cambelt, several e.g. major service + tyres + brake discs and pads + battery or there is an intermittent fault.

 

Much depends how new / low mileage you could afford to go. Only by paying the premium from a major dealer so getting a inspection report and warranty worth more than the paper it is printed on can you realistically get much recompense if there are issues.. The best deal can be a non-franchise trade-in they want to move on quickly else will send to auction. Very low mileage as well as overpriced can come with issues. I was once advised of a car due in off mobility that was 3 years old and 8k miles. Given it was the parent of a disabled child my thought was lots of short journeys so never properly run in or rarely getting properly warm. Cars previously owned by district nurses, home helps etc are potential bad buys too.

 

When I last changed the car was approaching 120k miles. My alternative was to payout for a major service and cambelt then trust no other significant bill e.g. clutch for three years / 25000 miles not to mention inconvenience.

[xman]

Better the devil you know. IF there are no other high expenditure known issues, then £800 spent may be worth it for a couple of years more motoring.

How much would you have to spend to get a completely sorted equivalent car?

Put into perspective, a set of tyres and a major service could cost the same and you wouldnt sell up because of that, would you?

[student91]

My thought was simply being aware of other work that could be needed soon.

 

Certainly if you can get this sorted for a couple of hundred and no other known issues it is worth doing but I would be very hesitant to spend £500+ and effectively be committed to keeping the car for a while only to for something else expensive to be needed before long.

 

Indeed another car potentially comes with woes, far more people now keep a car until they know a big bill is looming be it one item or e.g. cambelt, several e.g. major service + tyres + brake discs and pads + battery or there is an intermittent fault.

 

Much depends how new / low mileage you could afford to go. Only by paying the premium from a major dealer so getting a inspection report and warranty worth more than the paper it is printed on can you realistically get much recompense if there are issues.. The best deal can be a non-franchise trade-in they want to move on quickly else will send to auction. Very low mileage as well as overpriced can come with issues. I was once advised of a car due in off mobility that was 3 years old and 8k miles. Given it was the parent of a disabled child my thought was lots of short journeys so never properly run in or rarely getting properly warm. Cars previously owned by district nurses, home helps etc are potential bad buys too.

 

When I last changed the car was approaching 120k miles. My alternative was to payout for a major service and cambelt then trust no other significant bill e.g. clutch for three years / 25000 miles not to mention inconvenience.

 

 

Better the devil you know. IF there are no other high expenditure known issues, then £800 spent may be worth it for a couple of years more motoring.

How much would you have to spend to get a completely sorted equivalent car?

Put into perspective, a set of tyres and a major service could cost the same and you wouldnt sell up because of that, would you?

 

I do take the point to consider this option seriously. I may well go for it. Unfortunately the fact remains, I doubt anyone will buy the car if in a 10 min test drive the glow plugs start flashing and the car goes in limp! Ideally a lower cost fix that doesn't need me to invest into this car would be great to enable me to trade out of this 140k miler!

[bluecar1]

depends on the history of the car with you,

 

how long you had it, if more than a few years has it needed nothing but basic servicing? if so and you are happy to keep it another year or so then the cost of the EGR would be worth considering

 

if it is new to you or has a history of regular small niggles then may be time to get rid

 

changing the EGR on a 1.6TDi is not an easy job due to location and it has a water cooled element to it as well, have a look on the yeti forum as there is more info over there

[student91]

depends on the history of the car with you,

 

how long you had it, if more than a few years has it needed nothing but basic servicing? if so and you are happy to keep it another year or so then the cost of the EGR would be worth considering

 

if it is new to you or has a history of regular small niggles then may be time to get rid

 

changing the EGR on a 1.6TDi is not an easy job due to location and it has a water cooled element to it as well, have a look on the yeti forum as there is more info over there

 

Been having a look round the Yeti forum - useful, thank you for the pointer. In particular http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/393235-egr-valve-issues/?hl=+egr and http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/374545-limp-mode/?hl=+egr

 

I'm gonna get a full VCDS done this weekend but from all the reading... Whether it's VAG's fault for the emissions scandal or whatever, looks like mapping out the EGR is the best option. Anyone have any idea how to go about doing that? Is it possible to figure out if I sit with a VCDS for a couple hours + Google? Forking out £1k+parts is just not an option, driving in limp indefinitely isn't an option, and I can't sell a car with flashing glowplugs!

Edited 3 June, 2016 by student91

[student91]

VCDS Update

 

Since clearing the codes a few days ago when I started this thread, I've managed to get a full VCDS today. Both EGR sensor faults came up again, but separately, one after clearing and cycling ignition. (As for the other fault, my AC has never worked something about the compressor so, whether the other fault is relevant or not I'm not sure.)

 

This is the extent of my knowledge of what to do now, I'll keep googling but if you have any guidance on what to do, whether it can be done with some non-mechanic car enthusiasts or if it definitely needs a big repair, or remap...?

 

 

01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 0010

03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000

08-Auto HVAC -- Status: Malfunction 0010

09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000

15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000

17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000

19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000

25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000

44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000

56-Radio -- Status: OK 0000

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine (J623-CAYB)       Labels: 03L-906-023-CAY.clb

   Part No SW: 03L 906 023 DM    HW: 03L 906 023 DL

   Component: 1,6l R4 CR td H13 6315  

   Revision: --------    Serial number:               

   Coding: 00114014000500080000

   Shop #: WSC 13765 031 00050

   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM16TDI02103L906023DM 001003

   ROD: EV_ECM16TDI02103L906023DJ.rod

   VCID: 74EDE863DFD4209E6A-8020

 

1 Fault Found:

7563 - EGR Sensor 1 

          P046C 00 [096] - Implausible Signal

          Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear

             Freeze Frame:

                    Fault Status: 00000001

                    Fault Priority: 2

                    Fault Frequency: 2

                    Mileage: 228942 km

                    Date: 2016.06.03

                    Time: 07:54:33

 

Readiness: 0000 0000

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104)       Labels: 6R0-907-37x-ABS80.lbl

   Part No SW: 6R0 907 379 S    HW: 6R0 907 379 AB

   Component: ABS8.2 front  H03 0001  

   Revision: --------    

   Coding: 400100DB007200B3022D00E400DA00000000

   Shop #: WSC 13765 790 00050

   VCID: 4E995A8B1DB82A4EBC-801A

 

No fault code found.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 08: Auto HVAC (J301)       Labels: 6R0-820-045-9AP.clb

   Part No SW: 5J0 820 045 B    HW: 5J0 820 045 B

   Component: Climatic       12 0670  

   Revision: 0003S 12    

   VCID: 244DD82327B4F01E3A-8070

 

1 Fault Found:

00819 - High Pressure Sensor (G65) 

            002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

             Freeze Frame:

                    Fault Status: 01100010

                    Fault Priority: 2

                    Fault Frequency: 67

                    Reset counter: 5

                    Mileage: 225268 km

                    Time Indication: 0

                    Date: 2010.07.14

                    Time: 14:12:52

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519)       Labels: 6R0-937-08x-09.clb

   Part No SW: 6R7 937 087 F    HW: 6R7 937 087 F

   Component: PQ2

[deleted for length - Student91]

 

 

 

Cleared the codes, turned the engine on, got flashing glowplugs immediately! So ran again: 

 

 

VCDS Version: Release 15.7.4 Running on Windows 7 x86

Data version: 20160216

www.Ross-Tech.com

 

Saturday,04,June,2016,10:57:53:28431

 

Chassis Type: 5J (6N0)

Scan: 01 03 08 09 15 17 19 25 44 56

 

VIN: TMBFJ25J4B3051829   Mileage: 228960km-142269miles

 

01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 0010

03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000

08-Auto HVAC -- Status: Malfunction 0010

09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000

15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000

17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000

19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000

25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000

44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000

56-Radio -- Status: OK 0000

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine (J623-CAYB)       Labels: 03L-906-023-CAY.clb

   Part No SW: 03L 906 023 DM    HW: 03L 906 023 DL

   Component: 1,6l R4 CR td H13 6315  

   Revision: --------    Serial number:               

   Coding: 00114014000500080000

   Shop #: WSC 13765 031 00050

   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM16TDI02103L906023DM 001003

   ROD: EV_ECM16TDI02103L906023DJ.rod

   VCID: 74EDE863DFD4209E6A-8020

 

1 Fault Found:

7343 - EGR Sensor 2 

          P0407 00 [167] - Signal too Low

          MIL ON - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear

             Freeze Frame:

                    Fault Status: 00000001

                    Fault Priority: 2

                    Fault Frequency: 1

                    Mileage: 228960 km

                    Date: 2016.06.04

                    Time: 10:55:30

 

Readiness: 1010 0000

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104)       Labels: 6R0-907-37x-ABS80.lbl

   Part No SW: 6R0 907 379 S    HW: 6R0 907 379 AB

   Component: ABS8.2 front  H03 0001  

   Revision: --------    

   Coding: 400100DB007200B3022D00E400DA00000000

   Shop #: WSC 13765 790 00050

   VCID: 4E995A8B1DB82A4EBC-801A

 

No fault code found.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 08: Auto HVAC (J301)       Labels: 6R0-820-045-9AP.clb

   Part No SW: 5J0 820 045 B    HW: 5J0 820 045 B

   Component: Climatic       12 0670  

   Revision: 0003S 12    

   VCID: 244DD82327B4F01E3A-8070

 

1 Fault Found:

00819 - High Pressure Sensor (G65) 

            002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

             Freeze Frame:

                    Fault Status: 01100010

                    Fault Priority: 2

                    Fault Frequency: 1

                    Reset counter: 5

                    Mileage: 228960 km

                    Time Indication: 0

                    Date: 2010.10.26

                    Time: 10:52:31

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519)       Labels: 6R0-937-08x-09.clb

   Part No SW: 6R7 937 087 F    HW: 6R7 937 087 F

   Component: PQ25 BCM      H11 0017  

   Revision: -1------ 

[deleted for length - Student91]

 

Edited 4 June, 2016 by student91

[Tech1e]

Looks like the EGR valve and if it's never been regassed the AC might be low, but if it's not worked for ages chances are it's knackered the compressor by now. Need to vac out the system and test for leaks.

[student91]

Looks like the EGR valve and if it's never been regassed the AC might be low, but if it's not worked for ages chances are it's knackered the compressor by now. Need to vac out the system and test for leaks.

 

Yes when I bought the car about 3 years ago I tried to get it regassed but he said the compressor had gone. Hopefully that's a separate issue to the one I've got now with the EGR? Admittedly, I've never had fault codes for the AC issue as far as I recall.

 

Also, could it just be a sensor issue or is that irrelevant / just as costly fix?

Edited 4 June, 2016 by student91

[student91]

It's a 2010 car (bought in 2013 second hand with lots of Skoda service stamps), I haven't serviced with them though. The emissions scandal doesn't seem to offer me anything for this either as no proof it causes a problem.

 

Is there anything I could "try" if I do have to shell out for a £600 replacement? 

[Tech1e]

You need to have the fault diagnosed. All of it in here although educated is still guesswork.

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

Sensor 1 & 2 are position sensors for the potentiometer within the egr valve.

There are no external sensors.

[student91]

Sensor 1 & 2 are position sensors for the potentiometer within the egr valve.

There are no external sensors.

Ah ok so the whole thing needs replacing anyway? Thanks for your help!

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

Afraid so

[student91]

Have a quote for 600...just to ask if anyone knows an option other than replacement that someone can do, eg. Remap? 600 for a car worth 2k feels... Wrong. But I can't sell it like this in limp, worthless.

[xman]

The car is not worth 2k until you have spent that 600.

It will add to the sellability if you have it done, although you will probably want to keep it - the sensible option based on pure economics. Over another 2 years its six pounds a week, how much do spend on petrol, or beer?

600 is what, cost of insurance? A set of 4 tyres and some brake work? Cambelt change and a service? Less than half a years council tax?

[student91]

The car is not worth 2k until you have spent that 600.

It will add to the sellability if you have it done, although you will probably want to keep it - the sensible option based on pure economics. Over another 2 years its six pounds a week, how much do spend on petrol, or beer?

600 is what, cost of insurance? A set of 4 tyres and some brake work? Cambelt change and a service? Less than half a years council tax?

Well all I can say is... I'm glad I don't pay Council Tax! But I see where you're coming from and it does make it less painful

I'm fortunate that my car has treated me very well over the last 3 years without much expense so I should be happy it waited this long for me to start work until it demanded something back! My main concerns were (a) doing something unnecessarily expensive or ( getting ripped off. Both my concerns have been allayed here so righty ho better get booked in then.

[delta925]

I feel for you as an expensive component replacement like this is very different to servicing, tyres, cambelt etc which can be budgeted for.

Is the £600 price from a VAG specialist independent rather than a franchised dealer given that the job takes several hours due to poor design?

[student91]

I feel for you as an expensive component replacement like this is very different to servicing, tyres, cambelt etc which can be budgeted for.

Is the £600 price from a VAG specialist independent rather than a franchised dealer given that the job takes several hours due to poor design?

I'm not really sure, they seen to be a highly considered garage but not VAG specialist. I trust they have access to material which points out where it is to them, and the tools/expertise to extract the part? I would be worried though if they didn't realise the extent of the job and turn around to me at the end of it demanding a higher labour charge. But in that case surely my quotation stands up and... It is less than what others quoted me by some amount!

[xman]

I think most garages nowadays subscribe to and have access all manufacturers proceduces and labour times.

[delta925]

I'm not really sure, they seen to be a highly considered garage but not VAG specialist. I trust they have access to material which points out where it is to them, and the tools/expertise to extract the part? I would be worried though if they didn't realise the extent of the job and turn around to me at the end of it demanding a higher labour charge. But in that case surely my quotation stands up and... It is less than what others quoted me by some amount!

 

As I understand so long as a quotation not an estimate if they have underestimated the time they can not ask for more. Much depends on their hourly rate. If say £50 rather than £100 and the job is 6 hours then a £300 difference.

 

I'm sure they will have access to the details of the procedure and tools required. The key is if they have done a few so have found the hard way what the instructions don't say.

Edited 11 June, 2016 by delta925