Help with 4 wheel alignment results

[TobyMTDI]

I got a 4 wheel alignment on a local garage that has a Hunter rig today after having changed tyres + swapped to eibach pro kit springs, but there were a couple of problems. Has anyone else had these problems and what can I do about them?

- Front toe only - the front right camber hasn't been adjusted, I wasn't given an explanation and only noticed after I'd got home

- Rear camber at max adjustment - they've adjusted both sides to be the same, but at -2deg02s I'm a bit worried about premature wear on the tyres

- Rear toe seized - the tyre place said I needed to get it cut off by a mechanic, but I don't know how bad it is (plus gas and patience might get it undone?). Presumably I'll have to pay for another alignment once I get that sorted, which is pain.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Edited 2 August, 2016 by TobyMTDI

[m0bov]

Can u post up a photo of the results? I don't see the point in paying for a Hunter alignment unless they all come out green.

[TobyMTDI]

No problem:

 

 

I agree - I was a bit miffed when I went to pick the car up!

[skomaz]

Don't think I'd have paid for that - it looks like it's not had a full 4 wheel alignment done - all they seem to have done is the front tracking...

[Tilt]

Was it F1, by any chance??????????

 

How did they (whomever) charge you, and how much? (ie flat rate or per adjustment).

 

For some reason my front right camber could not be adjusted correctly, but they did overcharge me anyway. I got £40 refunded after contacting their head office.

Edited 3 August, 2016 by Tilt

[TobyMTDI]

It wasn't F1, I think it was a flat rate plus £10 per adjustment, and I was only charged for the one adjustment so I suppose that's fair enough. Cost £45 total. If I wasn't in such a rush I might have asked a few more questions and maybe paid a bit less!

Anyway, ignoring the company, is there anything that can be done about the max adjustment problem?

[sniper29a]

Eibach Kit lowers your car and screw up whole geometry. Unless you buy Powerflex adjustable stuff, you can only dream.

I always wonder you people always fall for marketing bull****. Car lowering doesn't help anything. Spring rate and correct geometry is king.

OEM setup is +- 1 deg ??? With at least 20mm drop, whole setup is many degrees off.

Edited 4 August, 2016 by john999boy
Abuse removed!

[TobyMTDI]

Please, try and keep the discussion polite. I disagree that people who tune their cars are idiots.

Yes, the eibach pro kit lowers the car. That's rather the point of lowering springs. However, as they are the same part as the (once) dealer available sports suspension it's hardly radical tuning. Plenty of people have fitted this kit without problems, so I wondered if there was something I could do to solve the problem.

I bought the kit for the increased spring rate and the the fact it improves the aesthetics of my car. I like how they look and how they perform, at no point did I fall for any marketing. I did plenty of research and chose what was best for me.

I wonder, did the factory sports suspension option have different control arms to account for the increased camber from the lowering springs? Or does the factory option simply have increased camber, and I shouldn't be concerned?

[sniper29a]

Please, try and keep the discussion polite. I disagree that people who tune their cars are idiots.

Yes, the eibach pro kit lowers the car. That's rather the point of lowering springs. However, as they are the same part as the (once) dealer available sports suspension it's hardly radical tuning. Plenty of people have fitted this kit without problems, so I wondered if there was something I could do to solve the problem.

I bought the kit for the increased spring rate and the the fact it improves the aesthetics of my car. I like how they look and how they perform, at no point did I fall for any marketing. I did plenty of research and chose what was best for me.

I wonder, did the factory sports suspension option have different control arms to account for the increased camber from the lowering springs? Or does the factory option simply have increased camber, and I shouldn't be concerned?

well sir if you must ask about chassis setup - you have no idea what you do and you can't use it properly

 

Kinematics of OEM suspension was not designed for lowering.

 

vRS has 20mm shorter springs for example

[john999boy]

Showing disrespect in thread responses is a sure fire way of upsetting people and getting Staff attention! Hopefully no more editing will need doing. ;-)

[TobyMTDI]

well sir if you must ask about chassis setup - you have no idea what you do and you can't use it properly

 

Kinematics of OEM suspension was not designed for lowering.

 

vRS has 20mm shorter springs for example

 

Skoda themselves fitted this kit in the form of sports suspension to the Octavia, and that's not just the VRS. You could buy a 1.9TDI with this setup from the factory.

 

Despite what you may think, I do have a reasonable grasp of kinematics and kinetics hence my question about the control arms. 

 

Even if I can't do something to bring the camber back to something slightly less tyre eating, I'd still rather keep the Bilstein sports shocks and Eiback pro kit as it makes the car feel much less boat-like and hence more enjoyable to drive.

[solwood]

Toby agreed on that.

I am not a 20 year-old. That kit rides better and handles better

Methinks someone has read lots of books. Sometimes theory and practice are rather different

[sniper29a]

every placebo must work, otherwise you would not pay such a lots of money :-D

 

it "feels" better sells thousands of Bilstein suspensions per year.

 

reality is most people never change bushings or keep OEM. As result of stiffer suspension, arms move in every direction, bend, deform and never stay in correct direction. Kinematics is compensated by stiff springs so that wheels don't travel too much.

 

One year later very same persons whine in forum why my tyres are gone, joints damaged in my car...but IT FEELS BETTER syndrome earned money to other tuner companies :-D

 

There is very little difference and it doesn't matter wheteher is 0 or 60mm lower...all about spring rates and shocks. I see very little difference, other than better controlled spring travel.

 

Since I drive alpine rally like damaged roads...I rather keep proper wheel geometry and kinematics...and use full wheel travel as designed by Skoda with some changes for improved handling

Edited 5 August, 2016 by sniper29a

[brad1.8T]

I got a 4 wheel alignment on a local garage that has a Hunter rig today after having changed tyres + swapped to eibach pro kit springs, but there were a couple of problems. Has anyone else had these problems and what can I do about them?

- Front toe only - the front right camber hasn't been adjusted, I wasn't given an explanation and only noticed after I'd got home

- Rear camber at max adjustment - they've adjusted both sides to be the same, but at -2deg02s I'm a bit worried about premature wear on the tyres

- Rear toe seized - the tyre place said I needed to get it cut off by a mechanic, but I don't know how bad it is (plus gas and patience might get it undone?). Presumably I'll have to pay for another alignment once I get that sorted, which is pain.

Thanks in advance for your help.

They might have the machine but they don't know what they are doing.

 

There is no individual adjustment for front camber but the subframe can be moved sideways to take camber from one side and add to the other (think of a trapezoid where you move the bottom from side to side).

 

Rear camber at max adjustment implies that the bushes have worn or your rear springs are badly sagged.  They should be able to get it to -1degrees.

 

Seized toe eccentric and they can't remove it?  It would be extra cost but they are telling you to go elsewhere to fix it which means they haven't the ability to do basic suspension repairs.

 

Personally, I'd be asking for a fairly large portion of my money back.

 

BTW: I have the Eibach Pro Kit on mine and still achieved the required adjustments - so it's not the springs

Edited 5 August, 2016 by brad1.8T

[xman]

They might have the machine but they don't know what they are doing.

Highly likely.

1st rule of alignment, car should be loaded with the normal load. I.e. you (and passengers/boot load if thats your normal driving) or equivalent weights should be sitting in the car while measurements are done. Never ever seen that done except at a dealer (surprisingly).

[TobyMTDI]

Thanks for the help, I suspect the rear bushes are worn as they don't look great from the outside (not that you can really tell). I've been considering getting some/all of the bushes replaced, but it'll need to wait until funds allow. Will I need to replace the entire arm or can the bushes themselves be replaced?

 

There is no individual adjustment for front camber but the subframe can be moved sideways to take camber from one side and add to the other (think of a trapezoid where you move the bottom from side to side).

It's interesting to know this - note that the garage was able to adjust the camber on the front left, but not the front right, any idea how they managed that?

 

I doubt if I'll be able to get any money back from the garage, but I certainly won't be using them again. I travelled a bit further as they had a hunter rig, and probably ended up with a worst job than the local places without the tech! 

[brad1.8T]

1st rule of alignment, car should be loaded with the normal load. I.e. you (and passengers/boot load if thats your normal driving) or equivalent weights should be sitting in the car while measurements are done. Never ever seen that done except at a dealer (surprisingly).

 

I never bothered unless it was a problem car or the owner was morbidly obese.

 

I did often ask if they had there normal bootload in the rear as a lot of people that use their car for business tend to remove all the gear from the boot when getting tyres (to allow access to the spare)

Thanks for the help, I suspect the rear bushes are worn as they don't look great from the outside (not that you can really tell). I've been considering getting some/all of the bushes replaced, but it'll need to wait until funds allow. Will I need to replace the entire arm or can the bushes themselves be replaced?

 

It's interesting to know this - note that the garage was able to adjust the camber on the front left, but not the front right, any idea how they managed that?

 

I doubt if I'll be able to get any money back from the garage, but I certainly won't be using them again. I travelled a bit further as they had a hunter rig, and probably ended up with a worst job than the local places without the tech! 

I have no idea how they achieved that.

 

The best alignment guy I ever knew used a Simplex mechanical aligner.  He's in his 70s now and still uses it on the older cars.  Years of experience will always do a better job than some gumby that's been told to simply get all the readings in the green zone.

[Tilt]

Please, try and keep the discussion polite. I disagree that people who tune their cars are idiots.

Yes, the eibach pro kit lowers the car. That's rather the point of lowering springs. However, as they are the same part as the (once) dealer available sports suspension it's hardly radical tuning. Plenty of people have fitted this kit without problems, so I wondered if there was something I could do to solve the problem.

I bought the kit for the increased spring rate and the the fact it improves the aesthetics of my car. I like how they look and how they perform, at no point did I fall for any marketing. I did plenty of research and chose what was best for me.

I wonder, did the factory sports suspension option have different control arms to account for the increased camber from the lowering springs? Or does the factory option simply have increased camber, and I shouldn't be concerned?

Toby, Ignore Sniper by name, sniper by nature.

 

I've come across this one in one of my posts and only seen negative comments from them, and nothing helpful.

 

I will not reply to any of their comments anymore.

[sniper29a]

If you don't feel pain, you cannot gain anything. You sure love pain in Briskoda

 

If you talk/write, you cannot hear/read and you cannot learn anything. You sure love talking around here.

 

Whatever happen is always your fault and those you hate most are those who telling you truth and you refuse to learn/improve.

 

Every stupid question is followed by stupid answer. EVERYTHING IS SIMPLE, unless you love complications as seems to be common wisdom around.

 

In this case a guy asks about wheel alignment because he has screwed whole geometry/kinematics by tuning suspension. He didn't swap worn OEM bushing most likely and now whine about bad geometry. Even if they get it right at local garage, a half year later he will be crying here about worn tires and something wrong with geometry. Well, no brain no pain. PERIOD

 

 

I've spent lots of time and money during last 30 years and I provided this know how for free. Yet after every my comment comes two pages of pish about how bad, arrogant, know all, see all, intimidating, not polite I'm .. .last year there was also whiners who reported their stupidity to admins.

 

Next time, try to read what I write, try it and then spent rest of happy days drinking beer with your friends as I do. OR whine in this forum and listen to eExperts. It is always your fault - don't hate me if you a'int me. I'm just a mirror, messenger ;-)

[brad1.8T]

Sniper29a:  Is rudeness and arrogance something that comes naturally or did you have practice a lot?