F1 I don't fully understand, but what I think I do get is that they extract some electrical power from the exhaust gas (as well as the direct KE used to run the turbo-compressor), and some electrical power from regenerative braking. Extracting exhaust energy to propel a vehicle is well-known technology (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scania_K-series and cross-references), as is using regenerative braking.

 

F1 uses 2 systems the MGU-H and the MGU-K.

 

MGU-H (Heat) is a generator / motor that is attached to the shaft of the turbo, it regenerates power when the turbo is spinning by acting as a brake to stop the turbo spinning faster than its efficiency zone (i.e. it does the same job as a wastegate bleed off, however the system also uses a wastegate as a redundancy). This generator can be switched over to directly drive the turbo like an e-charger to ensure it is spinning at the correct speed and provide positive boost pressure when there is insufficient gas flow to drive it, this is to ensure there is no turbo lag even if the revs drop too low. 

 

MGU-K (Kinetic) is the regenerative braking system, also known as KERS. the power that is generated by the system can be fed back into the transmission to boost power output to the wheels.

Edited 18 October, 20169 yr by RampantBadger

Err, the power consumption is Amps * Volts, regardless of whether the Volts are 6 or 6 thousand! In other words, the power needed to supply a given volume of air at a given pressure is a constant (near enough) regardless of the motor voltage and amperage.

 

F1 I don't fully understand, but what I think I do get is that they extract some electrical power from the exhaust gas (as well as the direct KE used to run the turbo-compressor), and some electrical power from regenerative braking. Extracting exhaust energy to propel a vehicle is well-known technology (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scania_K-series and cross-references), as is using regenerative braking.

 

Do you really want to start a discussion on electrics with a Chartered Electrical Engineer?

 

Have a read of Ohms Law.

 

I said the move to 48V was to lower the current. Going from 12V to 48V will mean the current on the electrical compressor will be a quarter of what it would have been on a 12V vehicle. This allows the current carrying cables and the compressor windings to be a quarter of the cross sectional area of those required for a 12V unit.

 

Today I'll be working on 400000V systems, have a think why the voltage is that high.

 

If you don't fully understand how the MGU-H works then you shouldn't really dismiss electric compressors.

 

Lee

Edited 18 October, 20169 yr by logiclee

F1 uses 2 systems the MGU-H and the MGU-K.

 

MGU-H (Heat) is a generator / motor that is attached to the shaft of the turbo, it regenerates power when the turbo is spinning by acting as a brake to stop the turbo spinning faster than its efficiency zone (i.e. it does the same job as a wastegate bleed off, however the system also uses a wastegate as a redundancy). This generator can be switched over to directly drive the turbo like an e-charger to ensure it is spinning at the correct speed and provide positive boost pressure when there is insufficient gas flow to drive it, this is to ensure there is no turbo lag even if the revs drop too low. 

 

MGU-K (Kinetic) is the regenerative braking system, also known as KERS. the power that is generated by the system can be fed back into the transmission to boost power output to the wheels.

Cheers - How they both work now makes sense to me (Something that Autosprout and Tv have failed to explain clearly).

Do you really want to start a discussion on electrics with a Chartered Electrical Engineer?

 

Have a read of Ohms Law.

 

I said the move to 48V was to lower the current. Going from 12V to 48V will mean the current on the electrical compressor will be a quarter of what it would have been on a 12V vehicle. This allows the current carrying cables to be smaller.

 

Today I'll be working on 400000V systems, have a think why the voltage is that high.

 

If you don't fully understand how the MGU-H works then you shouldn't really dismiss electric compressors.

 

Lee

Perhaps you should have a read of the laws relating to gas compression? They're about as hard as Ohm's law. I did not mention cable sections, but the need, repeat need, to supply a given amount of power to supply a given mass of gas at a given pressure (assuming a constant intake pressure).

Perhaps you should have a read of the laws relating to gas compression? They're about as hard as Ohm's law. I did not mention cable sections, but the need, repeat need, to supply a given amount of power to supply a given mass of gas at a given pressure (assuming a constant intake pressure).

 

But you quoted my posted. I didn't mention power requirements. I stated that VAG already have an engine on sale with an electric compressor and they have moved to a 48V system to lower the "Current".

 

The fact is they are already a reality to infill at low revs. and as vehicles move to 48V we will see more use of these units as well as electric aircon, electric brake assistance and electric vacuum systems.

 

Then we also need to consider Hybrids, these power electric motors to propel the car down the road. And that is where the MGU-H technology comes in as with a hybrid the electric compressor for boost does not have to be supplied by the cars aux 12V battery it can be supplied by the cars Hybrid Batteries and even use waste thermal energy to charge the hybrid battery.

 

This is not just some fanciful thinking. These system are already in development and testing.

 

Lee

But you quoted my posted. I didn't mention power requirements. I stated that VAG already have an engine on sale with an electric compressor and they have moved to a 48V system to lower the "Current".

 

The fact is they are already a reality to infill at low revs. and as vehicles move to 48V we will see more use of these units as well as electric aircon, electric brake assistance and electric vacuum systems.

 

Then we also need to consider Hybrids, these power electric motors to propel the car down the road. And that is where the MGU-H technology comes in as with a hybrid the electric compressor for boost does not have to be supplied by the cars aux 12V battery it can be supplied by the cars Hybrid Batteries and even use waste thermal energy to charge the hybrid battery.

 

This is not just some fanciful thinking. These system are already in development and testing.

 

Lee

So you're right because you want to ignore what the electrical system is driving. Is that what you're saying?

The energy cost of running the electric charger is more than compensated for by being able to use more fuel at the higher charge pressure. The net power gain comes from energy stored in hydrocarbons in the fuel tank. Does that help?

Edited 18 October, 20169 yr by Wino

Small world in the Car Manufacturing World.

 

It is maybe worth a thought about Volvo, VW, GM. Suzuki, Toyota, Mitsubishi etc and their technologies, and the likes of Bosch software / hardware in many vehicles.

In 2010 the CEO of VW USA. Stefan Jacoby.

http://sg.linkedin.com/in/stefanjacoby

(The one that was there in charge 2007-2010 during the Defeat Device years.) Related into the Dynasty that is Porsche / VW, & who huffed off to Volvo that VW had been looking at buying from Ford.

Also the night that the Defeat device was being revealed Suzuki bought back their last Shareholding from VW, maybe with money Toyota lent.

 

VW bought into Suzuki to get access to the Research and development of Small Capacity Turbo Charged Engines and the new Electric Turbo / Supercharger / Hybrid Technology that they were involved with in partnership with GM. Suzuki claimed i believe that VW wanted knowledge but it was all one way, and they were not sharing.

Volvo were obviously involved with Ford Developments.

So the CEO VW North America went to head Volvo in 2010, then 'left' through ill health and went to head GM Global.

 

VW were into Twincharging 2007 ish and messed that up big style before getting into Electric Vehicles which they have messed up so far, 

now they are doing Electric Superchargers.

 

Edited 18 October, 20169 yr by Offski

Is the answer in the power to weight ratio (Of the engine itself):-

 

Rolls-Royce Trent                            5:1

 

150-200  BHP blown reciprocating VAG engine    1.5 - 2:1 (if you are lucky)

 

What happened to lightweight ceramic engines that they were rabbiting on about 10 - 15 years ago ? 

 

Weight of engine casings, parts and the bodyshell needs to be ditched big time as if it were aerospace.

 

 

Nick

Edited 18 October, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

So you're right because you want to ignore what the electrical system is driving. Is that what you're saying?

 

No I'm right because you can already go out an order a car with an electrical compressor, something you said was snake oil.

 

How is this now possible? The move to 48V has reduced the current consumption required by the electric compressor by a quarter. This allows for much smaller (Physical size) motors as the winding coils are smaller. Going 48V will give you 4 times the power "Watts" for the same current output of the Alternator or MG unit when regen braking.  

 

A number of manufacturers have Hybrid prototypes that have either the full MGU-H similar to F1 or are running an electrical compressor that is able to boost the small petrol engine using the Hybrid battery pack not the cars 12V system.

 

Unfortunately all this is medium term technology because when motor and battery tech reach a suitable tipping point we wont need the IC engine at all.

 

Lee

So you're right because you want to ignore what the electrical system is driving. Is that what you're saying?

 

You've misunderstood what logiclee posted.

 

The VAG engine logiclee mentions uses a combination of a traditional turbocharger and an electric powered supercharger.  The latter is very different to the 'electric supercharger kits' you can find on eBay which are complete rubbish or as you said, snake oil

 

The electric supercharger is not a replacement for a conventional turbocharger, it's only to assist it. Mostly to help with turbo lag and engine efficiency.

 

This is a spec sheet for a 48v 10kW electric supercharger which is probably similar to what VAG are likely to use: http://aeristech.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/datasheet__48v_10kw_electric_supercharger_v2.pdf

Is the answer in the power to weight ratio (Of the engine itself):-

 

Rolls-Royce Trent                            5:1

 

150-200  BHP blown reciprocating VAG engine    1.5 - 2:1 (if you are lucky)

That is because the internal combustion engine (as much as we all love it) is staggeringly inefficient, you are looking at a maximum of around 30% of the energy released from the combustion of the fuel being converted into rotational energy.

Gas Turbines can hit 60% efficiency (when using combined cycle heat recovery systems, they are similar to an ice if only measuring shaft power) and they have far fewer moving parts, they don't need to contain an explosion either so they can be made lighter. Looking purely at power to weight ratio then a gas turbine is a clear winner but the physical size of them and the limited operating range means they are quite impractical for use in a car (at the moment).

Edited 18 October, 20169 yr by RampantBadger

That is because the internal combustion engine (as much as we all love it) is staggeringly inefficient, you are looking at a maximum of around 30% of the energy released from the combustion of the fuel being converted into rotational energy.

Gas Turbines can hit 60% efficiency (when using combined cycle heat recovery systems, they are similar to an ice if only measuring shaft power) and they have far fewer moving parts, they don't need to contain an explosion either so they can be made lighter. Looking purely at power to weight ratio then a gas turbine is a clear winner but the physical size of them and the limited operating range means they are quite impractical for use in a car (at the moment).

Which is bigger and heavier; a Lycoming T53-L-11 or a Rolls-Royce Merlin III?

Which is bigger and heavier; a Lycoming T53-L-11 or a Rolls-Royce Merlin III?

The Merlin is much smaller but over twice the weight for a similar power output (Google to the rescue  )

 

I know which one I would rather listen to though...

 

One of my fathers friends restored this beauty, most of the work was carried out in a small mill building the village I grew up in.

 

http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/flying-legends/plane/max-alpha-aviation--meier-motors/supermarine-spitfire-lf-mk-viiic-g-bkmi.php

 

I was lucky enough to spend a week with him as work experience when I was at school, they really are a work of art.

Edited 18 October, 20169 yr by RampantBadger

they are quite impractical for use in a car (at the moment).

 

But not bikes.......well maybe

 

 

Bad quality.

But not bikes.......well maybe

 

 

Bad quality.

I love the Y2K, its gloriously bonkers!

The Merlin is much smaller but over twice the weight for a similar power output (Google to the rescue  )

 

I know which one I would rather listen to though...

 

One of my fathers friends restored this beauty, most of the work was carried out in a small mill building the village I grew up in.

 

http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/flying-legends/plane/max-alpha-aviation--meier-motors/supermarine-spitfire-lf-mk-viiic-g-bkmi.php

 

I was lucky enough to spend a week with him as work experience when I was at school, they really are a work of art.

Are you sure? I was asking about the engine, so you don't have to count the primary gearbox or the exhaust duct of the Lycoming.

Glad I bought the 2.7 ltr flat six over the 2.0ltr flat 4 then. Obviously thinking ahead . LOL

Edited 18 October, 20169 yr by vrskeith

Are you sure? I was asking about the engine, so you don't have to count the primary gearbox or the exhaust duct of the Lycoming.

to be honest I googled the Lycoming as I was really not sure of the size of it. It appears it is as you say without the gearbox and exhaust shroud it is a fair bit smaller and lighter that the Merlin