Warranty work and head gasket failure.

[DBP]

Hi all, 

 

Last year I bought an octy from Skoda (now Subaru) Salisbury. It had loads of warranty issues with it and ended up going to Skoda head office to get dealt with. It turned out to be the timing chain and oil seal replacement. 

 

Car had been running fine! Until recently. It has been drinking oil, drinking fuel and pumping out white plums of smoke from the exhaust. Water seems fine and heating seems fine, but all signs point to a head gasket failure? 

 

I have called Skoda and said what is going on and I have a 2 year workmanship warranty on the previous work. Providing the previous work is linked to the latest issue, it will all be covered. What I wanted to ask the community is, would you define warranty work on an oil seal/timing chain, connected to a head gasket failure? 

 

I have asked Skoda to send me the full breakdown on what was fixed and changed, once I have it I will share. 

[TheClient]

What year is your Octavia vRS, is it a mk1 per your signature? This sub forums is for Mk2s?

 

Talking about timing chains, it sounds like you are talking about a mk2 facelift CCZA engine i.e. EA888 type?  

 

Your answer will determine the engine and configuration and also what sub forum will more likely find more knowledgable answers / responses.

 

I think you've done the right thing first asking for the itemisation (assuming you do not have on file) before moving onto diagnostics. Could well be head gasket, normally a main timing chain wouldn't involve head removal or head gasket replacement but your itemisation and your response on you vehicle model and therefore engine configuration may provide for a more thorough answer.

[DBP]

[DBP]

1 minute ago, TheClient said:

What year is your Octavia vRS, is it a mk1 per your signature? This sub forums is for Mk2s?

 

Talking about timing chains, it sounds like you are talking about a mk2 facelift CCZA engine i.e. EA888 type?  

 

Your answer will determine the engine and configuration and also what sub forum will more likely find more knowledgable answers / responses.

 

I think you've done the right thing first asking for the itemisation (assuming you do not have on file) before moving onto diagnostics. Could well be head gasket, normally a main timing chain wouldn't involve head removal or head gasket replacement but your itemisation and your response on you vehicle model and therefore engine configuration may provide for a more thorough answer.

Need to update the signature. I now have an 11 plate MK2 FL 2.0TFSI. Breakdown attached.

[TheClient]

6 minutes ago, DBP said:

Need to update the signature. I now have an 11 plate MK2 FL 2.0TFSI. Breakdown attached.

Ok, now makes more sense.

 

The only two mildly expensive gaskets on there are the first two listed.

 

The first one is the oring gasket for the magnetic camshaft adjuster;

The second one listed is a gasket for the intake manifold.

The repair kit is for 4 injector seal kits.

 

It sounds like it had the tensioner and injector seals done.

 

Although, the text references timing chain and camshaft bearing. I didn't spot the camshaft bearing on my quick read down the parts list.

 

Doesn't seem that closely related to a head gasket on my First Reflection (if that is your current problem).

 

You also have consumer rights against the selling dealer for fault rectification separate to the warranty on the previously repaired items.

 

 

[DBP]

Fair comment, but if there was an oil leak inside the engine (which they diagnosed it to be at the time) couldn't a lack in oil cause the head to distort, which in turn would cause a head gasket failure? That is based on the idea that this is a head failure, it could be something else. 

[TheClient]

24 minutes ago, DBP said:

Fair comment, but if there was an oil leak inside the engine (which they diagnosed it to be at the time) couldn't a lack in oil cause the head to distort, which in turn would cause a head gasket failure? That is based on the idea that this is a head failure, it could be something else. 

Normally head gasket failures are heat / lack of coolant or just age related.

 

I'm not sure what the oil leak is inside the engine, the injector seals were replaced but I doubt that is related based on current information.

 

If the white smoke is water - you would be loosing coolant. 

 

To me it sounds more likely the turbo has let go or another possibility, is that more than one fault is at play.

 

Edit: Have you smelt the white smoke, burnt oil in that concentration is pretty pungent, coolant / water less so.

 

Edit 2: Oil passing directly though the hot side of turbo and into exhaust and downpipe will burn white BTW. 

Edited 21 April, 2017 by TheClient

[DBP]

It doesn't smell from what my nose can pick up. The smoke is pure white. No hints of blue. 

[TheClient]

For me, there is very little that suggests a head gasket at this stage. A compression problem on one of the cylinders, water in oil or oil in water, loss of coolant, heater matrix not heating up, bubbling in coolant, any of those may point in the direction of possible head gasket, but at moment it sounds like turbo to me.

 

It is possible, but seems like some further diagnosis required.  Where is the water being replenished from if that is the white smoke?

 

How much oil is it using and did it start to use oil from nowhere?

 

See what others on here think.

 

In any case, unless you are wanting to pay for repairs yourself, you are going to have to have it diagnosed at a garage you trust and who you would be willing to do the work. Then, my suggestion would be to approach the dealer who sold you the car, assuming they are still trading. I know you say they changed franchise from Skoda to Subaru but it may be under the same company, who has continued to trade.

 

A failure of a head gasket or a turbo unit within 12 months probably wouldn't be acceptable under consumer rights act unless you paid a drop down discount price and accepted faults as is. 

Edited 21 April, 2017 by TheClient

[Ju1ian1001]

9 hours ago, DBP said:

Fair comment, but if there was an oil leak inside the engine (which they diagnosed it to be at the time) couldn't a lack in oil cause the head to distort, which in turn would cause a head gasket failure? That is based on the idea that this is a head failure, it could be something else. 

Nope, For the cylinder head to warp an engine would need to overheat which would be a cooling problem not and oil supply/leak problem. The TSi engine in both 1.8 and 2.0 guise do have problems with the oil scrapper rings (bad design) and can give the same symptoms as headgasket faliure. Also if it's not using any coolant then unlikely to be headgasket.

 

On a side note the rover K series would give the same symptoms for head gasket failure when the inlet manifold gasket popped (plastic then a rubber seal  onto an aluminum head is not a good mix) but i don't know if the TSi has the idea.

[TheClient]

The EA888 has a plastic manifold and a rubber gasket seal onto an alloy head.  It is not a great design, interestingly shared with a rover K series (no experience of them)!  The more common failure you usually see in EA888s related to the inlet manifold is usually the inlet tract actuator operation.  There is an actuator and flap movement to change the tract inside the manifold at higher rpms 3k rpm I think.

 

The OP's previous work itemisation indicates the manifold and manifold gasket seal was replaced to change out injector seals, so it is possible there is a failure of that repair as part of the issues documented here.

 

It could be a part of multiple faults. I don't think that would cause the white smoke and the significant oil usage though.

 

The piston ring issue is documented in many places on here and outside the forum so have a search. It is quite widespread but I would have expected it to have ramped up over a period.

 

More questions: what is the mileage, what is the service history, Fixed or Variable, what oil is used? As well as the outstanding: Did this start all of a sudden?

 

If the oil usage is from what I think it is, it will be quick to diagnose.

[Ju1ian1001]

If the Inlet manifold gasket has failed this can give tell tail white smoke is the coolant can leak into the inlet ports of the the head and therefore be burnt in the combustion process. Intresting to know EA888 have an actuator and flap in the inlet tract, again something shared with good old rover on the KV6 (2.5 litre V6) engine, they called it V.I.S (veriable inlet stack) was fitted to improve Torque at low RPM's and give better Power in the high RPM's.

 

Sorry i beat on about the good old K series, i'm a life long rover/mg fan, but need the Chech/german level of comfort and reliability now, I'm afraid us brits can't compete on that anymore  

Edited 22 April, 2017 by Ju1ian1001

[TheClient]

1 hour ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

If the Inlet manifold gasket has failed this can give tell tail white smoke is the coolant can leak into the inlet ports of the the head and therefore be burnt in the combustion process. Intresting to know EA888 have an actuator and flap in the inlet tract, again something shared with good old rover on the KV6 (2.5 litre V6) engine, they called it V.I.S (veriable inlet stack) was fitted to improve Torque at low RPM's and give better Power in the high RPM's.

 

Sorry i beat on about the good old K series, i'm a life long rover/mg fan, but need the Chech/german level of comfort and reliability now, I'm afraid us brits can't compete on that anymore  

Yes, but AFAIK the VAG EA888 doesn't have any coolant lines to the inlet manifold, not that I remember anyway. And, that would show as coolant level dropping. Anyway, we are hypothising way too far now without hearing back from the OP. Need some more information or action from them to progress.

Edited 22 April, 2017 by TheClient

[Ju1ian1001]

2 hours ago, TheClient said:

Yes, but AFAIK the VAG EA888 doesn't have any coolant lines to the inlet manifold, not that I remember anyway. And, that would show as coolant level dropping. Anyway, we are hypothising way too far now without hearing back from the OP. Need some more information or action from them to progress.

Ah didn't know that, not to familiar with the Vag EA888, and i have one in my car :oops: anyway quite interested to see the diagnosis and outcome, just incase

[DBP]

I will need to check service history when I get home along with the oil. Believe it was 10-30 fully synthetic (whatever the skoda manual said was right for the service intervals). I reckon it needs a top up every month and half/2 months. Having a vRS before I would say it wanted oil every 3 months or so, so this didn't seem too much of an issue. It was more the drinking fuel. It was getting 4 weeks to £60, now it has halved that! 

Currently on 97k. Only driven 5k since owning. it has had a few hissy fits about turning over, almost like it didn't have enough charge, but it would turn over in the morning but not the afternoon, so the logic is lost on that one. 

Took it for a drive yesterday and didn't notice the smoke, but it was quite warm. May take it out tonight and see if I can spot in the coldness of the air. 

When it went in first time to skoda for the work, it sounded like a miss-fire was happening (I originally thought coil packs) and the day it went back it had a metal rattle. 

[TheClient]

1 hour ago, DBP said:

I will need to check service history when I get home along with the oil. Believe it was 10-30 fully synthetic (whatever the skoda manual said was right for the service intervals). I reckon it needs a top up every month and half/2 months. Having a vRS before I would say it wanted oil every 3 months or so, so this didn't seem too much of an issue. It was more the drinking fuel. It was getting 4 weeks to £60, now it has halved that! 

Currently on 97k. Only driven 5k since owning. it has had a few hissy fits about turning over, almost like it didn't have enough charge, but it would turn over in the morning but not the afternoon, so the logic is lost on that one. 

Took it for a drive yesterday and didn't notice the smoke, but it was quite warm. May take it out tonight and see if I can spot in the coldness of the air. 

When it went in first time to skoda for the work, it sounded like a miss-fire was happening (I originally thought coil packs) and the day it went back it had a metal rattle. 

It needs to be VW 502 for fixed service intervals or VW 504 approved for variable. 504 can also be used as either fixed or variable interval but not the other way around. I hope your car has stayed on fixed 10k mile intervals or less. It will give you better chances of longevity. 502s are often 5W40 and will usually offer some improvement in consumption for the ring problem.

 

The oil usage and fuel consumption will be more comparable and more readily interpreted if you state it in miles.  However, on the face of what you are saying it doesn't sound good.  And it has always been like that since you've had it?

 

I have the same engine but in DSG, so it will use marginal amounts more fuel.  I get 400 miles on a good long trip, as low as 300 when much shorter trips between fill ups.

 

I haven't filled up oil between a 7k+ mile annual service change.

 

Some things are clearly up with yours.

 

I wouldn't be driving it around too much without investigating things a bit further. You could risk damage. It shouldn't take a garage too long with the symptoms as they are.

 

If you want to do things yourself, an easy place to start is to remove the spark plugs and inspect and see what they tell you.   I think you also need a diagnostic read (some members on here can help with VCDS) or use a trusted garage and ultimately likely, some more tests.

 

Edit: PS if removing spark plugs keep them in the same cylinders when refitting, so that it doesn't confuse any subsequent diagnosis.

Edited 24 April, 2017 by TheClient