I wonder if that's 'tweakable' with VCDS?

 

It becomes a possibility where we have a known vehicle, with Auto-Hold, where the brake lights aren't illuminated with its use.

l4wrence, Is the 'Comedy club' on tonight?  

Edited 9 May, 20179 yr by Awayoffski

6 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

l4wrence, Is the 'Comedy club' on tonight?  

 

I'm blaming the vodka and beer. Is it only Tuesday? Oh dear god :(

I decided to investigate further and watch the rev counter.

I have the 7 speed dry dsg and if I stop and keep my foot on the brake the revs drop to 800, which is tick over. The same happens with the auto hold.

Releasing the brake the revs go up to 1000, thus enabling creep.

So I would say that the clutches are not dragging all the time the brakes are applied.

Never liked drag clutches, prefer them in proper clothes.

2 hours ago, Wardy said:

I wonder if that's 'tweakable' with VCDS?

 

It becomes a possibility where we have a known vehicle, with Auto-Hold, where the brake lights aren't illuminated with its use.

 

My last two Passats - B6 and B7 - didn't have the brake lights on with auto-hold. The latest B8 Passat is the same as the Superb 3 and, presumably, other current VAG cars. 

Edited 9 May, 20179 yr by daveo138

My Alhambra was built October 2016 so a current VW Group car and the brake lights do not illuminate with 'Auto Hold'. 

If they did i would not use Auto Hold because the rear lights are terrible to road users sitting behind, i know i have followed my car and others.

(Bottom fog light on as well as brakes.)

Edited 9 May, 20179 yr by Awayoffski

AFAIK the coast mode only operates if the drive mode is ECO, it doesn't work in normal or sport modes. Shame it doesn't work in normal mode as the throttle seems a bit more responsive than in the eco mode. 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/386035-dsg-coasting-in-eco-mode 

Edited 9 May, 20179 yr by Awayoffski

3 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/38035-dsg-coasting-in-eco-mode 

That doesn't seem to link to the right topic 

The one in my edited post does.

3 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

My Alhambra was built October 2016 so a current VW Group car and the brake lights do not illuminate with 'Auto Hold'. 

 

 

 

Nice to to see some consistency. 

I’ve been using Auto-Hold for my past two or three commutes and these are my observations…

 

I can confirm (as others have said) that the Brake Lights on the Mk3 Superb do come on when using Auto-Hold.

 

Auto-Hold does not work in ‘N’.

 

There is a slight change in engine note when slipping the car from ‘D’ to ‘N’ when holding the car either with the foot firmly on the brake pedal or using Auto-Hold. This suggests to me that there is ‘some’ drag but, due to it being a wet-clutch (6 speed), it may not be important for short periods (stopped at lights for example)?

 

HHC holds the vehicle for about 2 seconds after releasing the brake. HHC is redundant if using Auto-Hold.

 

I’m pretty sure (but not 100%) that when holding the car simply on the EPB in ‘D’, the DSG clutches are slipping and therefore this could lead to premature wear.

 

I like the Auto-Hold feature and will most likely keep using it however, if stopped for any length of time I still find myself putting my foot on the brake, slipping the box into ‘N’ and applying the EPB… I guess it’s some sort of built in ‘mechanical sympathy’. Clearly many people have done thousands of miles in their cars using Auto-Hold without any issue….

 

I should also add that rightly or wrongly I don’t use stop/start, I’ve tried but simply don’t feel comfortable with it.

 

Thanks for all the replies.   

MY16 B8 206TSI Passat definitely has brake lights on when auto hold is in use. I use it all the time. I have changed settings in VDCS so auto hold is on the lightest setting to release though. Much better than the standard setting.

If waiting for along time I just press the start/stop button to stop car then again to take off. Then no chance of clutch wear that way and its a lot faster than having to put foot on brake and move gear lever to N, apply EPB and then repeat process again to drive off.

The issue with stop / start as a means of being sure you are not sitting in traffic for longer periods without brake lights shining towards other road users behind you is that often in adverse weather that is when Stop / Start might not be operating.

Cold conditions, wet etc, Heating difference ambient and interior more than 9*oC, A/C on, heated rear screen, mirrors etc and high power usage and no stop/ start.

 

The UK Highway Code as mentioned in various threads seems to have many drivers aware of how to stop for longer stops and not use the foot brake or now 

'auto hold' where the brake lights are on.

EU Type Approval and Use & Construction seems to often miss what the UK Highway Code advises.

Just as it does where 'Front Fog Lights' are used as Cornering Lights, or come on automatically when reverse is selected regardless as if they are appropriate.

Am I missing something with the references to clutch wear and auto hold? I understand/understood that "hold" functions are performed by the braking system ( hydraulics and switching after a delay to the electromechanical handbrake on the rear wheels) and dual clutch gearboxes always have one clutch held open when the car is in motion so there is no abnormal wear taking place if the car sits with both clutches held open.  

Since starting this post I’ve done quite a bit of reading up on how the DSG gearbox and more specifically, the clutches used in these gearboxes, actually work.

 

The Superb manual simply says “The selector lever position N does not have to be selected if stopping for a

short time, such as at cross roads”. Which I guess also implies that it should be selected if stopping for a longer period of time, but how long is a longer period of time?

 

This is a basic summary of my current understanding based on the articles I’ve been able to find.

 

In ‘P’ and ‘N’ both clutch packs are fully disengaged. When you move the selector to ‘D’ the first clutch moves to the bite position ready for you to release the brake and let the car move forward. Using Auto-Hold is just like having your foot on the brake so, if the car is in ‘D’ there will be some drag/friction on the ‘first’ clutch until you release the brake and press the accelerator, at which point the clutch fully engages.

 

In a wet-clutch 6 speed gearbox wear is reduced because there is a film of oil on the clutch surface. In the case of the 7 speed dry-clutch gearbox, I suspect that there will be a greater chance of wear if stationary in ‘D’ for too long?

 

All that said, I have also read suggestions that the electronics controlling the gearbox recognise that you have your foot firmly on the brake and therefore, fully disengages both clutch packs. Unfortunately, I’ve not been able to find any ‘technical’ articles to support this and I would be interested to know if anyone has any more information. If this is true then happy days…

Longer periods of times might be like Traffic Works with light or board controls or convoys. 

Maybe hold ups for traffic jams or accidents. 

Times longer than just traffic lights or waiting at a junction.

 

PS

Drag on clutch is a rather misleading term, or maybe just lost in translation.

 

Edited 11 May, 20179 yr by Awayoffski

1 hour ago, Whaty said:

Since starting this post I’ve done quite a bit of reading up on how the DSG gearbox and more specifically, the clutches used in these gearboxes, actually work.

 

The Superb manual simply says “The selector lever position N does not have to be selected if stopping for a

short time, such as at cross roads”. Which I guess also implies that it should be selected if stopping for a longer period of time, but how long is a longer period of time?

 

This is a basic summary of my current understanding based on the articles I’ve been able to find.

 

In ‘P’ and ‘N’ both clutch packs are fully disengaged. When you move the selector to ‘D’ the first clutch moves to the bite position ready for you to release the brake and let the car move forward. Using Auto-Hold is just like having your foot on the brake so, if the car is in ‘D’ there will be some drag/friction on the ‘first’ clutch until you release the brake and press the accelerator, at which point the clutch fully engages.

 

In a wet-clutch 6 speed gearbox wear is reduced because there is a film of oil on the clutch surface. In the case of the 7 speed dry-clutch gearbox, I suspect that there will be a greater chance of wear if stationary in ‘D’ for too long?

 

All that said, I have also read suggestions that the electronics controlling the gearbox recognise that you have your foot firmly on the brake and therefore, fully disengages both clutch packs. Unfortunately, I’ve not been able to find any ‘technical’ articles to support this and I would be interested to know if anyone has any more information. If this is true then happy days…

Evidence from the rev counter suggests that the clutches are fully disengaged when the brake or parking brake is applied.

It sits at 800rpm, which is exactly the same as when the lever is in park or  neutral. Releasing the brake makes the revs climb to 1000rpm, which will enable creep.

I really can't believe that with all the electronics involved with this gearbox that they would not have taken the logical step of disengaging the clutches under these conditions.

Edited 11 May, 20179 yr by facet edge

1 hour ago, Whaty said:

The Superb manual simply says “The selector lever position N does not have to be selected if stopping for a

short time, such as at cross roads”. Which I guess also implies that it should be selected if stopping for a longer period of time, but how long is a longer period of time?

 

 

I would define this as 'when a pause becomes a wait'. In best practice/Advanced Driving terms, you would assess this at every stop. As it will vary at each and every hazard.

 

So if I was coming up to set of traffic lights that I could see have been on red for some time, it could indicate that you won't be waiting as long. So I might not come out of 'D'. However, if I was travelling along and had just missed a signal, and was perhaps the first to arrive at the stop line, I would usually conclude that I would be waiting longer, so I'd shift out of 'D'.

Wardy, I agree completely, access each situation (stop) and make a decision. You'll see from my post yesterday that since using the Auto-Hold feature I've only been selecting 'N' if I think I'm going to be stopped for more than a minute or so.

 

facet edge, there is a video on YouTube (not a Skoda) that suggests the engineers have considered this and the clutches do disengage when your foot is 'firmly' on the brake. Whilst the revs are the same I have noticed a slight change in engine note when moving from 'D' to 'N' but of course, this could be caused by other things and not simply the clutch/gearbox.

 

Awayoffski, thanks for the links, I've not seen them before. If you watch the first and let it run to the end it gives the option to view a number of 'related' videos, one of which is '5 things you shouldn't do in a DSG'. This is the video I've mentioned in my reply to facet edge.

 

Bottom line and quote myself from yesterday...

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 11:43, Whaty said:

 

I like the Auto-Hold feature and will most likely keep using it however, if stopped for any length of time I still find myself putting my foot on the brake, slipping the box into ‘N’ and applying the EPB… I guess it’s some sort of built in ‘mechanical sympathy’. Clearly many people have done thousands of miles in their cars using Auto-Hold without any issue….

 

 

I have driven only Autos, Automated Manuals, Servo Clutches or CVT's for 4 decades and DSG's for the past decade so i make sure i know how they operate before even getting onto the public highway. 

Awayoffski, I guess that makes you fairly qualified on this subject.!! Ha, ha   Thanks again for your replies.

 

Why the links, are these your hobbies?

21 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

The issue with stop / start as a means of being sure you are not sitting in traffic for longer periods without brake lights shining towards other road users behind you is that often in adverse weather that is when Stop / Start might not be operating.

Cold conditions, wet etc, Heating difference ambient and interior more than 9*oC, A/C on, heated rear screen, mirrors etc and high power usage and no stop/ start.

 

 

Except when start/stop is functioning so is everything else when the engine stops including the brake lights if you stopped using auto hold.

My stop/start works with all those you said happening too. It only starts up again after a a while due to battery requirements or if its very hot outside and the air con needs to start. Rear screen, the LED headlamps etc won't stop it from working. Mine pretty much goes from about 500m after the car starts too which suggests even cold engine temp isn't a big deal.

I just think its way easier to push a button, than having to push the brake pedal in and shift gears around etc if you are worried about clutch wear. There cant be any if the engine isn't going and it must disengage clutch if car is stopped anyway as it won't be engaged when it restarts. 

As said above, if you don't push brake pedal all the way in, both auto hold and stop/start don't work anyway so can balance like that if traffic is moving slowly.

Edited 12 May, 20179 yr by snala

Nice,

That is what happens with location, location, location and environmental conditions, some features function as engineers and designers wanted them to.

The Stop / Start was introduced to reduce emissions in stop / start traffic and only helps in that if it is functioning and being used obviously. The VED was /is even lower because the vehicle has it fitted.

(Like Hybrid's which might run on electric in gridlock urban traffic yet might only ever get used with the internal combustion engine running.)

 

I checked a couple of Superb 3's yesterday 66 plates and the Brake Lights were not on when the Auto Hold was functioning.

Maybe members here can check their car again. 

Obviously not open the door as the hand brake will go on rather than the auto hold.

Just have someone check the brake lights for them.

Edited 12 May, 20179 yr by Awayoffski