DSG – Auto Hold or Neutral?

[Whaty]

I was led to believe that leaving the car in drive whilst stopped for any length of time (at traffic lights if they’ve just turned red for example) could cause premature wear of the clutch, a little like riding the clutch in a manual. In view of this, I’ve got in to the habit of slipping the car into neutral if I think I’m going to be stationary for anything more than 20 – 30 seconds..

 

Auto-Hold doesn’t work if the car is in neutral and it can be a bit of a pain when manoeuvring, parking for example. I’ve read many threads on this site with people praising the Auto-Hold function (other than when manoeuvring when most seem to turn it off) but, if the concern around clutch wear is correct, I think I would rather do as I am and put the car in neutral?

 

I don’t like sitting with my foot on the brake, especially at night when the brake lights are quite bright, I think it’s discourteous to the people behind, so I would like to use the Auto-Hold function….. but I don’t want to damage the clutch.

 

I guess it comes down to a simple question, is it okay to leave the car in drive when stationary?

 

I would appreciate some advice from people with far more experience of this gearbox than me.

 

Thanks,

Terry 

[Coops]

I think the overall wear on the clutch will be negligible over it's life, and in the event of any issues you'd find it difficult to prove it was leaving it in "D" when stationary causes it.

 

I have AutoHold on all the time and initially had issues when manoeuvring but now it's second nature.

 

When at traffic lights for extended periods, to save blinding people with my brake lights I just flick the handbrake on.

 

 

[daveo138]

Many years ago, I had a Vauxhall Omega auto. I got into the habit of putting it n neutral when stationary, as I didn't like the idea of it trying to drive. 

 

Obviously, it was a different type of gearbox, but I was convinced that as it was trying to drive, something must be wearing. 

[IanJD]

In the wet-clutch DSG fitted to the 2.0 engine the plates don't physically touch each other, certainly not at idle -- they're separated by a thin film of oil, it's the drag of this that gives the creep when you take your foot off the brake. So there's no risk of clutch wear no matter how long you sit stationary. The same applies to a conventional auto box with a torque converter, but not to a dry-clutch DSG like the smaller engines use -- in these it is like riding the clutch on a manual gearbox, there is wear on the clutch plates.

[kenfowler3966]

55 minutes ago, IanJD said:

In the wet-clutch DSG fitted to the 2.0 engine the plates don't physically touch each other, certainly not at idle -- they're separated by a thin film of oil, it's the drag of this that gives the creep when you take your foot off the brake. So there's no risk of clutch wear no matter how long you sit stationary. The same applies to a conventional auto box with a torque converter, but not to a dry-clutch DSG like the smaller engines use -- in these it is like riding the clutch on a manual gearbox, there is wear on the clutch plates.

Thats not really correct, if your foot is on the brake the clutch plates are seperated. If you sit with the handbrake on and foot off the brake with engine running in D you are wearing the clutches as the car is trying to move forward against the brake and slipping the clutches just enough to stop the engine stalling. Yes there is a film of oil but there is still some wear going on potentially. This will also heat the oil and I have read elsewhere if it reaches a high enough temperature the clutches will automatically disengage which causes some people trouble when trying to manouver at low speed on slopes.

[Whaty]

4 hours ago, Coops said:

I think the overall wear on the clutch will be negligible over it's life, and in the event of any issues you'd find it difficult to prove it was leaving it in "D" when stationary causes it.

 

I have AutoHold on all the time and initially had issues when manoeuvring but now it's second nature.

 

When at traffic lights for extended periods, to save blinding people with my brake lights I just flick the handbrake on.

 

 

 

Hi Coops,

 

Sorry to be a pain but.... You use Auto-Hold but still use the Handbrake at lights to stop blinding people with your brake lights, does this mean that the brake lights are on even when using Auto-Hold?

 

Thanks,

Terry

[FelisBengalensis]

Auto Hold runs off the main service brake - hence triggering the brake lights - the handbrake takes over and turns the service brake and brake lights off.  This is why the symbol goes from Green to Red.  At least that's how it works one mine.

 

If I'm stopped for any length of time then the engine stops - as long as the Auto Stop/Start allows it and is enabled.

[daveo138]

1 hour ago, Whaty said:

 

You use Auto-Hold but still use the Handbrake at lights to stop blinding people with your brake lights, does this mean that the brake lights are on even when using Auto-Hold?

 

 

 

That is correct. My last two Passats (B6 & B7) didn't do this, but the latest Passat and Superb do. 

[IanJD]

1 hour ago, kenfowler3966 said:

Thats not really correct, if your foot is on the brake the clutch plates are seperated. If you sit with the handbrake on and foot off the brake with engine running in D you are wearing the clutches as the car is trying to move forward against the brake and slipping the clutches just enough to stop the engine stalling. Yes there is a film of oil but there is still some wear going on potentially. This will also heat the oil and I have read elsewhere if it reaches a high enough temperature the clutches will automatically disengage which causes some people trouble when trying to manouver at low speed on slopes.

It really is correct, go and read up about how a wet-clutch DSG gearbox actually works. If there's a film of oil there isn't any contact between the plates and therefore no wear, potentially or in practice. This applies sitting stopped with the car held on the brake, in this case the oil/box won't overheat no matter how long you sit there, that's why it's got an oil cooler big enough to cope with this. If it does overheat then the clutches can disengage, but this only happens if you sit holding the car on the DSG clutches (not brake) for an extended time on a hill or crawling up a hill with the clutches slipping all the time, which is not what the OP asked. None of this applies to a dry-clutch DSG which is equivalent to you holding the car on the clutch with a manual box.

[facet edge]

If you have a dry plate DSG, shouldn't there be instructions in the manual to put it in neutral whilst waiting at lights out in a queue if this is the case?

[IanJD]

16 hours ago, facet edge said:

If you have a dry plate DSG, shouldn't there be instructions in the manual to put it in neutral whilst waiting at lights out in a queue if this is the case?

If your foot is on the brake the clutch *should* be disengaged (*if* the DSG control system is designed properly...), then when you take your foot off it should engage slightly to provide "creep", which shouldn't cause any problem on the level. Creeping uphill (more torque needed = more heat) or holding on a slope for extended periods using the DSG will eventually cause overheating (and will wear the clutch plates), I think the manual does warn against this.

 

With a wet-clutch DSG there will always be some drag due to the oil film even when the clutch is nominally disengaged, this is one reason the fuel economy isn't so good as a dry-clutch (also power to pump the cooling oil around), but durability and immunity to abuse is much better than dry-clutch because of the oil cooler and no metal-to-metal contact while slipping.

Edited 9 May, 2017 by IanJD

[Whaty]

So, with a 6 speed wet clutch DSG (like mine) it's perfectly okay to leave the car in 'Drive' so long as you've either got your foot firmly on the brake or, the car is held using the Auto-Hold function?

 

Having read your posts a few times I think IanJD and kenfowler3966 are actually agreeing with each other. I 'think' you are both saying that (with the car in 'Drive') if your foot is firmly on the brake pedal the clutch plates are separated however, if you simply use the EPB to hold the car they are not and therefore, wear could occur.

Edited 9 May, 2017 by Whaty

[Speedman]

Reading this discussion with interest as I have a wet-clutch DSG, I don't use the auto hand brake ever but either keep my foot on the brake or manually put the hand brake on at lights etc, but either way I leave it in D. Would be interested to know if this is wearing the clutch. For info, I don't often use stop-start, and I am guessing others interested in this don't also.

[IanJD]

46 minutes ago, Speedman said:

Reading this discussion with interest as I have a wet-clutch DSG, I don't use the auto hand brake ever but either keep my foot on the brake or manually put the hand brake on at lights etc, but either way I leave it in D. Would be interested to know if this is wearing the clutch. For info, I don't often use stop-start, and I am guessing others interested in this don't also.

Correct, foot on brake = no clutch wear (certainly with wet DSG, probably with dry DSG depending on programming). I use stop-start (not auto hand brake) because it's quieter and the engine restarts faster than I can move my foot from the brake to the accelerator (with auto brake it doesn't restart until you press the accelerator, which is a nasty delay) -- and anyway, you can control stop/start using brake pressure, a light foot on the brake when you come to rest means the engine doesn't stop, a heavier push will stop it.

 

Hill hold (using the DSG, not auto brake) does mean the clutches are slipping, doing this for any length of time will overheat a dry-clutch DSG in the same way as holding the car on a hill on the clutch will do with a manual box -- the same applies to crawling uphill slower than the clutch-engaged idle speed. A wet-clutch DSG will put up with a lot more of this behaviour before getting too hot, but in theory this can still happen. In either case I believe the clutches disengage and you lose the hill hold function if overheating happens.

[Whaty]

Hi Speedman, rightly or wrongly I do not use the stop/start so my engine runs all the time. After reading these replies my understanding now is..... if I leave the car in Drive but have my foot firmly on the brake pedal, the clutches separate and there is no wear. If I leave the car in Drive and hold it on the EPB there will be some wear and the potential to overheat the oil.

 

I'm still not sure if I'm okay to leave the car in Drive and use the Auto-Hold function, is this the same as having your foot on the brake?

 

Hill Hold seems to work very well and simply seems to hold the car for the second or two it takes to move your foot from the brake pedal to the accelerator, I'd have to check the manual but I'm fairly sure it automatically releases after 2 seconds to avoid any chance of overheating or causing excessive wear to the clutch.

 

[Ootohere]

'Auto Hold' is just perfect and there so there is no need to sit with a foot on the brake and brake lights shining at road users behind.

Use Stop / Start or disable if you wish.

With 'Auto hold' there is no need for the Electric Brake when in 'D' or 'S' with the engine running.

Wonderful things the DSG in Wet or Dry clutch and i really do miss 'Auto Hold' when driving a DSG without it.

Also miss 'Coasting Function' when driving a DSG without that.

[ionelmc]

What's the 'Coasting Function'?

[Wardy]

A feature I wasn't aware of, until I starting reading ahead of my next Yeti arriving.

 

From the Owners Manual

Driving in neutral (“coasting”)1)

When releasing the accelerator pedal, the vehicle moves without the braking
effect of the engine.
Operating conditions
▶ The selector lever is in the D position.
▶ In the MAXI DOT display in the menu Settings activate the menu item Coasting
» page 42.
▶ The vehicle is travelling at more than 20 km/h.
▶ No trailer or other accessory is connected to the trailer socket.
The gear is automatically inserted again by depressing either the accelerator
or brake pedal.

[ionelmc]

Huh, the Superb manual don't seem to have anything about coasting. But in E mode (eco drive mode) it automatically coasts if you don't do anything with the pedals.

[Ootohere]

Good MPG's on trips where you can get that gear indication showing just 'D' and no gear number, or 'Coasting Function'. 

I have become addicted to it and getting back into hypermiing.

[daveo138]

1 hour ago, Awayoffski said:

'Auto Hold' is just perfect and there so there is no need to sit with a foot on the brake and brake lights shining at road users behind.

 

 

Indeed, there is no need to sit with your foot on the brake, but the brake lights are still on with auto hold. 

[Wardy]

29 minutes ago, ionelmc said:

Huh, the Superb manual don't seem to have anything about coasting. But in E mode (eco drive mode) it automatically coasts if you don't do anything with the pedals.

 

The same section as I quoted above, is included in the current revision of the Superb Mk3 manual, P.209.

[l4wrence]

I like Coast, it has interesting stories and captavating presenters.

[Ootohere]

Sad that the Brake lights are on with 'Auto Hold' with a Superb, they are not on with my SEAT.

[l4wrence]

Yes, when I sit in my seat, there are no brake lights.