Most ideal Spark Plugs

[TheClient]

2 hours ago, rayx said:

Well, always try to verify correct plug according engine code and year, 1.8 TSI needs different ones than 1.4 TSI etc.

As example, for EA888 engines (1.8 and 2.0 TSI) were recommended and fitted on assembly line plugs Bosch and NGK. According current ETKA they seem to left NGK and prefer Bosch now. Always wins the best volume price...

 

I am sure with that much oil in the cylinder as on photo above would give up any spark plug.

 

Yet, UK site of NGK say that IFR7X8G is one for upgrade, but German say it´s for Renault ... Also its resistance is higher, 5KOhm instead of 1KOhm

https://www.ngk.de/nc/en/product-finder/produktfinder/////IFR7X8G//

https://www.ngk.de/nc/en/product-finder/produktfinder/////PFR7S8EG//

 

In case I go for upgrade, I would go for LPG plug, which must survive higher temps. In this case PFR8S8EG

 

The devil is in the detail....  that is for sure.

 

The things is though,  that logic assumes that the PFR78EG at 1k ohm is optimal for the EA888 but that plug is still an aftermarket equivalent of aftermarket charts.

 

Do VAG publish detail of the 06H 905 601 A which is presumably based on it? Is it identical in all respects and is it definitely 1k ohm? The Bosch aftermarket is 6k ohm and all the other suitable NGK iridium derivatives seem to be 5k ohm except the LPG specified one.  Isn't the resistance a factor to suppress electical noise, so is it more about the plug design and what will function more than about an optimal r figure for the engine of the car...? 

[meaty101]

3 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

 

Really,  

i would never have thought that, NOT,  VW, Skoda, Seat & Audi should have asked your opinion, the 2nd Biggest Car Manufacturer in the world seemed to not be aware of that.

 

 

Oh that's nice!! I'll remember next time the manufacturers know best and i shouldn't question anything they do!! 

  Some great info from some nontheless.

 

[Ootohere]

LOL, Sorry, but that was a poor attempt at sarcasm on the 3 monkey VW Group that never admit to anything other than saying sales are increasing and scandals are over.

Question everything they do, because the internet and social media is what catches them out and gets their attention as they like to make out things are overblown in the media, social media / forums.

[meaty101]

Ok apologies I've took it all wrong buddy my fault. Yes you are right mate i always question them. In fact, if they release anything i believe the exact opposite!! Paranoid! !

[rayx]

3 hours ago, TheClient said:

Do VAG publish detail of the 06H 905 601 A which is presumably based on it?

 

I believe this is enough to confirm, ETKA before latest updates ... VAG numbers and their versions from OEM suppliers. Again, it is always about information and right source. The same info is in workshop manual. Hope one number has only one part version, see below why I mention that.

 

Concerning resistance, as you can see, Bosch plug 06H905611 is F5KPP332SBN and acc. their catalogue it is 1KOhm too. What is a bit strange, Bosch has for the same VAG Nr. yet plug  FR5KPP332S, and yes, this one is 6KOhm, but according the info from ETKA not the right one ... When links does not work, try this one and search http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/en_GB/product-search

 

I guess coils must be paired with plugs concerning their R, doesn´t mean it will not function with anything else. Look at explanation at more detailed page on NGK USA under specs

https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9940

or here

"Since resistor type plugs actually “resist” some of the spark energy, non-resistor type plugs actually deliver a more powerful spark.  It is for this reason that most racing plugs are non-resistor types.  However, in most automotive applications, a resistor plug is required for proper vehicle operation.  Use of non-resistor plugs in vehicles that call for a resistor type can result in rough idling, high-rpm misfire, and abnormal combustion."

[meaty101]

Just checked through my receipts today. The plugs were changed in 2012 at 54k miles. The car is now on 94k. So i would say due a change. The car sometimes doesn't start first time from cold and idles a little bit uneven. I put it down to carbon build up but a change of plugs might be worth a shot. Am i right in saying if i phoned Skoda or tps they would supply me with bosch plugs?

[rayx]

For EA888 engines interval for plugs 90kkm/56kmiles/6years. But best is to check the plugs on own eyes.

Skoda will give you what they see in ETKA, it can be either Bosch or Beru (now 06H905621 replaced by 06H905621A).

 

NGK they say not used anymore, I personaly still stick with it, but now aftermarket ones.

 

Mine after 88kkm/54,6kmiles, CDAA from 2010 on original pistons+rings, hope it will stay so Plugs in condition as were taken out from the engine, no cleaning done.

 

Edited 6 June, 2017 by rayx

[TheClient]

10 hours ago, rayx said:

 

Concerning resistance, as you can see, Bosch plug 06H905611 is F5KPP332SBN and acc. their catalogue it is 1KOhm too. What is a bit strange, Bosch has for the same VAG Nr. yet plug  FR5KPP332S, and yes, this one is 6KOhm, but according the info from ETKA not the right one ... When links does not work, try this one and search http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/en_GB/product-search

 

I guess coils must be paired with plugs concerning their R, doesn´t mean it will not function with anything else. Look at explanation at more detailed page on NGK USA under specs

https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9940

 

 

Your knowledge and insight using etka catalogues is obviously well developed.  Respect!

 

All of the aftermarket Bosch catalogues suggest FR5KPP332S which is Bosch part number 0 242 245 576. Same plug even for audi r8 or Octavia 1Z3/5 running CCZA in their catalogue.  As you point out there are some differences.  Moreover beyond the R value you point out, the Bosch aftermarket is 0.7mm gap, the genuine part spec is 0.8mm for the NGKs, yet FR5KPP332SBN implies 0.7mm as well. If I am reading the etka extract correct, the Bosch or Beru should be current offerings from Genuine parts.

 

See Bosch decoder here:

 

 

 

Having said that, I can remember back in some other cars, VAG moving down 0.1mm plug gap differences and ending on a lower figure than was first released with the car. Does it make sense to run NGKs at +0.1mm in that context though if 0.7mm is current spec?

 

It seems the Bosch "BN" version is not available for aftermarket supply as they are not mentioned in the bosch catalogue for specific cars we are discussing and I can't see any availability anywhere on an internet search. The extra BN obviously holds some of the answers to the differences we are looking at. 

 

Just to answer my curiosity, I got my old 06H905611 out of the garage (they were original in Apr 2011 CCZA) and measured the inline resistance just now - 1.5k ohms.  

 

So far, on our discussion, it seems there is a choice, ~1k resistance go for NGK, 0.7mm gap go with Bosch or genuine VAG bosch (edit 06H905611) you get ~1k ohm and 0.7mm!  Can't seem to do both aftermarket, maybe in the Beru haven't looked at those. AFAIR the densos aftermarkets  are at 5k ohms too.

 

Edit2: The Beru aftermarket catalogue suggests 14 F-5 DPURS2 is the current equivalent offering. There seems to be two product codes, Z347 and Z347SB. SB suffix appears again I can't readily see any difference in the specs on their catalogue. Both are 0.7mm gap, no resistance info given in specs, maybe that is a difference.

Edited 6 June, 2017 by TheClient

[meaty101]

It starts sinking in actually how old i am and i must've blinked and missed the point when spark plugs became so complicated. It wasn't like this when i had my old Sierra 2.0 pinto!! Never heard of Beru. Price wise, I'll go with either NGK or Bosch. Great thread though just wish i knew what i was on about

[TheClient]

It is not normally quite as complicated as this, when you start drilling into the detail.

 

I would normally expect a direct cross match from a genuine part to aftermarket on most plug spec detail aspects and also things like plug gap / resistance specified at manufacture, to stay the same and be the same from different plug manufacturers listing an "equivalent" product.. All those expectations now proven to be wrong for VAG.

 

I don't have any experience of BERU but availability is not as great in UK as NGK / Bosch.

 

As I see things now, as typing this,  it seems if you want all of the spec detail we have looked at so far to line up, you need the genuine Bosch plug from Skoda 06H905611, but they are pricey (maybe the Genuine Beru as alternative but TBC).  As an alternative, the NGK aftermarket has the right resistance but runs 0.8mm gap, the Bosch aftermarket uses the correct specified gap, but has higher resistance than genuine.. Choices I suppose. Did I say they would be the same?  Surely I didn't...  Question is, in practical terms do they make any difference? If so which dimension is more important.  I have NGK aftermarkets in mine which will have 5k ohm and 0.8mm - currently no problems at all.

 

I guess if you start to have misfire problems, moving to a genuine supplied plug may help eliminate the possible question over the detail nuances discussed here.

[rayx]

Well, you have many options, same as manufacturers. That VAG gives you any recommendation does not mean you have to strictly obey to that. I only prefer to have complete view so I can make best choice. But you can´t do that with everything.

 

So, everything can change, supplier vs. customer contracts are not for lifetime. So now Bosch and Beru are prefered concerning EA888 second generation at VAG. (Beru was old independent German brand, today part of FM on aftermarket ...)

 

Concerning the gap, see details from workshop manual, here details for 2.0 TSI CCZA but same for 1.8, they are aware of differencies. Concerning resistance, I would keep with 1kOhms, guess better sparks and combustion, less coils wear.

NGK and Bosch verified, BERU can´t find any details to resistance, so do you guess it will differ from those two?

[Ootohere]

Crux of the mater is that you take your car to a Main Dealer or Independent and 'often' the Tech, Fitter or Mechanic fits what the Factor brings to them or the parts desk hands over.

Many never even check the gap from removing from the packaging to fitting.  'Factory Set' they say.

Might be right, might have been right and a TPI meant that no longer right because the Manufacturer found out from owners finding out, 

but that has always been the way.

 

Then there are those that want more than OEM. 

They want a Remap, more from the OEM engine, a software change to the ECU and they go to Reputable Tuners or Dealers for 'Big Names in Tuning'.

 

No Dyno before to see what you have, no Spark plug removal to check, or replace so no idea of the suitability.

There are many like that, REVO, APR, SHARK Performance etc.

 

All the gear and not much idea often on the basics of Motor Mechanics and Engineering. Not even a NVQ.

Edited 6 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[planehazza]

So, are we thinking along the lines that BKR7EIX is infact not suitable for CCZA?

Edited 6 June, 2017 by planehazza

[TheClient]

33 minutes ago, rayx said:

Well, you have many options, same as manufacturers. That VAG gives you any recommendation does not mean you have to strictly obey to that. I only prefer to have complete view so I can make best choice. But you can´t do that with everything.

 

So, everything can change, supplier vs. customer contracts are not for lifetime. So now Bosch and Beru are prefered concerning EA888 second generation at VAG. (Beru was old independent German brand, today part of FM on aftermarket ...)

 

Concerning the gap, see details from workshop manual, here details for 2.0 TSI CCZA but same for 1.8, they are aware of differencies. Concerning resistance, I would keep with 1kOhms, guess better sparks and combustion, less coils wear.

NGK and Bosch verified, BERU can´t find any details to resistance, so do you guess it will differ from those two?

 

Good technical detail info as usual rayx. What are they meaning when they show +0.1mm on the Bosch and Beru and -0.1mm on the NGK?  Wear limit?  But why would NGK be negative "-"? Or do they mean acceptable variation, so the Bosch and Beru can widen but the NGK can only get narrower and be acceptable.

 

I still find it a little strange that the correct gap differs by 0.1mm depending on what plug manufacturer you use!

 

I'm not sure about Beru reistance, I can't find it either, most likely the VAG part is at 1k ohms. If someone has a set, they could measure as I did for the Bosch. I wouldn't be surprised though that the nearest BERU aftermarket product code I could find 14 F-5 DPURS2, is 5k ohm as that is a pretty common resistance value used in aftermarket.

[rayx]

I like to be precise, but sometimes it gets very frustrating and just complicating life too much You are right with acceptable variations, the dims are allowed gap tolerance, NGK comes at 0,8 and can only be less at 0,7, Bosch and BERU comes at 0,7 and can be up to 0,8.

 

Those are just recommendations, no one can force you to obey to that. With those manufacturer guarantees specs for their engine. When you want somethng else, no problem, testing on your own or your tech master.

 

I guess aftermarket has done testing too to give you an option to choose from, so it is really only matter of your "taste"

Edited 6 June, 2017 by rayx

[TheClient]

56 minutes ago, planehazza said:

So, are we thinking along the lines that BKR7EIX is infact not suitable for CCZA?

I don't think anyone has said that, as things stand presently. 

 

I also currently run the same as you, just be aware, they have 5k ohm resistance, rather than 1k ohm factory spec genuine plugs,  that is in common it would seem with many of the other aftermarkets listed equivalent and compatible plugs, including the NGK full iridium.

 

https://www.ngk.de/nc/en/product-finder/produktfinder/////BKR7EIX/

 

Also, be aware that Bosch compatible plugs (including VAG genuine) use 0.7mm and NGK 0.8mm, with factory specs accepting anything in between.

 

The resistance could make a difference on coil pack life, or in extreme circumstances spark generation. I am not sure how much difference it actually makes in practice, given the prevalence of 5k ohm resistor plugs on compatible lists but I am keeping an open mind.  VAG must have gone to the trouble to spec it for supply for some reason, hopefully not just to complicate things on cross checking aftermarket.

 

If you've got a problem, say repeated coil pack failure or engine misfire,  it could be worth trying genuine part 06H905611 (Bosch) or Aftermarket NGK PFR7S8EG and reporting back.

 

[Ootohere]

I admit to knowing nothing about the 1.8 or 2.0 TSI and their spark plugs having only been concerned with 1.4TSI / 1.4TFSI Twinchargers and their issues and spark plugs that VW recommend / spec, then that Remappers recommended and which had very short lives, 

then from experimentation and the knowledge of smart people spark plugs that actually perform well and are less prone to short lives 

& which are actually shorter reach than the OEM spark plugs.

Edited 6 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[rayx]

As this topic is general, no problem I notice on photo you posted the Denso ones are shorter. Would be interesting to measure on dyno, looks when electrodes moved off the designed centre it copes better with that beast, but are the hp/torque same? True is, I rather give up few hp/torque for longer engine life

Edited 6 June, 2017 by rayx

[Ootohere]

No idea on OEM plugs or the NGK crap REVO recommended as i would not run them.

Only use DENSO spark plugs and 99 ron minimum or 102 ron super unleaded.

 

APR show Dyno charts on websites, 95 ron or 98 ron, and no sellers of 98 / super in the UK and if you ask the likes of Awsome GTI on a 1.2 TSI remapped and where they get 98 Super you are likely to get the answer they run them on 97 ron.

 

All so much kidology going on.

 

[Gerrycan]

We do have VW head tech who contributes occasionally and I remember him posting that the orientation of the spark plug is very important in Direct Injected engines and it does make sense.

Never an issue on the old port injected or even carby fitted vehicles I used to own and work on.

Something to consider if you are removing and replacing spark plugs yourself as I'm not too sure how one ascertains what is correct orientation?

Edited 6 June, 2017 by Gerrycan

[planehazza]

19 minutes ago, Gerrycan said:

We do have VW head tech who contributes occasionally and I remember him posting that the orientation of the spark plug is very important in Direct Injected engines and it does make sense.

Never an issue on the old port injected or even carby fitted vehicles I used to own and work on.

Something to consider if you are removing and replacing spark plugs yourself as I'm not too sure how one ascertains what is correct orientation?

Yeah I could see it being pretty disastrous if you put them in upside down!

[rayx]

5 hours ago, TheClient said:

Edit2: The Beru aftermarket catalogue suggests 14 F-5 DPURS2 is the current equivalent offering. There seems to be two product codes, Z347 and Z347SB. SB suffix appears again I can't readily see any difference in the specs on their catalogue. Both are 0.7mm gap, no resistance info given in specs, maybe that is a difference.

 

3 hours ago, TheClient said:

I'm not sure about Beru reistance, I can't find it either, most likely the VAG part is at 1k ohms. If someone has a set, they could measure as I did for the Bosch. I wouldn't be surprised though that the nearest BERU aftermarket product code I could find 14 F-5 DPURS2, is 5k ohm as that is a pretty common resistance value used in aftermarket.

 

I see with BERU is that not easy, but when you look here and compare what FM recommends from Campion brand, plug OE214, we are on 1KOhm too. Unfortunately for BERU without details

[TheClient]

12 minutes ago, planehazza said:

Yeah I could see it being pretty disastrous if you put them in upside down!

I'm assuming he is possibly talking about the orientation of the plug in the cylinder head when it is correctly torqued i.e. where the ground electrode faces.  I would of thought that was fixed based on intended original design and thread reach. My thoughts can be proven wrong though....

[planehazza]

Just now, TheClient said:

I'm assuming he is possibly talking about the orientation of the plug in the cylinder head when it is correctly torqued i.e. where the ground electrode faces.  I would of thought that was fixed based on intended original design and thread reach. My thoughts can be proven wrong though....

Yeah I know, mate, I was just being facetious  Unless the threads in the head and plug are perfectly aligned, you won't get them to line up exactly AND be torqued identically.

[rayx]

25 minutes ago, TheClient said:

I'm assuming he is possibly talking about the orientation of the plug in the cylinder head when it is correctly torqued i.e. where the ground electrode faces.  I would of thought that was fixed based on intended original design and thread reach. My thoughts can be proven wrong though....

No, you are absolutely right, correct torque is always critical, then cleanliness

TSI 1.2&1.4 plugs.cs.en.pdf

 

Edited 6 June, 2017 by rayx