Dual Mass Flywheel on the 1.9 diesel Octavia. These useless contraptions should be taken out of these cars immediately. That is now two flywheels that have broken up causing untold damage to the clutch, bearings etc - cost £1000 a time!

 

Have replaced with a kit and a standard flywheel now. These flywheels are good for nothing.... Why put them in? They do not increase fuel efficiency....period!

I will not buy a car with this contraption in again least of a Skoda. This is scam to make money in the aftermarket.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Pallot said:

Dual Mass Flywheel on the 1.9 diesel Octavia. These useless contraptions should be taken out of these cars immediately. That is now two flywheels that have broken up causing untold damage to the clutch, bearings etc - cost £1000 a time!

 

Have replaced with a kit and a standard flywheel now. These flywheels are good for nothing.... Why put them in? They do not increase fuel efficiency....period!

I will not buy a car with this contraption in again least of a Skoda. This is scam to make money in the aftermarket.

 

 

 

Um, wrong on all levels I am afraid. DMF's DO reduce fuel consumption by as much as 15%, they also protect the transmission from damage due to torsional vibrations generated in the crank shaft. All you have done by replacing the DMF with a solid is papered over the cracks. What you more than likely have is a problem on the engine side, such as a faulty injector, low compression on one cylinder, partially blocked air inlet tract in the manifold causing an imbalance in the crank rotation. You won't necessarily feel this vibration, but it will dramatically shorten the life of the DMF.

You  may find that in a few thousand miles that either the drive plate of your new SMF/Clutch combo will break up from vibration damage, the input shaft bearings will let go, or worst case the end will snap off the crank shaft.

5 hours ago, octyal said:

 

Um, wrong on all levels I am afraid. DMF's DO reduce fuel consumption by as much as 15%, they also protect the transmission from damage due to torsional vibrations generated in the crank shaft. All you have done by replacing the DMF with a solid is papered over the cracks. What you more than likely have is a problem on the engine side, such as a faulty injector, low compression on one cylinder, partially blocked air inlet tract in the manifold causing an imbalance in the crank rotation. You won't necessarily feel this vibration, but it will dramatically shorten the life of the DMF.

You  may find that in a few thousand miles that either the drive plate of your new SMF/Clutch combo will break up from vibration damage, the input shaft bearings will let go, or worst case the end will snap off the crank shaft.

Wrong again, converting to SMF on the the 1.9 TDi  make's the engine run better and cleaner as less rotational weight, there is no known evidence if input shaft bearings letting go or crankshaft ends snapping. In fact converting to SMF is an approved repair by VAG themselves who even sell the conversion kit at all dealers and and put warrenty on it. The only TDi engine that cannot be converted is the 2.0tdi on all engine codes.

12 minutes ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

Wrong again, converting to SMF on the the 1.9 TDi  make's the engine run better and cleaner as less rotational weight, there is no known evidence if input shaft bearings letting go or crankshaft ends snapping. In fact converting to SMF is an approved repair by VAG themselves who even sell the conversion kit at all dealers and and put warrenty on it. The only TDi engine that cannot be converted is the 2.0tdi on all engine codes.

 

Shall I get you a picture of the snapped crank we have in our training room, removed from a 1.9tdi that had been converted to a smf?

We have plenty of scientific analysis of torsional vibration to show that the torsional vibrations can damage bearings. It isn't advisable  to convert to a SMF, although they do convert them.

I don't think that we as a manufacturer would spend millions of euros developing and refining the design of DMF's for nothing (considering we have made over 100 million since their introduction in 1985).

We have also seen plenty of Transits with knackered input shaft bearings and snapped cranks over the years as well.

 

This was removed from a 2007 Octavia that was fitted with a SMF conversion after 20k miles

5 hours ago, octyal said:

 

Um, wrong on all levels I am afraid. DMF's DO reduce fuel consumption by as much as 15%, they also protect the transmission from damage due to torsional vibrations generated in the crank shaft. All you have done by replacing the DMF with a solid is papered over the cracks. What you more than likely have is a problem on the engine side, such as a faulty injector, low compression on one cylinder, partially blocked air inlet tract in the manifold causing an imbalance in the crank rotation. You won't necessarily feel this vibration, but it will dramatically shorten the life of the DMF.

You  may find that in a few thousand miles that either the drive plate of your new SMF/Clutch combo will break up from vibration damage, the input shaft bearings will let go, or worst case the end will snap off the crank shaft.

Very very wrong!!!! 

None of those things happen with SMF.

i have done the direct comparison with my previous car. Fuel consumption actually FALLS with anSMF! The SMF lasts longer than the DMF (much longer, if not for twice as long) I have done the actual miles to prove this which I very much doubt you have ....

pull away is no different at all and no vibrations anywhere!

Your over dramatic reasoning is totally without foundation.

Just because you have a snapped crank does not mean this is the cause either.... That is obvious ....

As for a 'faulty injector'. May the Lord give you strength to see the light. Do you really believe I wouldn't know if a cylinder wasn't running properly....???

in addition should that dissinitigrate the flywheel with the added strong possibility of rendering the engine a rite off? What is the point of the risk and for no gain....???

Your reasoning and diagnosis are flawed  along with 'DMF' flywheels.. 

 

Popcorn time?

I'll bring the Kia-Ora orange juice.

1 hour ago, octyal said:

 

Shall I get you a picture of the snapped crank we have in our training room, removed from a 1.9tdi that had been converted to a smf?

We have plenty of scientific analysis of torsional vibration to show that the torsional vibrations can damage bearings. It isn't advisable  to convert to a SMF, although they do convert them.

I don't think that we as a manufacturer would spend millions of euros developing and refining the design of DMF's for nothing (considering we have made over 100 million since their introduction in 1985).

We have also seen plenty of Transits with knackered input shaft bearings and snapped cranks over the years as well.

 

 

1 hour ago, octyal said:

This was removed from a 2007 Octavia that was fitted with a SMF conversion after 20k miles

 

The very fact that VW were using the 1.9tdi engine long before  the use of DMF become common fitment tells me that they converting them does not cause major problems to the engine, how do i know the picture to be bacuase of a coversion to SMF, that could be a manufacture defect or a casting defect (does happen) your argument is flawed there. And on a past post i can't why a solid flywheel would lower compression in a cylinder or make an injector fail, that is all to with induction, the very fact that a SMF is lighter then DMF would in fact slightly increase MPG so argument flawed again.  

 

The fact that alot of mini cab drivers who drive the octy's 1.9 tdi's converted over to SMF and had better reliabilty also tells me that it has cause no major problems. so you get a tad more vibration through the cabin oh well a set softer rubber engine mounts can cure that if needs be. i'd live with it to be honest. 

1 hour ago, octyal said:

This was removed from a 2007 Octavia that was fitted with a SMF conversion after 20k miles

 

7 minutes ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

 

 

The very fact that VW were using the 1.9tdi engine long before  the use of DMF become common fitment tells me that they converting them does not cause major problems to the engine, how do i know the picture to be bacuase of a coversion to SMF, that could be a manufacture defect or a casting defect (does happen) your argument is flawed there. And on a past post i can't why a solid flywheel would lower compression in a cylinder or make an injector fail, that is all to with induction, the very fact that a SMF is lighter then DMF would in fact slightly increase MPG so argument flawed again.  

 

The fact that alot of mini cab drivers who drive the octy's 1.9 tdi's converted over to SMF and had better reliabilty also tells me that it has cause no major problems. so you get a tad more vibration through the cabin oh well a set softer rubber engine mounts can cure that if needs be. i'd live with it to be honest. 

 

1 hour ago, octyal said:

This was removed from a 2007 Octavia that was fitted with a SMF conversion after 20k miles

I would venture that IF the original casting was perfect then this is a perfect example of the damage that was inflicted on the crank when the DMF failed!!!!!

2 hours ago, Pallot said:

Very very wrong!!!! 

None of those things happen with SMF.

i have done the direct comparison with my previous car. Fuel consumption actually FALLS with anSMF! The SMF lasts longer than the DMF (much longer, if not for twice as long) I have done the actual miles to prove this which I very much doubt you have ....

pull away is no different at all and no vibrations anywhere!

Your over dramatic reasoning is totally without foundation.

Just because you have a snapped crank does not mean this is the cause either.... That is obvious ....

As for a 'faulty injector'. May the Lord give you strength to see the light. Do you really believe I wouldn't know if a cylinder wasn't running properly....???

in addition should that dissinitigrate the flywheel with the added strong possibility of rendering the engine a rite off? What is the point of the risk and for no gain....???

Your reasoning and diagnosis are flawed  along with 'DMF' flywheels.. 

 

 

The DMF is a symptom, not a cause. You already stated that you have had two and they have both failed. If you have a blown fuse, you replace it, and it fails again, do you fit a bigger one or find the cause? Same idea behind DMF failure, multiple failures on the same car indicate a fault with the engine. You wouldn't necessarily notice an injector that wasn't fuelling properly, it reduces the power on that cylinder as it isn't getting the correct amount of fuel, this leads to a lower amount of power to push the piston down. This creates a lurch in the crank, which then stresses the flywheel. 

At no point have I said that a flywheel will cause lower compression on a cylinder. Low compression on one cylinder has the same effect, it imbalances the crank, stressing the DMF. 

Yes, they used single mass on tdi's, lower powered tdi's that don't generate the same level of torque. 

I know everything I have stated is fact, and it has been proven in many millions of miles of testing, I can't help the fact that you don't appear to understand the principles of the combustion process and how it has an effect on the life of components in the rest if the drivetrain.

 

Oh, and that crank was removed from an Octavia that had been used as a taxi in a fleet of over 50 cars. They converted to SMF, had several crank failures, called us to look at them and once they understood the science behind why dmf's are fitted, converted every car back. Since then they have had no problems, as they look after the cars, service the injectors every 100k miles and sort any running problems before they cause trouble. 

PD diesels are known to suffer from injector blockages, especially when the incorrect oil is used (has to be low sulphur/ash) or the service schedule hasn't been followed.

Considering I have over 20 years in the motor trade, plus nearly five years working for the technical department of one of the biggest clutch manufacturers, your arguments are flawed.

Believe what you want to believe, I know that everything stated is true and correct on my part.

4 hours ago, octyal said:

 

The DMF is a symptom, not a cause. You already stated that you have had two and they have both failed. If you have a blown fuse, you replace it, and it fails again, do you fit a bigger one or find the cause? Same idea behind DMF failure, multiple failures on the same car indicate a fault with the engine. You wouldn't necessarily notice an injector that wasn't fuelling properly, it reduces the power on that cylinder as it isn't getting the correct amount of fuel, this leads to a lower amount of power to push the piston down. This creates a lurch in the crank, which then stresses the flywheel. 

At no point have I said that a flywheel will cause lower compression on a cylinder. Low compression on one cylinder has the same effect, it imbalances the crank, stressing the DMF. 

Yes, they used single mass on tdi's, lower powered tdi's that don't generate the same level of torque. 

I know everything I have stated is fact, and it has been proven in many millions of miles of testing, I can't help the fact that you don't appear to understand the principles of the combustion process and how it has an effect on the life of components in the rest if the drivetrain.

 

Oh, and that crank was removed from an Octavia that had been used as a taxi in a fleet of over 50 cars. They converted to SMF, had several crank failures, called us to look at them and once they understood the science behind why dmf's are fitted, converted every car back. Since then they have had no problems, as they look after the cars, service the injectors every 100k miles and sort any running problems before they cause trouble. 

PD diesels are known to suffer from injector blockages, especially when the incorrect oil is used (has to be low sulphur/ash) or the service schedule hasn't been followed.

Considering I have over 20 years in the motor trade, plus nearly five years working for the technical department of one of the biggest clutch manufacturers, your arguments are flawed.

Believe what you want to believe, I know that everything stated is true and correct on my part.

 

It is NOT the same car! !!! 

 

You asume far far too much all the time!

This is the second car it's happened to...

 

Edited 23 August, 20178 yr by john999boy
Personal abuse removed.

 

 

1 hour ago, octyal said:

 

The DMF is a symptom, not a cause. You already stated that you have had two and they have both failed. If you have a blown fuse, you replace it, and it fails again, do you fit a bigger one or find the cause? Same idea behind DMF failure, multiple failures on the same car indicate a fault with the engine. You wouldn't necessarily notice an injector that wasn't fuelling properly, it reduces the power on that cylinder as it isn't getting the correct amount of fuel, this leads to a lower amount of power to push the piston down. This creates a lurch in the crank, which then stresses the flywheel. 

At no point have I said that a flywheel will cause lower compression on a cylinder. Low compression on one cylinder has the same effect, it imbalances the crank, stressing the DMF. 

Yes, they used single mass on tdi's, lower powered tdi's that don't generate the same level of torque. 

I know everything I have stated is fact, and it has been proven in many millions of miles of testing, I can't help the fact that you don't appear to understand the principles of the combustion process and how it has an effect on the life of components in the rest if the drivetrain.

 

Oh, and that crank was removed from an Octavia that had been used as a taxi in a fleet of over 50 cars. They converted to SMF, had several crank failures, called us to look at them and once they understood the science behind why dmf's are fitted, converted every car back. Since then they have had no problems, as they look after the cars, service the injectors every 100k miles and sort any running problems before they cause trouble. 

PD diesels are known to suffer from injector blockages, especially when the incorrect oil is used (has to be low sulphur/ash) or the service schedule hasn't been followed.

Considering I have over 20 years in the motor trade, plus nearly five years working for the technical department of one of the biggest clutch manufacturers, your arguments are flawed.

Believe what you want to believe, I know that everything stated is true and correct on my part.

Well i still say some of your arguments are flawed and believe me i have more years then i care to mention, working on many different types of vehicle (been playing with cars since i was 7 i'm now 40) DMF's are flawed in every way and often are more trouble then there worth.

@Pallot - read your original post, where does it say that it is two separate cars?

 

@ Julian1001 - you say "playing with cars"? Not actually diagnosing and repairing correctly then?

 

Plenty of articles for you to read, backed up by the major players in the industry

 

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/dual-mass-flywheels-the-importance-of-a-full-failure-check/

 

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/dmf-failure-diagnosis-tips/

 

https://autotechnician.co.uk/so-solid-crew-dmfs-and-smfs/

 

http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/Dual Mass Flywheel Service.pdf

 

http://fmpmotorfactors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Dual-Mass-Flywheel-OE-for-a-reason.pdf

 

And that is my last word on the subject - carry on believing what you want

 

 

That should make for a good bit of learning, thanks octyal.

It didn't say-like everything else you took it on yourself to assume rather than be meticulous with the evidence.

I have had two of the engines and the disintegration of both DSM has happened - fact. One failure caused catastrophic damage to the Bellhousing too the second slightly less severer but still terminal. That is two out of two!

by the looks of it these flywheels are failing all over the place causing in the region of £1000 in damage to unsesuspecting owners. 

There is an issue which is evidently being ignored by Volkswagen.

This is your/their choice, as a customer I will publicise the issue and not buy again thank you .

I think this issue boils down to are they DMF failures or are they being killed. Without looking at contributory reasons for catastrophic failure, the question cannot be answered. Just replacing a DMF without answering the question can leave one open to another failure. Certainly Dual Mass Flywheels can also wear out if abused by high torque at low  juddering revs. 

Edited 24 August, 20178 yr by pikpilot
typo

Just to confirm most of my miles are motorway. I drive smoothly and carefully and do not do any towing.

Both cars were under the same conditions. Personally I would not choose another one of these engines or cars as the cost and risk of major breakdown are too high as proven by two identical failures. There are obviously thousands of others out there that have failed too....

 

I know the sound and handling of my cars very well and have many years experience with Diesel engines and mechanics.

This is not pilot error it is design error...

There is no point in complicated designs if you are designing in unreliability - particularly for little or no gain in performance as is the case with DMF.

Oh incidentally, I checked the MPG on my first decent journey today and it has actually increased as predicted with the replacement SMF !

i truly fail to see the point in a more expensive, less reliable, less economical piece of kit in a car ....

Oh yes I can ........ It wouldn't be aftermarket sales would it ???????

Ummmmm ......

 

 

 

My comments above were of a general nature and not specific to your failures.

1 hour ago, Pallot said:

There are obviously thousands of others out there that have failed too....

 

What about the millions that haven't failed?

 

Might be worth adding how old and how many miles both of your cars had when the DMF failed and if both owned by you from new.

Not sure that these cars are not mostly failing around the 100K miles plus mark...

Cars were bought second hand 30k on the clock......

Garage funny enough in both cases said they get these cars in all the time with same fault...... 

 

13 minutes ago, Pallot said:

Cars were bought second hand 30k on the clock......

 

Then I would suggest the previous owners may have caused premature DMF failure due to their driving style...

 

As a word of warning, you may need to choose your next care very carefully. Most modern TDi's will be fitted with a DMF and there will be horror stories about early failure on almost all marques.

That's very funny...... If not predictable. .... I have never heard such a string of lame excuses for a repeated failure ... 

i have a had two identical poor experiences, the garages both report great business with repairing this model and people on here recount similar failures but the component/design is not to blame! 

Its driver error! 

Sorry but that is patently untrue.

 

You've also not mentioned at what milage they've failed at. How long do you expect a DMF to last?

 

I appreciate you're obviously annoyed to have two similar failures but that doesn't necessarily correspond to a design flaw. You'll always find more evidence that a part is bad online as nobody reports them when working correctly.