100k is about the average mileage for a DMF to wear out - although in a well driven and maintained vehicle they can last for over 200k miles, the only reason there are a lot of stories about them failing is because of the sheer volume of cars on the road (by model).

The reason there is lots of stories about them wearing out or failing is because lots do!

The damage caused on failure can be very expensive indeed as the part is so connected and critical. At least with a SFM this is not the case plus they don't wear out!

A garage is a great place to gauge how regular these things fail and the evidence is very often I am afraid....

I would never buy a VW engine again without it being converted. 

Twice bitten now .....

In fact my trust in VW has now gone I would guess.....

The problem needs sorting and it looks as though VW don't acknowledge the problem ...... That's not a good start...

 

 

1 hour ago, Pallot said:

The reason there is lots of stories about them wearing out or failing is because lots do!

The damage caused on failure can be very expensive indeed as the part is so connected and critical. At least with a SFM this is not the case plus they don't wear out!

A garage is a great place to gauge how regular these things fail and the evidence is very often I am afraid....

I would never buy a VW engine again without it being converted. 

Twice bitten now .....

In fact my trust in VW has now gone I would guess.....

The problem needs sorting and it looks as though VW don't acknowledge the problem ...... That's not a good start...

 

So how old were they when they failed??

 

DMF to SMF converstion doesn't suit all engines, people have tried SMF on the CR140 and CR170 but had to convert back.

 

If you look at other manufactures you'll find just as many people complaining about DMF failure. Just as an example: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/dual-mass-flywheels/

So why persist with them? 

They are plainly unreliable and cause major expensive repair bills..... 

1 hour ago, Pallot said:

So why persist with them? 

 

As has been mentioned more than once in this thread, they are to smooth the torque/vibrations to make the car smoother and reduce less stress to the engine and transmission components.

 

You obviously don't see this as a remotely valid answer... :/

 

1 hour ago, Pallot said:

They are plainly unreliable and cause major expensive repair bills..... 

 

I see many more complaints about emissions control failures, for instance EGR values and DPF. Searching through the O2 forum, there are 73 topics with DMF in the title compared to 227 for DPF.

 

The failure of any engine component can result in expensive repair bills.

 

I

14 minutes ago, langers2k said:

 

As has been mentioned more than once in this thread, they are to smooth the torque/vibrations to make the car smoother and reduce less stress to the engine and transmission components.

 

You obviously don't see this as a remotely valid answer... :/

 

 

I see many more complaints about emissions control failures, for instance EGR values and DPF. Searching through the O2 forum, there are 73 topics with DMF in the title compared to 227 for DPF.

 

The failure of any engine component can result in expensive repair bills.

 

Yes but to insert a component known to fail is counter productive and adds no benefit. Reasonably careful driving will result in the same 'benefit'

Engines will mostly do 250k miles without missing a beat these days so to insert a crappy flywheel is utter madness.....

10 hours ago, Pallot said:

Yes but to insert a component known to fail is counter productive and adds no benefit. Reasonably careful driving will result in the same 'benefit'

Engines will mostly do 250k miles without missing a beat these days so to insert a crappy flywheel is utter madness.....

 

The below have been 'known to fail' at much less than 100k despite being designed to 'last the life of the engine':

- Air conditioning compressors

- Conrods

- HPFP

- Piston rings

- Timing chains

- Turbochargers

 

Are you suggesting we stop using all the above?

 

You say the DMF designed to fail yet people can get 200k+. Mine has caused zero issues at 120k, two of my friends have Passat TDIs which have done 140k and 170k on the original DMF's so far.

 

In short:

- Can they fail prematurely, yes.

- Are they designed to, no.

- Are they needed, yes, depending on engine design.

 

Hope you don't have any of the issues that are related to SMF conversions on this engine or any future engine you decide needs the DMF removed 

50 minutes ago, langers2k said:

 

The below have been 'known to fail' at much less than 100k despite being designed to 'last the life of the engine':

- Air conditioning compressors

- Conrods

- HPFP

- Piston rings

- Timing chains

- Turbochargers

 

Are you suggesting we stop using all the above?

 

You say the DMF designed to fail yet people can get 200k+. Mine has caused zero issues at 120k, two of my friends have Passat TDIs which have done 140k and 170k on the original DMF's so far.

 

In short:

- Can they fail prematurely, yes.

- Are they designed to, no.

- Are they needed, yes, depending on engine design.

 

Hope you don't have any of the issues that are related to SMF conversions on this engine or any future engine you decide needs the DMF removed 

 

Well said Langers.

 

DMF's only get bad press because of the costs involved in fitting them, overall prices have come down considerably, with the average cost being about £300 now for a mainstream car, with the price of the clutch as well, roughly £500 for the components. The labour is what makes it sting, especially with garage charging £50+ for labour. However, considering it's something that doesn't need changing until around 150k miles (or more in most cases), it's a low cost over the life of the vehicle.

Go and survey some garages and ask them how often below 130k the con rods have failed.... !!!

The after market on the DMF must be a joy to the OEMs ....

There is no practical need for them.

They fail very often and you divvy up the costs how you like but it's still very high to the consumer. 

Timing chains are easy to replace and relatively cheap... 

Your smoke screen does not hide the fact that this is around £800 to a thousand to replace and that's IF it cause no damage to surrounding components which failure often does.

its an uneccesary, unreliable, money making contraption....

44 minutes ago, Pallot said:

Go and survey some garages and ask them how often below 130k the con rods have failed.... !!!

 

The BXE engine is known to put conrods through the block at well under 130k.

 

53 minutes ago, Pallot said:

There is no practical need for them.

 

The 2.0CR engines have massive issues after DMF to SMF conversion showing there is a very real practical need for them.

 

55 minutes ago, Pallot said:

Timing chains are easy to replace and relatively cheap... 

 

VW chains are suppose to be maintenance free and last the lifetime of the engine. Despite that, plenty have snapped or skipped teeth causing massive damage to 1.4 and 2.0 TSI engines at much less than the 130k.

 

58 minutes ago, Pallot said:

its an uneccesary, unreliable, money making contraption....

 

Apart from when they are necessary, reliable and have added no extra cost to keeping the car to millions of drivers...

1 hour ago, Pallot said:

Timing chains are easy to replace and relatively cheap... 

 

Really? Google BMW N47 timing chain issues.........

 

and Vauxhall/Fiat 1.3 Jtd timing chain problems......

Edited 25 August, 20178 yr by octyal

4 hours ago, langers2k said:

 

The BXE engine is known to put conrods through the block at well under 130k.

 

 

The 2.0CR engines have massive issues after DMF to SMF conversion showing there is a very real practical need for them.

 

 

VW chains are suppose to be maintenance free and last the lifetime of the engine. Despite that, plenty have snapped or skipped teeth causing massive damage to 1.4 and 2.0 TSI engines at much less than the 130k.

 

 

Apart from when they are necessary, reliable and have added no extra cost to keeping the car to millions of drivers...

Just by quoting other component failures on VW engines does preclude the massive issues experienced with this component. Whilst my experiences are only mine -remind two out two cars.... Many others are experiencing exactly the same and garages who have not mentioned repeat failures of other major components on these engines - funny enough....

There is a big issue! Other issues there may be but this is a BIG problem - SMF flywheels are not prone to these huge mechanical issues....

VW are clearly burying their heads in the sand or enjoying the aftersales income.

 

Your argument is a little like saying pneumatic tyres are nothing but trouble - easily punctured - let's go back to solid rubber tyres.

Just to add on the other side of this argument (As you say people don't shout about things that don't go wrong) my 2.0tdi pd scout is approaching 170k miles with no signs of impending failure of the DMF (Or DPF, cam, turbo, clutch etc.) 

Just saying!

Edited 25 August, 20178 yr by Anddenton

On 8/23/2017 at 18:34, P6bJOHN said:

I'll bring the Kia-Ora orange juice.

 

And, I'll be your dog. 

11 minutes ago, Anddenton said:

Just to add on the other side of this argument (As you say people don't shout about things that don't go wrong) my 2.0tdi pd scout is approaching 170k miles with no signs of impending failure of the DMF (Or DPF, cam, turbo, clutch etc.) 

Just saying!

 

OOh........................Thats tempting fate, bud.

24 minutes ago, Tilt said:

 

OOh........................Thats tempting fate, bud.

I know, but having got the 2008 car in March 2010 on 30k miles I have at least had my money's worth.

 

Reading all these threads I just like to point out that these cars can occasionally run to a good mileage without problem.

On 25/08/2017 at 17:32, Wino said:

Your argument is a little like saying pneumatic tyres are nothing but trouble - easily punctured - let's go back to solid rubber tyres.

 

On 25/08/2017 at 18:38, Anddenton said:

I know, but having got the 2008 car in March 2010 on 30k miles I have at least had my money's worth.

 

Reading all these threads I just like to point out that these cars can occasionally run to a good mileage without problem.

 

On 25/08/2017 at 18:38, Anddenton said:

I know, but having got the 2008 car in March 2010 on 30k miles I have at least had my money's worth.

 

Reading all these threads I just like to point out that these cars can occasionally run to a good mileage without problem.

Solid tyres are not a realist alternative. An analogy similar to saying why not go back to the horse and cart...

On 25/08/2017 at 12:38, octyal said:

 

Really? Google BMW N47 timing chain issues.........

 

and Vauxhall/Fiat 1.3 Jtd timing chain problems......

Ehh ????? 

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 09:54, Pallot said:

Ehh ????? 

 

You said earlier that timing chains were easy to replace and reliable, those are 2 examples of common chain issues that affect modern cars. In the case of the BMW's it's definitely not an easy or cheap job, as it requires the engine to be removed due to it being at the back.

1 hour ago, octyal said:

 

You said earlier that timing chains were easy to replace and reliable, those are 2 examples of common chain issues that affect modern cars. In the case of the BMW's it's definitely not an easy or cheap job, as it requires the engine to be removed due to it being at the back.

 

1 hour ago, octyal said:

 

You said earlier that timing chains were easy to replace and reliable, those are 2 examples of common chain issues that affect modern cars. In the case of the BMW's it's definitely not an easy or cheap job, as it requires the engine to be removed due to it being at the back.

 

1 hour ago, octyal said:

 

You said earlier that timing chains were easy to replace and reliable, those are 2 examples of common chain issues that affect modern cars. In the case of the BMW's it's definitely not an easy or cheap job, as it requires the engine to be removed due to it being at the back.

But I completely fail to see any relevance to the subject under discussion ...

its totally unrelated....

39 minutes ago, Pallot said:

But I completely fail to see any relevance to the subject under discussion ...

its totally unrelated....

 

You claim that components that can't last 250k shouldn't be fitted and are a money making exercise.

I asked if that should also apply to timing chains (and others) as they have been shown to fail at low milages with significant costs to repair/replace after failure.

You stated that timing chains are cheap and easy to replace compared to DMFs.

Octyal showed that's not always the case.

You then failed to see how it's related to a topic concerning premature failure of unnecessary and expensive to replace components.

 

The biggest difference appears that you've not mentioned having timing chain issues, so there are currently free of your ridicule...

 

What are you trying to achieve with this thread?

 

Is it just a friendly warning to others that DMF's can fail and can be expensive?

Is it to recommend SMF conversion on 1.9TDi PD engines?

Is it to get an apology from Skoda?

 

Just curious as you obviously aren't going to change your view on DMF's.

any suggestions for a SMF converstion to a 1.9tdi Octavia estate in the north manchester area? 

I must admit that as Diesel engines have been around for years and years without the need for a DMF and engines racked up astronimacal miles with no major issues I struggle to understand why in the last 20 years or so they suddenly became a necessity to prolong engine life .... Have they started making crankshafts and other components to an inferior standard resulting in them no longer being able to withstand these vibrations..... This could explain why the 1.9 engine designed and built for an SMF should break its crankshaft after converting back to a set up it was designed for.

 

Having said this at least the VAG group cars seem, in most cases, capable of exceeding well in excess of 100,000 miles with no issues .... My last car was a Citroen C5 and the Citroen forums where full of complaints of DMF failures at as low as 30,000 miles and other manufacturers have similar reliability issues with them too.

My first Skoda was an Octavia 1.9TDi 105ps PD which I bought at 31k. One day, I noticed that there was some juddering as I changed gear. The following day the dual mass flywheel failed and the car was recovered by the AA to the local franchised dealer. That occurred at 51k. Following some online research on DMFs (where I found out about Briskoda!), DMFs were developed to smooth out the torque between the engine and gearbox and give a more refined power train as engines become more refined and efficient. It turned out with a modicum of research that not only were DMFs failures common on VAG cars but also Mondeos and Toyota Avensis. My failure occurred 10 years ago. I sometimes think that the reliability of a car in its later life is affected by how it’s driven in its early life....My Octavia certainly had some evidence of a early hard life.