Boats

[Ttaskmaster]

On 26/09/2018 at 21:36, VWD said:

Tt- it might be cheaper to look at some of the redundant fishing boats.

TBH, I find a lot of boats have too much wasted space for what I had in mind. Fishers and minesweepers have many open areas on the cockpit/stern area that I'd rather fill with more saloon space or something.

I'd also expect to be the only person aboard with any interest in seamanship, so I'd need something I could crew just by myself, which likely means keeping it fairly small... 20m or less, perhaps?

 

I dunno. Still very early days for what is probably a pipe dream. I seem to like a lot of the features on Scandinavian boats, though. Sargo and Nord Star have some great designs!

 

I occasionally toy with the idea of learning to sail and I like the thought of learning all the jargon.

Do people still syncopate nautical speech, or is that too pretentious? Mains'l, Heads'l, T'gallant, Fo'c's'le... stuff like that?

 

 

 

[KenONeill]

Well, fo'c's'le (forecastle) is the only one of those that applies to any vessel that relies solely on a donkey for propulsion anyway. 

[181ce]

Ttaskmaster

Yep nautical speak still happens,it removes all ambiguity.

Have a look at Willard30/Vega30 as an example of distance/economy/simplicity i.e how it used to be ca. 1300miles on 200 gallons @ average 7 knots.

Any kind of passage making is gonna be full displacement or sails unless you have enormously deep pockets.

Rough guide 4 times the speed=12times the fuel.   

 

[Ttaskmaster]

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

Well, fo'c's'le (forecastle) is the only one of those that applies to any vessel that relies solely on a donkey for propulsion anyway. 

That'd be a canal boat?

 

38 minutes ago, 181ce said:

Ttaskmaster

Yep nautical speak still happens,it removes all ambiguity.

Have a look at Willard30/Vega30 as an example of distance/economy/simplicity i.e how it used to be ca. 1300miles on 200 gallons @ average 7 knots.

Any kind of passage making is gonna be full displacement or sails unless you have enormously deep pockets.

Rough guide 4 times the speed=12times the fuel.   

 

But is it a Mainsail, or a Mains'l? Topgallant or t'gallant? Does anyone talk like they're in a Hornblower novel, in other words? I have friends who sailed small boats on lakes when they were younger, but they're also quite pretentious about most things...!

 

I looked at those (and some other) Willards... very much '70s caravan and not my style, especially with flybridges. I think I'm gonna need some deeper pockets - Probably have to find a military boat builder and get them to custom-build something that fit my tastes. Anything else looks either too old, too new, or too expensive. 

 

Also, 7 knots seems really slow if you're doing 1300miles. Even if you piloted the boat in 12 hour shifts, that's what... 13 days?

If I wanted to take the Mrs over to Norway (about 800nm, including 250nm across the North Sea in one go) for a couple of nights, I make that 9 days... it'd be time to come home before we even got there!

 

Nah, I'm guessing boating probably isn't my thing. My wife and I aren't fans of bright sun and hot weather, so all those sunbathing pads and fly-decks are probably wasted on us. 

 

 

[181ce]

Yep there's passage making i.e your house moves country/continent.

Or coastal cruising fast/slow boat take your pick

 

Or day cruising/daysailing ie my original post

Drag something manageable to the water ***** about for the day drag home,cheap practical,no mooring,no worries as to what boat is doing when your at home,just look out the window.

 

Now when I retire,trawler yacht,Benodet or similar as base potter up and down to and from the med.

[VWD]

Most of the old wooden fishing boats ( and I'm mainly familiar with the herring ringnet types) had the galley (boat talk for kitchen and dining area) and sleeping accomodation forward of the hold in the fo'c's'le , with the wheelhouse aft ( at the rear of the vessel). But I know of one old ex fishing boat that was converted into a tour/occasional cruise vessel many years ago and the conversion involved conversion of the fish hold.

[KenONeill]

@Ttaskmaster - "Donkey" is what real sailors call an engine. Other than fo'c's'le, all the names you've quoted are for sails, and any reference to a tops'l, topg'lant, or indeed anything other than a jib, main or mizzen sail almost certainly only applies to a square-rigged "tall ship" (eg the SV Cutty Sark, HMS Victory...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail_plan will explain sails and their names way better than I would.

[181ce]

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

@Ttaskmaster - "Donkey" is what real sailors call an engine. Other than fo'c's'le, all the names you've quoted are for sails, and any reference to a tops'l, topg'lant, or indeed anything other than a jib, main or mizzen sail almost certainly only applies to a square-rigged "tall ship" (eg the SV Cutty Sark, HMS Victory...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail_plan will explain sails and their names way better than I would.

Yards ,shrouds,storm sails ,spinnakers,halyards etc etc it's enough to make one start the donkey .

Junk rig, supremely understated cos it don't look sexy,it's the way forward if you wanna sail lol.

[181ce]

Actually here's an interesting boat.

It's very much a sailboat type hull(or if you prefer reminiscent of early motor launches).

Long slender beam carried right aft and fine entry and super light weight,the result is the hull planes at c.10 knots and maxes out at about 18.

Fuel consumption quoted at 0.5lt/HR at 10 knots with a range of 300nm.

Even the propulsion is sailboat inspired Volvo saildrives(think fixed stern drive through the bottom of the hull).

Yours from 101,000 euro.

 

POGO LOXO 32

[Ttaskmaster]

2 hours ago, KenONeill said:

@TtaskmasterOther than fo'c's'le, all the names you've quoted are for sails, and any reference to a tops'l, topg'lant, or indeed anything other than a jib, main or mizzen sail almost certainly only applies to a square-rigged "tall ship" (eg the SV Cutty Sark, HMS Victory...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail_plan will explain sails and their names way better than I would.

Let me re-re-re-phrase - Do people call it a Tops'l, or do they just say Topsail, for example.

Do they talk with apostrophes all over the place, like a pretentious pirate.

 

I don't care what a sail is for, I'm asking if they talk like it's still the 1700s. As in, "Gang ye aft a'baft the mizzenl'arboard gang, a'beam the fo'c's'le, and make berth a'berth the berth" sort of thing.

 

 

[KenONeill]

3 hours ago, 181ce said:

Yards ,shrouds,storm sails ,spinnakers,halyards etc etc it's enough to make one start the donkey .

Junk rig, supremely understated cos it don't look sexy,it's the way forward if you wanna sail lol.

"goose wings", double top gallants, Stuns'ls, sky sails...

 

I mean we could go on for a while like this, yes?

[KenONeill]

2 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Let me re-re-re-phrase - Do people call it a Tops'l, or do they just say Topsail, for example.

Do they talk with apostrophes all over the place, like a pretentious pirate.

 

I don't care what a sail is for, I'm asking if they talk like it's still the 1700s. As in, "Gang ye aft a'baft the mizzenl'arboard gang, a'beam the fo'c's'le, and make berth a'berth the berth" sort of thing.

 

 

"Focsil" still exists, as sometimes does after-castle, abeam still exists, but beyond those you don't need to to even know most of the words unless you're on a tall ship, and we started off with motor boats.

[Ttaskmaster]

11 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

you don't need to to even know most of the words unless you're on a tall ship, and we started off with motor boats.

I'm just tired of various hobbies where I encounter people talking all historyck-like, even when things have moved on a few centuries, for reasons of exclusivity... a bit like Management Buzzwords. 

And knowing how pretentiously eccentric some of my friends like to get, I'd be wary about letting them on my ultra-modern motoryach, lest I be tempted to hoof them over the side for wibbling on about yardarms like they're an Admiral!

 

Still undecided about what I want, though. Seems you get very little for your money with these things.

[181ce]

39 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Still undecided about what I want, though. Seems you get very little for your money with these things.

Look at the LOXO I'd buy one in a heartbeat,if I had the money,in reality I'll be leaving 3/4 grand in Brittany for something like an ultimate 515 or B2 marine 500,keep me quiet until retirement .

[Ttaskmaster]

33 minutes ago, 181ce said:

Look at the LOXO I'd buy one in a heartbeat,if I had the money

 

Nah, too small. I'd need berths for 4-6 in 3 separate cabins. Daren't go overseas without offering the in-laws a space!

But then, I'm mostly interested in just being 'out there' and doing the miles, rather than having anywhere I'd actually like to go. I've always had the same feelings when driving the car and riding the bike - I live the journey, and each destination is but a doorway to another.

 

54 minutes ago, 181ce said:

something like an ultimate 515 or B2 marine 500,keep me quiet until retirement .

Riviera 515?

http://www.riviera.com.au/515-suv-home.html

 

[181ce]

2 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

 

Nah, too small. I'd need berths for 4-6 in 3 separate cabins. Daren't go overseas without offering the in-laws a space!

But then, I'm mostly interested in just being 'out there' and doing the miles, rather than having anywhere I'd actually like to go. I've always had the same feelings when driving the car and riding the bike - I live the journey, and each destination is but a doorway to another.

 

Riviera 515?

http://www.riviera.com.au/515-suv-home.html

 

Nah this is more my speed

https://www.nordhavn.com/models/52/

[Ttaskmaster]

18 hours ago, 181ce said:

Nah this is more my speed

https://www.nordhavn.com/models/52/

Must be really slow - They don't even give any speeds in the specs! Nordhavn have some nice elements to their designs... but also some hideous ones.

I'm really not a fan of a Flybridge, although I do like the idea of a separated Pilothouse.

 

I think I'm mostly into Sargo type styling. I love the way they did the midship cabin on the 36. Perhaps if they do a model around the 15m sort of size, that'd be my go-to.

 

[181ce]

1 hour ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Must be really slow -

 

Full displacement hull, 1.3times the square root of waterline length,approx 9knots.

HP required,rule of thumb 2bhp per ton so about 80,hence the 4000mile range ,pushing 3mpg in a 40tonne boat.

Sargo are superb machines but in common with all their brethren gallons per mile ,I plan on actually moving around a bit when I retire, there's not a hope in hell I could afford to run anything planing hulled.

[Ttaskmaster]

2 hours ago, 181ce said:

Full displacement hull, 1.3times the square root of waterline length,approx 9knots.

HP required,rule of thumb 2bhp per ton so about 80,hence the 4000mile range ,pushing 3mpg in a 40tonne boat.

Sargo are superb machines but in common with all their brethren gallons per mile ,I plan on actually moving around a bit when I retire, there's not a hope in hell I could afford to run anything planing hulled.

 

I thought the semi-disp/planing hull type boats were supposed to still get OK-ish MPG at the lower speeds, with just the planing ability if you fancied doing 20-35kts occasionally?

Maybe 3-400nm range at best, rather than thousands, but enough to hop around in the Off-Shore range, or to crank it up and scare yer mum-in-law?

 

 

[181ce]

1 minute ago, Ttaskmaster said:

 

I thought the semi-disp/planing hull type boats were supposed to still get OK-ish MPG at the lower speeds, with just the planing ability if you fancied doing 20-35kts occasionally?

Maybe 3-400nm range at best, rather than thousands, but enough to hop around in the Off-Shore range, or to crank it up and scare yer mum-in-law?

 

 

Ehh,not really tbh,mabey 70% at displacement speeds at best,planing=planning

[Ttaskmaster]

17 hours ago, 181ce said:

Ehh,not really tbh,mabey 70% at displacement speeds at best,planing=planning

 

So how the heck do some of these small boats bimble across several hundred miles of big seas, at just 7-10kts, with only a 'retired couple' aboard? They can't be doing more than 10 hours at the helm and they'd be offshore for days - I'm pretty sure it's not considered safe to just 'drop anchor' for the night, and I doubt they'd have several hundred metres of anchor chain/rope...?

[181ce]

8 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

 

So how the heck do some of these small boats bimble across several hundred miles of big seas, at just 7-10kts, with only a 'retired couple' aboard? They can't be doing more than 10 hours at the helm and they'd be offshore for days - I'm pretty sure it's not considered safe to just 'drop anchor' for the night, and I doubt they'd have several hundred metres of anchor chain/rope...?

Anything crossing an ocean will most likely have ,radar,A.I.S.(like a planes transponder),and will definitely have an autopilot and a big f@#k off radar reflector.

,GPS,and an EPRIB.

mostpeople do 3/4hr rotating watches,why would you drop anchor ?,and it's most likely too deep anyway,in reality outside of heavy weather,shipping lanes ,harbour entrances the chances of hitting anything in the middle of an ocean are pretty slim,(whale/container/tree).

Consider all the solo racers/circumnavigators,at best they'll set a tiny bit of sail to maintain direction,normally they just sleep,mabey heave to in extreme circumstances.

Days offshore and big seas are exactly what displacement boats/offshore sailboats are built for.

Personally iI don't envisage anything more arduous than coast hopping up and down to the med.

 

[Ttaskmaster]

19 minutes ago, 181ce said:

Anything crossing an ocean will most likely have ,radar,A.I.S.(like a planes transponder),and will definitely have an autopilot and a big f@#k off radar reflector.

,GPS,and an EPRIB.

mostpeople do 3/4hr rotating watches,why would you drop anchor ?,and it's most likely too deep anyway,in reality outside of heavy weather,shipping lanes ,harbour entrances the chances of hitting anything in the middle of an ocean are pretty slim,(whale/container/tree).

Consider all the solo racers/circumnavigators,at best they'll set a tiny bit of sail to maintain direction,normally they just sleep,mabey heave to in extreme circumstances.

Days offshore and big seas are exactly what displacement boats/offshore sailboats are built for.

Personally iI don't envisage anything more arduous than coast hopping up and down to the med.

 

 

That's what I mean - You can't just drop anchor... but if there's only two of you, surely you don't spend several days just helming the boat alone while the other one sleeps, either?

I also wouldn't have thought it'd be safe to just go to sleep for several hours - Won't you drift way off course or something?

That's why I expected to handrail the coasts round to Norway...

[181ce]

Yep,that's the way it works,don't forget the autopilot is driving 90% of the time.

[Ttaskmaster]

On 03/10/2018 at 21:59, 181ce said:

Yep,that's the way it works,don't forget the autopilot is driving 90% of the time.

What, you just set that and go to bed for 8 hours, fully expecting to still be afloat, upright and going in the right direction come morning?