EV real world range and cost to charge

[Ootohere]

& if looking for a BMW i3 and wanting to go further between charges and not with the Range Extender one there is the 27.2 kWh or 37.9 kWh usable battery ones.

[Ootohere]

http://autoexpress.co.uk/news/360979/electric-car-rapid-charging-cheaper-petrol-or-diesel-pump-prices-soar

 

The 'Averages' are a load of b0llocks and as for the Corsa electric and if it is 50 kWh usable battery and 222 miles, that is pure Pith. based on 4.4 miles / kWh.

Padstow, Pontypool or Perth. 

I just know about Perth.  35 pence a kWh on Council Rapid chargers, 62 pence @ PodPoint, and as much as 79 pence a kWh at others, 

maybe the TESLA chargers are helping their averages.

( there is a lot of the UK north of Perth and of Inverness were the Highland Regional Council has a tariff of 70 pence a kWh for rapid charging.)

Edited 17 September, 2023 by toot

[lol-lol]

Something non EV driver probably do not appreciate is that I can make the range of my EV, the cute little Renault Zoe, a distance from say 160 miles to 240 miles with just a little change to my cruising average to some quite another order or magnitude if I choose and have the time ie a Zoe has done well over 400 miles at town speeds, English and certainly Welsh urban speeds.

 

When I do get home I will charge up and it will cost about the same as the price of a tank of hydrocarbon fuel has risen in the last month ie about £4.

 

One an get free bungs of electricity from ones provider, as Electroverse from Octopus does.  I can be billed monthly and actually charging up at a public charger will go on my monthly house bill and it probably will not affect my normal £125 a month Direct Debit that I pay so effectively it has zero effect on my month to month finances, might have to pay a bit more next month depending on capped energy prices.

 

Real world range, plenty for short and medium ie up to 200 mile round trips.  Cost to charge, negligible, 9p per kWh for 99% of the time.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 September, 2023 by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

^^^ Fantastic.  But every time the cost of Rapid Charging compared to petrol or diesel then Home / Work fast charging or Fast public charging need not be brought into it.

 

If the Average Rapid Charging is 50 pence a kwh and you want 30 kWh that is £15.00   & if getting 3.5 miles to the kWh that is 105 miles.

So OK compared to a ICE if getting under 52.5 MPG & if a Gallon is £7.50 or more.

 

Petrol @ 146 pence a litre, £6.64 or so.  

 

Rapid Charging at Public chargers is not just an average 50 pence a kWh though.    So lets say 60 pence.  30 kWh @ 60 pence is £18.00. 

 

.............

I had 13kWh of AC charging free yesterday and today, & @ 4.2 miles per kWh that is 54.5 miles free miles.

I have had 43 kWh at no cost during the week, so that is another about 170 miles worth.

 

Nothing to do with the cost of Public Rapid charging though. 

If i had paid for Public Charging near to home on Council Chargers with 50 kW DC that would have been £23.00

With Aberdeenshire Council £26.32

If in Perth & Kinross on their councils chargers £19.60

Edinburgh City Council £30.80

& Highland Region Council £39.20          To get @ 4 miles a kWh,  only 224 miles.

 

Edited 17 September, 2023 by toot

[lol-lol]

On 13/09/2023 at 11:21, wyx087 said:

Nice they've mentioned home EV charging tariff at the very end.

 

 

That Model 3 RWD efficiency is staggering. I think in the hottest 30c weather my MY LR would get around 4 mi/kWh, so around 300 miles. I found it to have best efficiency around 20c. So  the M3 RWD could probably hit 5 mi/kWh in ideal conditions.

 

M3 RWD or MG4 is the pick of the bunch, I think. Also the second hand Zoe 40 is a good buy.

 

All the Zoes, 22, 40 and 50 kwh battery can be a great buy and buying the right one for ones longest journeys ie 80 mile, 160 mile or 200 mile is the biggest choice issue.

 

As Jimmy Carter, the ex US president, and his government administration, what they know during the fuel crisis of the early-mid 1970s, was that cars, and this would mean purely ICE cars of course.  Do incredibly better fuel consumption around 55 mph (or at least 60-ish and under) than they  do at around the 70 mph cruising speed.  this was a matter of national economic stability as the US had to decreases its fuel usage so it really on used oil drilled in the US, land and coastal waters, and not buy from the Middle East hence the introduction of the "Double Nickel" ie the 55 mph speed limit.  Of course people drove at up to 60 mph with the tolerance of speed measuring and law enforcement prosecution and the US imported a whole lot less oil from those countries trying to excerpt economic muscle.  They succeeded. 

 

The Zoe can easily get well above 4 miles per kWh if the temperature of above 10 C and at least that shown above even when it is cold ie zero degrees zero or thereabout but one may need to back off to 60-65 indicated to get that as the aero drag coefficient is more like 0.3 is slightly above that rather than the TESLA close to 0.2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Well it was around freezing this morning and yesterday in places in Scotland and below 10*oC in lots of places & it is September.

So maybe on Average for 4 months the ambient day and nights could be below 10*oC.

 

That is what the EV drivers travelling in some areas need to remember.  That and the AA, RAC, SMMT , Uk Government and many more are in a parallel Universe, 

or a bit Southern based.  Even the Scottish Government can hardly see north of the Central Belt of Scotland.

[Ootohere]

http://autocar.co.uk/car-news/best-cars/most-efficient-electric-cars

Or not that efficient and what matters is when they are not being used in the very best of conditions and with occupants and heating or AC used.

[Ootohere]

I am sitting charging for free near the A77 in the torrential rain in my MINI that when 99% charged will show it will do 104 miles and just now will do that.   I had a quick word with a very nice man in a BMW i3, last of them.   He tells me he is getting 225 miles range.  I asked if he actually does and he says yes.    The thing is he is sitting on what is supposedly a 22kW AC charger that is actually 7 kW and I asked why he is not using the CCS and he says he is getting 50 kW where he is and the big charger is only 43 AC.    You can't always help people especially when getting soaked. 

(Apparently, Best not use the fastest or go to a 50 KW charger or above 80%.  I did want to ask how 80% could take him 225 miles.)

 

I tried explaining that the Websites tell 4 hours on a 22 kW AC Charger.

That is because the car takes a max 11 kWh AC charge,   4 x 11kWh would be 44 kWh of a charge.   

He can not get 44 kW in 2 hours, and actually can not take 44 kWh it is a total capacity of 42.2 kWh & a usable capacity of near 39 kWh.

 

His son in law and daughter have EV,s and told him how they work.  So we know who knows best.

Edited 5 October, 2023 by toot

[lol-lol]

Another very pleasant charging session at the Ionity chargers on the opposite side of the motorway of the recently refreshed Mayor Service near Newport South Wales.  I use my Electroverse (Octopus) RFID card and get a bit of discount for paid 63p per kWh.  Good site with a Subway there for the loo stop and drink and food if required.

 

Super fast charger, way beyond what my Zoe can take so I started getting 45kws with the battery at 39 % which dropped down to 30 kw about 15 minutes later (but I was off at Subway anyway) when I unplugged with 56 % or so level showing.   Q4 e-tron charging next to me, two spare spaces and I see plinths for another 6 chargers when demands go up to need the extra bays which are already marked out.  He was getting well over 100 Kw even with my Zoe parked on the same pair of chargers.  He was Octopus Electroverse customer too.  The an Audi e-tron GT pulled in.  Apparently just a day old, Q4 e-tron was 3 weeks old.  GT driver no Octopus RFID or Ionity App so had to download it, I thought it would have the contactless card option but apparently not.

 

So just over a £5 on the Electroverse account, spent more time yabbing than having the charger in as really just wanted another 40 miles of range to give me a good buffer and use up a quid of free credit I still had on my Electroverse car but the idea of it all just going on my household account, which is still £240 in credit with the light summer usage, even though only paying £125 pm in the last couple of month, it is like have a fuel card where you do not at the time but pay less and at some future date, great !

  

Another great charging experience, no waiting, charger far faster than my car will take and a subway 50m away.  Eventually I will get frustrated with the Zoe only charging at 45 kw when under 50% charge level and then only 30 kw or so between say 55% and 80% and then will want a faster charging car at sometime but happy for now.

 

Edited 6 October, 2023 by lol-lol

[wyx087]

Had a great and expensive rapid charging today. Typical splash & dash for me, because I just need a few % to make sure no squeaky bum time. Although cost wasn't much of an issue, just a few kWh's. But I would still want somewhere to have a whinge:

 This rapid charging is almost 10 times more expensive than home charging. 🤣 In fact, without Octopus' 8% discount, it is more than 10 times more expensive! 79p vs 7.5p.

 

Real world range and costs:  

(9 years old Nissan Leaf 24 kWh, 22 kWh usable when new, 79% battery health, car worth about £4500)

55.8 mi today (15-20c ideal for EV), mostly motorway (worst for range in this car), 100% to 20% with 15% top up (questionable necessity). <£1.50 for <20 kWh of home charging and £2.41 public charging.

 

8 bays, all 320 kW capable on CCS. Accepts contactless or roaming network such as Electroverse. Super easy to get going. A restaurant and many shops nearby. Perfect.

 

Best thing about these Kempower stations is the QR code that lets you track charging without relying on car app or charger operator app.

If you scan it, you can see charging info and press on the battery shows charging speed graph. Great for informing how car battery behave for those who are unfamiliar.

The cost shown with QR code isn't what I paid, Octopus Electroverse had 8% discount for their customers. Thankfully!

 

 

 Long version:

From home to my trusty garage quite far away: 21 miles, 60% left.  Washed, new all-season tyres, MOT passed with flying colours.

Garage to my parents house to drop off something: 19 miles, 35% left.

1 mile down the road to charge: 6min charging, back up to 50%. consumed 3.32 kWh at 73p/kWh, paid £2.41. 😭

Drive home: 17 miles, 20% left.

 

We typically recharge when it reaches 40%, rarely run down below 20%. Wife was nerves so I had to do a splash & dash.

3.32 kWh for 15% equates to 22 kWh battery. There's no way the battery can hold 22 kWh today. I suspect I'm also paying for the AC-DC charger loss.

 

 

Edited 7 October, 2023 by wyx087
re-arranged sections

[lol-lol]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Had a great and expensive rapid charging today. Typical splash & dash for me, because I just need a few % to make sure no squeaky bum time. Although cost wasn't much of an issue, just a few kWh's. But I would still want somewhere to have a whinge:  This rapid charging is almost 10 times more expensive than home charging. 🤣 In fact, without Octopus' 8% discount, it is more than 10 times more expensive! 79p vs 7.5p.

Real world range and costs:  

(9 years old Nissan Leaf 24 kWh, 22 kWh usable when new, 79% battery health, car worth about £4500)  55.8 mi today (15-20c ideal for EV), mostly motorway (worst for range in this car), 100% to 20% with 15% top up (questionable necessity). <£1.50 for <20 kWh of home charging and £2.41 public charging.

8 bays, all 320 kW capable on CCS. Accepts contactless or roaming network such as Electroverse. Super easy to get going. A restaurant and many shops nearby. Perfect.

Best thing about these Kempower stations is the QR code that lets you track charging without relying on car app or charger operator app.  If you scan it, you can see charging info and press on the battery shows charging speed graph. Great for informing how car battery behave for those who are unfamiliar.  The cost shown with QR code isn't what I paid, Octopus Electroverse had 8% discount for their customers. Thankfully!

 Long version:

From home to my trusty garage quite far away: 21 miles, 60% left.  Washed, new all-season tyres, MOT passed with flying colours.

Garage to my parents house to drop off something: 19 miles, 35% left.

1 mile down the road to charge: 6min charging, back up to 50%. consumed 3.32 kWh at 73p/kWh, paid £2.41. 😭

Drive home: 17 miles, 20% left.

We typically recharge when it reaches 40%, rarely run down below 20%. Wife was nerves so I had to do a splash & dash.

3.32 kWh for 15% equates to 22 kWh battery. There's no way the battery can hold 22 kWh today. I suspect I'm also paying for the AC-DC charger loss.

 

It is a shame that replacement, larger capacity battery packs foe LEAFs and Zoes are not offered as the cars are often in good nick and as the battery packs, at least in the Zoe, are the same size whether 22, 40 or 50 kWh and now should be much cheaper in real terms compared to what it would have been for the battery pack years ago the ide of dropping in a battery pack double or twice the size into the older LEAF or Zoe would be grand.  I suppose the electronics or some electrical components might not be happy with a double or triple sized but I gather a few have been done, certainly in the US, and got round the issues of the battery upsizing.  May not be worth it if one can pick up a second hand 52 kwh Zoe for not much over £10k, 3 year old and certainly in the Zoe the hp has doubled in that time and similar, and even more, for the LEAF I think from the hp numbers I have seen.

 

Alternative, like Bjorn Nyland did, is to get someone to locate any defective individual cells and bring the car back up to near original capacity as it is oft just the odd cell going down.

[wyx087]

The cell repair method would only be needed if pack have in-balance. Gradual degradation cannot be fixed because all cells would need replacing. 
 

There are many Leaf battery upgrades. It’s relatively straightforward: get a bigger pack, add an adaptor wiring harness with a translation chip, done.

https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Upgrade

 

But as you say, it’s not worth it when newer car can be bought for a few grand more. So other components are less likely to be near replacement. The front suspension on my Leaf feels loose, but none of the garage can see any problem with it. 

[Ootohere]

Much cheaper for me heading South & towards the West from home than South and towards the east

 

Heading North into Aberdeen / Aberdeenshire or to the Highland region is really to expensive and there is a pathetic charger network for Rapid charging.

(There are available more Commercial chargers which really are expensive for just Tap & Pay.)

 

.....................

I was up in Aberdeen last night and going back today.

Than goodness for PodPoint and 50 kW chargers at LIDL & Tesco.  65 pence a kWh or 62 pence i used at Tesco.

 

Aberdeen Councils few rapids about the city are 47 pence a kWh but pathetic getting to work if there are ones that are not blocked by people not caring and time penalties.

 

so 62 pence a kWh is £6.20 for 10 kWh,   i needed 20 kWh,  £12.40.   

 Was getting 3.7 miles a kWh so 74 miles.     Expensive.

 

I had done 100 miles on the battery charged for Free. 

I have charged at home at 20 pence a kWh so another 20 kWh for £4.00.

 

That gives me just over 100 miles before needing to charge.  it will probable be in about 75-80 miles though and with 20 kWh again

 

Works out OK with the free chargers and the lower tariff now at home. (Not an offpeak tariff, an all day and night one.)

Edited 13 October, 2023 by toot

[Ootohere]

A near empty and cold battery and ambient temp of 4°C and only getting 39kW on a 50 kW charger & paying 41 pence a kWh.       20 kWh will be £8 20 and getting 3 1 miles a kWh that is just 62 miles.     That is more expensive than a good economy ICE.   But then the next 20 kWh charge will be at home @ 20 pence a kWh or even some charge Free at a NHS charger. 

[domhnall]

On 14/10/2023 at 07:47, Rooted said:

A near empty and cold battery and ambient temp of 4°C and only getting 39kW on a 50 kW charger & paying 41 pence a kWh.       20 kWh will be £8 20 and getting 3 1 miles a kWh that is just 62 miles.     That is more expensive than a good economy ICE.   But then the next 20 kWh charge will be at home @ 20 pence a kWh or even some charge Free at a NHS charger. 

 

 

I pay 7.5p per kWh why are you paying so much?

[Ootohere]

@domhnallSimples, paying normal tariffs because no Smart meter, as many others might be.

But Smart meter booked because part of the term of the Lower Tariff i am on till March which is just under 21 pence a kWh.

I assume that as the last time a fitter came to fit the Smart meter they will not be able to.

No home charger just the 3 pin lead.

 

So during storm and just near to home driving & charging at the House.

14/10 2 kWh

14/10 12 kWh

15/10 4 kWh

15/10 2 kWh

15/10 23 kWh

21/10 12 kWh = 45 kWh @ 21 pence £9.45   getting 3 miles a kWh 135 miles.   

Edited 26 October, 2023 by Rooted

[lol-lol]

 

Needed to visit my office near Manchester Airport, from Worcester, straight there and back, around 200 mile round trip.

 

100 % charged battery in the Zoe and showing 200 miles range as the temperature was down to 9C and for every degree below 15 it seems to lose about 8 miles range.

 

Trundled off, keeping the eco setting on to see how much miles I could still have left when I got to Manchester, not painfully slow but keeping up with the trucks doing the 55 to 60 mph indicated.  Got to Manchester with 145 miles range left !

 

Wow.

 

Thought I was going to need to get a "zap and dash, maybe by The Hawthornes new Ionity chargers, using my Electroverse card, just 5 or 10 kwh ie 6 to 12 minute stop, get a Starbucks, and roll down the hills from the Hawthorns 511 feet up down to the Severn Valley floor at Worcester.  Not needed.

 

My £300 credit on Octopus still untouched. Whole journey on 9p per kWh home charging so about a fiver of lecky if that as still had 45 miles left when got back to Worcester.

 

Zero tailpipe emissions, low cost, all very good.  And no fires, explosions or the like too.  All this despite having a fuel card so I pay about 32p a litre for fuel if I used the Arkana hybrid.

 

[domhnall]

On 26/10/2023 at 00:30, Rooted said:

@domhnallSimples, paying normal tariffs because no Smart meter, as many others might be.

But Smart meter booked because part of the term of the Lower Tariff i am on till March which is just under 21 pence a kWh.

I assume that as the last time a fitter came to fit the Smart meter they will not be able to.

No home charger just the 3 pin lead.

 

So during storm and just near to home driving & charging at the House.

14/10 2 kWh

14/10 12 kWh

15/10 4 kWh

15/10 2 kWh

15/10 23 kWh

21/10 12 kWh = 45 kWh @ 21 pence £9.45   getting 3 miles a kWh 135 miles.   

 

 

ah right, we're 100% electric house, heating is ASHP 

 

paying 29p peak and 7.5p off peak. For 7 months of the year we are 100% solar or off peak, the rest we are largely off peak. Today for example because I plugged the car in this morning we had off peak through to 11am which means I was able to refill the house battery and we're still runnng off that at 8.30 pm

 

[lol-lol]

13 hours ago, domhnall said:

ah right, we're 100% electric house, heating is ASHP 

paying 29p peak and 7.5p off peak. For 7 months of the year we are 100% solar or off peak, the rest we are largely off peak. Today for example because I plugged the car in this morning we had off peak through to 11am which means I was able to refill the house battery and we're still running off that at 8.30 pm

 

 

Just sent one of my daughter the Octopus referral code, she can have the whole £100.

 

Still trying to get my Brother over to the Octopus Cosy Heat pump special tariff as he has a big house, new build, with heat pump system, a separate room for all the gubbins.

Think his lecky bill gets up to about £500 a month in the depths of winter, he lives high up in the hills between Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Essex and a cold Eastern can make it feel very cold.  

 

Neighbour just about to get a grand or two worth of solar on his garage to charge up his EV.  I am still not convinced on the payback timescale and will continue to look at battery storage over solar despite having a good southerly aspect. 

 

Some of the latest portable Solar generators look pretty impressive.  Deals are getting better and better as Lithium battery prices continue to fall, as does solar panel costs of course.

 

Might get an eco-worthy dual access solar tracker as they look cool and solar tracking get get 40% more power that fixed solar panels. Got 4 120W panels add another 2 or 4 and could get some useful power from dawn to dusk. Less than £400 now but may go even cheaper in Black Friday and Cyber Monday.

 

ESS

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Yesterday and today i did 48 miles each day, just short runs, heated seat on low, AC, rear screen demister, wipers, 18*oC heating and below 10*oC outside. 

 3 miles a kWh, Charging at home at 21 pence a kWh on 3 pin cable.

16  kWh or electric charged for each 48 miles.  @ 100% now.      *28.9 kWh usable battery is showing just 90 miles range.*

 

£3.30 each day, so 96 miles for £6.60.     That is fine.

I will see what i get next week and after as it gets colder.

I also have a few days of longer trips to do with free charging & 35 pence & 55 pence public charging to do. 

Edited 28 October, 2023 by Rooted

[wyx087]

V2H installed, just waiting for account to be commissioned.

 

2 EV's both charging, 5.5 kW + 7.4 kW + house:

 

Price is 7.5p/kWh because I have extra slot via Intelligent Octopus.

 

 

Edited 30 October, 2023 by wyx087

[wyx087]

Finally, a good article covering all charging costs. Including off-peak home charging and Tesla charging costs. Cheapest ways to get around.

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/advice-electric-cars/how-much-does-it-cost-charge-electric-car

[Luckypants]

For those new to EVs, that is a useful article. I thought it was not clear or even misleading in the way referred to Tesla having their own chargers and should have made it clear that Tesla cars can charge on other networks. Apart from that, helpful.

[lol-lol]

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Finally, a good article covering all charging costs. Including off-peak home charging and Tesla charging costs. Cheapest ways to get around.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/advice-electric-cars/how-much-does-it-cost-charge-electric-car

 

If one small criticism I would say that if somewhat under-emphasises the fairly obvious step that EV owners get on to an EV tariff like Octopus GO or Intelligent to tap in to 8/9 p per kWh.  All wondering exactly how much the night rate will go up in January 2024 ie just over 5 weeks time.

 

Looking at Allpower R2500 or even the R4000 to use even less day time rate power and store cheap night time power to use during the daytime.  These unit can use granny chargers to put electricity in to an EV using granny chargers ie 2.4 kWh and are now being sold at way less than £1 per wh and with lithium phospate batteries show should last 10 years even to 80% charging capacity. Getting cheaper all the time.     

[Ootohere]

My MINI Electric has a battery size of 32.6 kWh,  usable capacity 28.9 kWh.

100% charged pretty much shows 100 mile range, like this morning it was 101 miles at 0*oC, and AC on and Heating at 20*oC just 85 miles.

It does more than 100 miles and at worse so far maybe just 90 miles but that is Motorway speeds.

 

Anyway i have noticed that charging from 50% / 50 miles range to 100% is taking about 18kWh on the 3 pin charger at home and a max 10 amp setting. 

**(£3.85)

15% - 100% has needed 28 kWh. 

 

On a Rapid / 50 kW charger it is a few kWh less, sometimes 40% to 100% is 18 kWh. Ambient temps are warmer though and i arrive with a hot battery.

Charging on the 3 pin lead at home the car is not arriving from been driven. 

(Sitting charging many hours, 12-15 sometimes.)

 

So almost empty to 100% / 100 -110 miles charging at home @ 21 pence a kWh might well need 30 kWh. so £6.30   **(But 2 x £3.85 = £7.70) 

 

I will see what things are like in the next couple of days with temps around 0*oC. 

Edited 24 November, 2023 by Rooted