Today I got round to fitting an "old" (believe it was bought in 2016) DTUK pedal box I was using on my MK7 for 1.5 years before moving to the Superb as it was evident from my very first miles with the car that the throttle response was typical VAG crap. The actual throttle connector is a 10sec process but installation took around 2 min, mostly due to trying to remove and then put back the driver's cubby where the wired controller can conveniently be tucked in, pretty easy though. No error messages or weird behaviour so it seems it is compatible with the newer cars too.

TL DR version: "that sh!t never gets old  "  (and the giggles are real)

Long version: Took it for a drive where I left it OFF for the first 2 miles to be sure I have a fresh and accurate reference of the stock behaviour. Turned it ON and started laughing like a schoolgirl... It never seizes to surprise me how something like the throttle mapping, not extra power or more noise, can make a car feel so different depending on how it's set. It's all about the real-world, daily performance. Not many are driving around at a constant @4000 rpm so as to be ready to floor it when the time is right, are they? If they did, they would certainly have no need for a pedal box neither would they be able to notice any difference. But they don't. You're mostly driving sensibly, between 1800-3500 rpm. Which is why when (you're not on the track) and the road opens up or if you need to exploit a gap in the traffic and try to use more power than usual you're ending up with a lazy response, un-necessary high revving and a delayed delivery. Yes, even with the 272 or the 360 or the 500bhp Superb. That's because VAG thinks below 3000-3500 you can't/should't possibly want the full torque you've paid for and the car has to be "friendly".

Pedal box deletes this "probation" part of the pedal travel. Push your foot decisively (1/3 throttle) and it pushes you forward immediately and with the ferocity that you'd expect from a car of that power, so amusing. In fact, comparing how it felt on a 360bhp FWD and and how it feels on a 272,  heavier but AWD Superb the box comes into its own with all-wheel drive. On a powerful FWD, instant throttle at low speeds used to overwhelm the front wheels more often than not if not on a dry road. But now, you just hit n go, no matter the speed or conditions, it's like you unlock a different Sport +++ mode where you finally get access to the car's potential across the entire rev range and you also appreciate much more the ever-present traction you have. And no, it's nothing like burying your foot more on stock response (as I used to believe). You need to try it in order to fully grasp it. Of-course, above 3500rpm there is no difference at all as the car anyway offers all power available. But that's where the JB4 will take over 

All in all, every AWD VAG car will enjoy a huge transformation on probably the most important area: The response and performance during lower rpm, daily driving, it's easily a 3x more enjoyable experience now.

 

Edited 27 February, 20197 yr by newbie69

I had a Racechip XLR for my 150 TDI.  I must get round to buying one for the 280.  

 

Like you said, it's amazing how much the driving experience is positively changed with no extra bhp or performance tweaks.  I honestly believe you could fool someone into thinking the car had been remapped with just fitting a pedal box alone.  

17 minutes ago, penguin17 said:

I had a Racechip XLR for my 150 TDI.  I must get round to buying one for the 280.  

 

Like you said, it's amazing how much the driving experience is positively changed with no extra bhp or performance tweaks.  I honestly believe you could fool someone into thinking the car had been remapped with just fitting a pedal box alone.  

Absolutely. It would only take a couple of pulls from low speeds and rpm and the now instant kick-back would do it. It's so effective (and amusing) due to the immediate change from a calm state to full blast, bit like flicking a switch. You will now find yourself playing with the throttle much more often just to get a quick dose. Probably not favouring economy but it's your choice really, and I would happily do the trade-off.

I guess you could think of it as the "remap of the sensible" you know? No extra power, no warranty voided, removable within 2 min, but a whole lot more easily accessible fun. A remap at these power levels needs proper place and conditions to be fully appreciated anyway and because of that on a daily commute it goes mostly un-noticed. This? It's a 2-3 second shot of adrenaline while still driving sensibly.

Also, I will stress again how much more sense it makes on a AWD car. On my GTI I needed to exercise caution or it went to waste. Here you get the full blast, immediately, every single time, in a "no questions asked" fashion  

Edited 27 February, 20197 yr by newbie69

I do realise that a pedal box is different to a tuning box or remap but I was considering a pedal box for my 190 as a compromise as it less likely to void warranty and increase insurance. The above is the most practical review of the day to day impact of a pedal box I have read and helps identify where the compromises actually are. Its informative to hear that the box does not really affect the top end of the rev range as to me that is where remap really benefits the diesel by eliminating that dead spot between 4000 rpm ish and the red line. The better response with using the pedal box would be welcome though and the information provided helps to temper expectations, thanks for sharing!

@newbie69 question for you: 

 

So you mentioned that at 1/3 throttle, the car is very much livelier now. In stock form , does 2/3 throttle compensate and do the same? 

 

It is interesting to know your experience but I don't think I will be getting a pedalbox or similar. Just want to know if I calibrate my brain and deploy my 'footbox' differently, will I get the same effect. Mentally, doing 1/3 vs 2/3 and feeling the de punch feels better of course. Gives the feeling of big power reserves. 

 

 

1 hour ago, KeteCantek said:

@newbie69 question for you: 

 

So you mentioned that at 1/3 throttle, the car is very much livelier now. In stock form , does 2/3 throttle compensate and do the same? 

 

It is interesting to know your experience but I don't think I will be getting a pedalbox or similar. Just want to know if I calibrate my brain and deploy my 'footbox' differently, will I get the same effect. Mentally, doing 1/3 vs 2/3 and feeling the de punch feels better of course. Gives the feeling of big power reserves. 

 

 

That's the thing exactly. For years, when I heard pedal box I thought this sounds like the stupidest thing people waste their money on, just push the pedal more surely? But unfortunately you can't get the same result by just re-calibrating your foot as you say mainly and I quickly realized why when I first tried it. As stock, the throttle opening seems to be capped to a specific percentage below a certain number of rpm. It's not so much about how deep you depress but rather where in the rev range you do it. I'd say this is as low as 50% max throttle below roughly 3000-3500 rpm however you depress the throttle, unless you reach almost kick-down point.

But even if you start flooring it all the time, it will still be a very different thing compared to the pedal box simply because 100% throttle @2000rpm is not at all the same as 100% throttle @ 3300 rpm - the power and torque have risen considerably. As a result on the latter case, you've wasted a few useful tenths to reach the higher rpm that allows you full access to your own power, and even worse, you've most probably reached a power state higher than what you actually needed to exploit that gap in traffic, or enter a round-about safer. For all these half-throttle applications, it's almost impossible to avoid this as you have to go from "little" to "all" and more often than not rev much higher than you'd like. You just can't get all the juice below a certain point which unfortunately has been set too high considering how torque-y modern engines are and where we spent 95% of our driving.

Think also of this: A pedal box doesn't make more power, neither it makes the turbo spool faster, it's a really basic device that is not capable of any of those. It simply requests a higher throttle percentage, above the threshold set by VAG, at the lower part of the rev range, but a percentage that your car can already offer as it wouldn't be able to change any of the other characteristics.

This is as best as I could explain it but not sure if it helped. 1000 words of me will probably still not be as good as 1 minute test-drive with a unit on. I might sound like  a salesman at this point, but especially with an AWD, you're leaving a lot of the daily fun on the table without it.

Edited 28 February, 20197 yr by newbie69

I totally get what you are trying to say.  Very intriguing. Still more interested in your jb4 review

 

 

I don't think your theory can be correct. The accelerator pedal sensor just measures the pedal position and can't limit its output depending on engine revs.  Any such limiting must be occurring in the engine management and will still happen with a pedal box manipulating the sensor output vs. the physical movement of the pedal.

I am inclined to think @D402 is correct but...

 

There is still a phycological effect at play here. Let's say 25%p(pedal box) gives X% throttle signal. 75%b (boggo throttle) also gives X% throttle signal. 

 

To initiate 75%b, the brain is already thinking (it knows from muscle memory) that well I'm giving it some well. The corresponding acceleration is nice but expected. 

 

Now, if you just do 25%p, the brain think I'm just using a tiny bit of throttle here, but when the corresponding acceleration is of X% value, the brain thinks holysheet! 

Plus it takes a bit less time to press 25% than 75%. 

I suspect the pedal box provides a throttle curve, changing depending on which mode is selected,  but with each mode being steeper at the beginning and flattening off towards the end of travel compared to stock, which is the opposite, a shallow curve ramping up towards WOT, I'll certainly be adding one to my 4x4 petrol sportline plus when it arrives

2 hours ago, D402 said:

I don't think your theory can be correct. The accelerator pedal sensor just measures the pedal position and can't limit its output depending on engine revs.  Any such limiting must be occurring in the engine management and will still happen with a pedal box manipulating the sensor output vs. the physical movement of the pedal.

Of-course a pedal box itself cannot allow more or less throttle, it just intercepts a voltage signal from the throttle sensor and sends it to the ECU that converts that info to throttle opening depending on its own map. The reason I bring RPM into play is because at higher rpm (4k+), even stock throttle response becomes much more instant and there is no difference whether you have a pedal box on or not. In lower rpm though the response is deliberately delayed, with the exception of hitting almost kick-down, at which point the RPM parameter is disregarded.

Then why flooring it does not provide the exact same instant effect you will ask. Not 100% sure on this. For starters to get the throttle to that point physically it takes a small but conceivable time. Then, being a drive-by-wire, I am not sure which point is exactly the "go crazy" point. Hitting the end of the pedal travel? Or maybe keeping it there for a couple of instants before it gets the memo? Could be many things. What I can testify with certainty is that the pedal box sends instantly this "all out" signal and the result takes place in a blink of an eye.

Edited 28 February, 20197 yr by newbie69

2 hours ago, KeteCantek said:

I am inclined to think @D402 is correct but...

 

There is still a phycological effect at play here. Let's say 25%p(pedal box) gives X% throttle signal. 75%b (boggo throttle) also gives X% throttle signal. 

 

To initiate 75%b, the brain is already thinking (it knows from muscle memory) that well I'm giving it some well. The corresponding acceleration is nice but expected. 

 

Now, if you just do 25%p, the brain think I'm just using a tiny bit of throttle here, but when the corresponding acceleration is of X% value, the brain thinks holysheet! 

Plus it takes a bit less time to press 25% than 75%. 

That, and also to get 75% stock you need to try more and wait more so trust me when I say it's very different. I am not really defensive of my mod choices, I have publicly criticized a few stuff I chose to do in past cars and have advised people to not waste their money on them like I did, but this, I really can't recommend enough.

2 hours ago, SteHaworth said:

I suspect the pedal box provides a throttle curve, changing depending on which mode is selected,  but with each mode being steeper at the beginning and flattening off towards the end of travel compared to stock, which is the opposite, a shallow curve ramping up towards WOT, I'll certainly be adding one to my 4x4 petrol sportline plus when it arrives

That's more or less what a graph from DTUK that I had seen looked like although it seemed like an approximation of the effect rather than actual measured values. Didn't know BMS made a pedal box for VAG too. Maybe give that a try so we have a comparison? Doubt there will be much between them though.

Thanks for the write-up 

@Newbie20 I'm not critical of your decision to fit a pedal box, the throttle response is poor. The Superb would feel much better if it was responsive enough to allow you to balance the chassis and throttle in corners and I don't doubt that a pedal box achieves this.

I get the impression that the engine response is related to the rate at which the pedal is applied; the quicker you increase the pedal position, the quicker the engine responds. Two problems with this; it's hard to press the pedal both quickly and accurately to the desired position, and the engine response to small pedal adjustments is slow. Perhaps it explains the feeling of limited power at low revs.

@newbie69 When do you plan to install the JB4 unit? I'm eager to learn about how does the car feel with both pedal and power boxes

Edited 1 March, 20197 yr by didoya

12 hours ago, newbie69 said:

That, and also to get 75% stock you need to try more and wait more so trust me when I say it's very different. I am not really defensive of my mod choices, I have publicly criticized a few stuff I chose to do in past cars and have advised people to not waste their money on them like I did, but this, I really can't recommend enough.

I totally trust your experience as you described and that is actually in line with my thought on what a pedalbox can do. 

3 hours ago, D402 said:

@Newbie20 I'm not critical of your decision to fit a pedal box, the throttle response is poor. The Superb would feel much better if it was responsive enough to allow you to balance the chassis and throttle in corners and I don't doubt that a pedal box achieves this.

I get the impression that the engine response is related to the rate at which the pedal is applied; the quicker you increase the pedal position, the quicker the engine responds. Two problems with this; it's hard to press the pedal both quickly and accurately to the desired position, and the engine response to small pedal adjustments is slow. Perhaps it explains the feeling of limited power at low revs.

A lot has to do with the gearbox programming too. A delay in shifting down will add to the delay in getting the required throttle signal. 

 

Helps that mine has paddle shifters so I can manually down change and at the same time I smash the throttle. 

4 hours ago, D402 said:

@Newbie20 I'm not critical of your decision to fit a pedal box, the throttle response is poor. The Superb would feel much better if it was responsive enough to allow you to balance the chassis and throttle in corners and I don't doubt that a pedal box achieves this.

I get the impression that the engine response is related to the rate at which the pedal is applied; the quicker you increase the pedal position, the quicker the engine responds. Two problems with this; it's hard to press the pedal both quickly and accurately to the desired position, and the engine response to small pedal adjustments is slow. Perhaps it explains the feeling of limited power at low revs.

No I never interpreted your message as a criticism on the pedal box purchase itself, but rather on part of my explanation of how I think it achieves it. Basically I am trying a bit of "reverse engineering" here. I have my findings confirmed in various scenarios and in different cars, I have one part of the technical info (where the pedal box connects and what it alters) so I am trying to complete the missing bit of how the ECU treats all that and explain how in the end, the pedal box offers something that a heavier foot or re-programming of how you drive can not offer.

What you say about the rate of pedal depression makes a lot of sense. This could well be a factor that delays stock response no matter how fast you buried your foot, whereas with the box, you "jump straight to the main dish" If I can say so.

2 hours ago, didoya said:

@newbie69 When do you plan to install the JB4 unit? I'm eager to learn about how does the car feel with both pedal and power boxes

If it's anything like the same unit on the same engine, on the GTI - and I can't think of a reason not to - it will be "business as usual". The extra power could well go un-noticed in daily driving below 3500rpm but when you get serious the difference shall be rather noticeable.

One thing which I'm curious about (same as with the pedal box) is of the effect of the extra power on the AWD car at low speeds. This was an area that was previously mostly inaccessible due to wheel-spin, you got full access to your extra power only after 60-80km/h, we'll see how it will be now.

As I said I was planning to hit the 1000km mark but with all you impatient guys over here it's become a stronger temptation 

Edited 1 March, 20197 yr by newbie69

15 hours ago, SteHaworth said:

I suspect the pedal box provides a throttle curve, changing depending on which mode is selected,  but with each mode being steeper at the beginning and flattening off towards the end of travel compared to stock, which is the opposite, a shallow curve ramping up towards WOT, I'll certainly be adding one to my 4x4 petrol sportline plus when it arrives

That's exactly what all pedal boxes do. There's no way that they can change the mapping between torque/power and rpm (e.g. using more torque at lower rpm instead of changing down a gear) because this is entirely down to the engine management and DSG control systems which are not touched. All they do is change the relationship between how far you push the pedal and how much power/torque/rpm the engine/gearbox delivers; if pushing the pedal down from 0% to 50% travel used to give a certain amount of oomph, pushing it from 0% to 25% with the pedal box does exactly the same. The speed of response doesn't change either, but it can feel faster because a given pedal movement gives a bigger power increase. It's all subjective, but then so is driving.

 

Having said that, if it makes the car feel more responsive then that's absolutely fine :-)