Keep us updated

On ‎17‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 16:05, cjb said:

I've just done the basic settings for aj0007, and I'd make the following observations:

 

1) No stored fault codes for the DSG box.

2) The unpleasant noises he's noticed are also evident during the group 0061 basic settings. (http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/6-Speed_Direct_Shift_Gearbox_(DSG/02E), 

3) I've done basic settings on the Leon I had a few years sgo, and as anyone that's done it will know, a few clunks and clicks at things engage is normal, but this was more of a grinding.

4) To me the sounds are very similar to the noise you'd get when a worn-out manual clutch starts to slip- a metal-on-metal grinding.

5) The other problems feel to me like the relevant clutch is struggling to engage and then suddenly does so- a bit of a slip, then a clunk as it engages.

6) It seems to affect both clutch/gear chains since the oil change.

7) The car still drives the same and the noises are the same afterwards.

 

So based on this I'd be unsure of the problem. It kind of feels like a clutch issue, but it doesn't slip once the clutch actually engages.

 

I've suggested he gives Midland VW a call. I don't know how well they know DSG internals, but they're trustworthy and honest in my experience.

 

Anyone who has witnessed the basic settings and defined test drive procedure will perhaps understand why the main stealers frequently fail to carry this out.  It is very time consuming, and the test drive requires two technicians.  Time is money to the stealers!

 

Back to the car in question.  From the observations you have made, it is possible that there is some metal debris contained within the clutch module.  My guess would be a damaged clutch basket (scores or gouges in the cutouts) - which might equate to difficulties in engaging clutch.  I would also hazard a guess that one or more teeth have broken off, and are floating loose within the clutch - possibly the cause of metal-on-metal grinding.

 

Luckily, the clutch pack can be replaced without the need to open up the actual gearbox.  My rough guess would be approx. £600 parts and labour to replace.  Other problematic areas on the DQ250 are the mechatronics module, though I am personally not at all convinced the early high numbers of mechatronics replacements were actually needed - driver ignorance seemed to be the cause, and simple driver education would have been a much cheaper fix!  On final problem which can afflict the DQ250 is the failure of the bearings supporting the two main shafts - though these become evident from a typical bearing 'whine'.

 

For those who are unaware, the DQ250 clutch is the same fundamental design as motorbike clutches.  Instead of a single beefy double-sided friction plate clamped by an equally beefy pressure plate onto a f.ing heavy iron/steel flywheel, with the friction plate transmitting engine torque via precision splines to the steel gearbox first-motion shaft - DQ250 clutches are fundamentally more fragile.  Termed a 'wet multi-plate clutch', each of the clutches consist of (if I recall correctly) three flimsy double-sided friction plates and four plain 'drive' plates all housed within a relatively soft aluminium-alloy clutch 'basket'.  Each of the clutch plates (plain and friction) have a number of square-shaped teeth (either externally or internally), which have to slide within cut-outs of the alloy clutch basket or the alloy pressure actuator (akin to the pressure plate assembly in the single-plate dry clutch).  If DQ250 clutches (and motorbike clutches) are regularly abused (either on purposely or innocently), a multitude of damages can occur - despite the clutch still being able to function reasonably normally.

 

The DQ250 is fundamentally a simple and robust beast, and will perform flawlessly for many hundreds of thousands of miles - IF taken care of, and with driver education.

Drivers sometimes know how to drive, and owners know something can be wrong.

 

Dealership employee education required at the service desk, service manager and sales staff and even the workshop.

Do not tell owners they all do that, never heard or that before, or driver error, if it is just a rare DQ250 fault, or common DQ200 fault, 

or current 1.5 TSI 'characteristic'.

 

Then drivers / owners might be more trusting in Main Dealerships / Skoda Customer Services.

Having been in the car with aj0007, there's no driver error here, and I'm saying that as an owner of 2 cars with the DQ250 and over 150k miles behind the wheel of those cars. He's owned the car for a long time and drives it sensibly. I'd say Black_Thunder's diagnosis make a lot of sense here: my experience of the box is that it is, by now, fairly well proven and generally quite durable, and it does feel like a clutch issue.

An update. I have been to midland vw and to another place in Birmingham called volks works. They have both advised that the issue could simply be that the oil level could be low resulting in low pressure. Volks works have said that I could add 250-300ml through the filter housing to see if it makes a difference and have provided some they had left over. If it does then to get a full oil change to get the level right. I hope this is the case but would be really annoyed as this would mean central vw had not done the job properly in the first place.

 

If this fails they have both said further investigation would be required. 

 

I have since continued to drive the vehicle and the issue has not gotten worse, in fact it has improved considerably with no judder in 3rd and 5th. Not got to 6th since having issue. And has reduced substantially in all other gears. Very odd.

I will attempt the oil top up and if this fails then will have the gearbox refurbed during my Easter holidays.

Have done an oil top up as I type. It appears to me the filter was not changed. I say this because to gain access to the filter had to remove air box, battery and battery tray. On doing so the bolts and screws seemed untouched. Anyway I continued. On taking out the filter it doesn’t appear newish at all. Attached are some picks of the filter, old oil and new oil. Any thoughts or am I being paranoid.

Had to attach additional pics separately as 10mb is largest file uploads.

I’m guessing they may have changed the oil but not filter. Vehicle has done approx 500 miles since the oil and filter change was supposedly meant to have been done

Will drive it around and see if there’s any improvement. Will request a gearbox replacement from volksworks who will arrange for a refurbed box and install if this fails. I’m just really pee’d off that central vw in erdington did not do a filter change which they charged  me for.

Cjb, I may need to try the adaptation settings again if that’s alright having tipped up the oil.

That "old" oil doesn't look too bad, I did my own dsg oil change last year and the fluid was a lot worse than that.

 

From what I understand there's usually quite a lot of the old stuff left lurking in the internals of the gearbox after draining so I'd expect it to be a bit darker than the brand new.

 

 

6 hours ago, aj0007 said:

Cjb, I may need to try the adaptation settings again if that’s alright having tipped up the oil.

 

Yeah, no worries.

19 hours ago, aj0007 said:

I’m guessing they may have changed the oil but not filter. Vehicle has done approx 500 miles since the oil and filter change was supposedly meant to have been done

 

The photos of the oil certainly suggest it has been changed. That filter though, I don't recall mine looking like that when I changed at 38,000miles.  It looks  pretty gunked up. maybe that is causing a hydraulic pressure issue. Are you changing the filter?  I would also have some words with the garage with photos like that!

Edited 20 April, 20197 yr by TheClient

Ps, to properly set the level without measuring, you should set the car up on level stands, add some oil, enough to make it overfull, take out the main plug and leave the snorkel in. Some oil will run out.  Reinsert plug. Run the car until the specified transmission temp and then remove main plug and let extra oil drain out (due to expansion from temp).  Then properly torque the drain plug with a new sealing ring.  Just adding a quantity of oil, if already full, could overfill...

Edited 20 April, 20197 yr by TheClient

I have ordered a filter so will have to disassemble again to change. I have only added 150ml of oil. However will see how it goes with the filter change after I rack up a few hundred miles. I doubt it’ll make any difference as damage is probably already done, but never know.

 

i will certainly be leaving a review for central vw and Audi. I will also make a complaint but doubt they’ll do very much.

If filter does make any noticeable difference then I’d have it done again but this time I will only allow any garage to do it so long as I can watch.

I'd ask the servicing garage to refund their charge for the dsg service. Or maybe do it all again, properly this time at no charge.  Perhaps they were having a bad day, Best to give them a chance to right the wrong. Whether you would trust them to work on deeper levels of repair work is another question.

 

I've often wondered though how many garages do a wet clutch dsg oil service and do not change the filter, as you mention, it is a bit of work and time to get to it.  Far, far quicker job for them to drain the oil and refill through the drain plug only.  But with a car with a few dsg changes supposedly done, how old could the filter be!

 

I'm not sure this is you problem with the metallic noises and other testing done but you have to try the cheap options first.  Otherwise, it seems you will need to have the box removed and inspected as suggested by others including @Black_Thunder, suspect clutch packs for detailed inspection as a guess.

Have bought another car. Will use this Octavia to experiment with. I will change the filter first see how that goes. I then plan on taking out the Mechatronic and checking the resistance of the solenoids and will clean the filter beneath the n215 and n216 solenoids. Will be willing to only fork out to change 2 solenoids if required as now it’s my experimental car. If required I will take out and have a go at dismantling the clutch pack.

Having now studied the self study on dsg, read up on the various issues and spoken to maktrans in Warsaw. I am inclined to believe that the filter is somewhat blocked and is restricting oil flow to the n215 and n216 clutch solenoids. I have taken the old filter apart and noticed there exist no valve like engine oil filters to allow oil flow on restricted filter medium. My gut feeling is that given the dsg oil pump is driven by the flywheel which in turn is driven by the crank there is a restriction in oil pressure to engage the clutch and this perhaps may be the cause of my issue. I will keep you all updated as to the progress as it may help someone somewhere down the line.

On 23/04/2019 at 11:19, aj0007 said:

Having now studied the self study on dsg, read up on the various issues and spoken to maktrans in Warsaw. I am inclined to believe that the filter is somewhat blocked and is restricting oil flow to the n215 and n216 clutch solenoids. I have taken the old filter apart and noticed there exist no valve like engine oil filters to allow oil flow on restricted filter medium. My gut feeling is that given the dsg oil pump is driven by the flywheel which in turn is driven by the crank there is a restriction in oil pressure to engage the clutch and this perhaps may be the cause of my issue. I will keep you all updated as to the progress as it may help someone somewhere down the line.

 

Any update on this aj0007?

@aj0007

 

what's the latest?