New Superb's slower than older models?

[Speedman]

Hi,

 

Whilst bored I was looking at the specs of the new Superb's and noticed that they have slowed down. I compared a TDi 190 DSG SEL Exec Est from my 2016 brochure to the current brochure online and found:-

 

Top speed was 146 mph, now 139 mph

0-62 mph was 7.7s, now 8.4s

 

Only mechanical change I am aware of for the 190 DSG from 2016 to now that might affect things is the change from 6 speed to 7 speed DSG.  Kerb weight has only gone up by 20kg - certainly not enough to explain the above differences.

 

Wonder what has made the differences - although there is the constant desire to improve emissions, engine power is stated as the same.

 

[silver1011]

WLTP I'd imagine. The whole process has been an absolute nightmare for VAG, in particular Skoda...

 

http://wltpfacts.eu/what-is-wltp-how-will-it-work/

[Speedman]

I wondered about this but as far as I understand it WLTP is a different/more accurate way of measuring MPG rather than specifically affecting a cars performance. Can't see how it would affect top speed etc particularly as engine power has not been reduced.

 

[Ootohere]

Skoda might well be honest or as honest as VW Group allow.

Max figures are the Minimum you should expect anyway seeing as the UK will always be the best of conditions, weather, above sea level and fuel.

 

Look at Audi and VW and compare, 

what did they have in 2016 in brochures for a car the same weight or even heavier?

What did they change after WLTP.  Or after they were found out late 2015 early 2016 with Implausible / irregular C02 g/km along with SEAT.

Skoda were not guilty of the same 'fuddle not fiddle'  all just a mistake...

[silver1011]

You're right, it is a revised way of measuring a vehicles emissions, but it also involves more strict limits for those emissions, meaning manufacturers have had to make changes in order to pass the more stringent test limits.

 

Quite a few manufacturers complained at the notice given and therefore the time available to incorporate the changes before the legislation was brought in.

 

VAG were hit hard as their vehicles are highly customisable. Their options lists are long, so there are literally thousand of configurations to test and approve. This is why lead times have been much longer of late.

 

As a result then I'm guessing that they've had to implement some quick fixes in order to pass, one of which may well have involved reducing the output and/or performance of their engines.

 

Their petrol engines have also seen some hardware changes too, the inclusion of GPF's (Gasloine Particulate Filters) for example, which would have ordinarily affected performance, so the engines have been altered in an effort to try and mitigate some of the losses (1.4 TSI > 1.5 TSI, 2.0 TSI 180PS > 2.0 TSI 190PS).

 

Edited 10 March, 2019 by silver1011

[shyVRS245]

20 minutes ago, Speedman said:

Hi,

 

Whilst bored I was looking at the specs of the new Superb's and noticed that they have slowed down. I compared a TDi 190 DSG SEL Exec Est from my 2016 brochure to the current brochure online and found:-

 

Top speed was 146 mph, now 139 mph

0-62 mph was 7.7s, now 8.4s

 

Only mechanical change I am aware of for the 190 DSG from 2016 to now that might affect things is the change from 6 speed to 7 speed DSG.  Kerb weight has only gone up by 20kg - certainly not enough to explain the above differences.

 

Wonder what has made the differences - although there is the constant desire to improve emissions, engine power is stated as the same.

 

If maximum power is achieved at lower rpm this would reduce the top speed as well as higher gearing in 7th gear as opposed to the old 6th gear. Both would see the lower maximum speed in order to lower emissions and improve fuel economy under tougher testing conditions.

[Speedman]

It seemed to me that there are 2 options - either the original figures are wrong or the vehicles/engines have changed perhaps in relation to WLTP but they are still quoting the same power output so this hasn't been reduced as a result of WLTP and the car's weight has only gone up by 20kg - not enough to reduce performance figures by this much. My guess is that the original figures weren't correct.

 

I very much doubt I would get a definitive answer to this even if I raised it with Skoda UK, just posted it as it interested me once I noticed it.

 

[Speedman]

4 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

If maximum power is achieved at lower rpm this would reduce the top speed as well as higher gearing in 7th gear as opposed to the old 6th gear. Both would see the lower maximum speed in order to lower emissions and improve fuel economy under tougher testing conditions.

The RPM that max torque and bhp are achieved at are the same for 2106 and 2019 models. I did wonder if the 7th gear affects the top speed, but by this much?

Edited 10 March, 2019 by Speedman

[shyVRS245]

1 minute ago, Speedman said:

The RPM that max torque and bhp are achieved at are the same for 2106 and 2019 models.

Just an idea from my experience with an Octavia 2.0Tdi back in 2014. With 147bhp at 3,500rpm it's top speed was 135mph. However after a remap with 186bhp at 4,000rpm top speed increased to 150mph. In 6th gear (manual gearbox) it was pulling 37.5mph per 1,000rpm.

[Mph25]

I’ve just moved from a 6 speed 170 to a 7 speed 150 and to be honest it feels brisker in normal driving - possibly because the 7 speed DSG has closer ratios than the 6 speed? 

 

Anyway - whilst I never drive it to the maximum it seems fine to me.

[Speedman]

9 minutes ago, Mph25 said:

I’ve just moved from a 6 speed 170 to a 7 speed 150 and to be honest it feels brisker in normal driving - possibly because the 7 speed DSG has closer ratios than the 6 speed? 

 

Anyway - whilst I never drive it to the maximum it seems fine to me.

Thanks but if you follow that logic wouldn't you expect the 7 speed 190 to be quicker to 62mph rather than slower?

[shyVRS245]

2 minutes ago, Speedman said:

Thanks but if you follow that logic wouldn't you expect the 7 speed 190 to be quicker to 62mph rather than slower?

Perhaps because of the closer (shorter gearing) ratio's the new 7 speed box may have to change into 3rd at say 55mph whereas the old 6 speed box could hit 63mph in 2nd. The extra time to change gear could be the difference. Noticed on a VW UP Gti video that despite it having a 6 speed box it has to go from 2nd to 3rd at 50mph more like a diesel. My Octavia can hit 71mph in 2nd and 105mph in 3rd for comparison.

[Speedman]

perhaps and I wondered this but given the speed that the DSG changes gear it should account for 7/10ths slower plus, if this is the case, what is the advantage of the 7 speed over the 6 speed?

 

[KeteCantek]

1 minute ago, Speedman said:

perhaps and I wondered this but given the speed that the DSG changes gear it should account for 7/10ths slower plus, if this is the case, what is the advantage of the 7 speed over the 6 speed?

 

Better testing fuel economy. Real life not so sure unless you drive like it's being tested lol. 

[shyVRS245]

1 minute ago, Speedman said:

perhaps and I wondered this but given the speed that the DSG changes gear it should account for 7/10ths slower plus, if this is the case, what is the advantage of the 7 speed over the 6 speed?

 

Lower revs at 70mph perhaps giving better cruising economy.

[xman]

4 hours ago, Speedman said:

Hi,

 

Whilst bored I was looking at the specs of the new Superb's and noticed that they have slowed down. 

 

Proof that things were indeed better in the good old days....

[shyVRS245]

1 minute ago, xman said:

 

Proof that things were indeed better in the good old days....

Too many pesky filters on these new fancy motor vehicles. Or worse no engine at all (Nissan Leaf).

[MaddicIrl]

7 hours ago, Speedman said:

Hi,

 

Whilst bored I was looking at the specs of the new Superb's and noticed that they have slowed down. I compared a TDi 190 DSG SEL Exec Est from my 2016 brochure to the current brochure online and found:-

 

Top speed was 146 mph, now 139 mph

0-62 mph was 7.7s, now 8.4s

 

Only mechanical change I am aware of for the 190 DSG from 2016 to now that might affect things is the change from 6 speed to 7 speed DSG.  Kerb weight has only gone up by 20kg - certainly not enough to explain the above differences.

 

Wonder what has made the differences - although there is the constant desire to improve emissions, engine power is stated as the same.

 

That is a big discrepancy in the 0-62mph, funny enough the 2.0 tsi 272ps is quicker 0-62mph (5.5 secs) than the 280ps (5.8 secs), which confuses the issue further if its to be blamed on WLTP.

[Speedman]

26 minutes ago, MaddicIrl said:

That is a big discrepancy in the 0-62mph, funny enough the 2.0 tsi 272ps is quicker 0-62mph (5.5 secs) than the 280ps (5.8 secs), which confuses the issue further if its to be blamed on WLTP.

Yes, I had noticed that but didn't add it to my original post as I didn't want to load to with too much information. Whilst I gave the figures for the 190 DSG (which is what I have) the 150 TDi also has a lower top speed and slower 0-62 mph time than before.

 

[penguin17]

I think the differences between 280 and 272 is the gearing. The 7spd, on paper, is slicker. 

 

 

[BriskodaJeff]

Just as a matter of interest, has anyone done a timed run to see how their cars stand up against book times? I know I haven't. 

[Mph25]

42 minutes ago, BriskodaJeff said:

Just as a matter of interest, has anyone done a timed run to see how their cars stand up against book times? I know I haven't. 

 

That would be interesting- though anyone mad enough to use their own car for it... 

[penguin17]

1 hour ago, BriskodaJeff said:

Just as a matter of interest, has anyone done a timed run to see how their cars stand up against book times? I know I haven't. 

If you look on YouTube there's a lot of 0-62 times done in the 280 and they range from 5.1-5.4 secs.  I firmly believe the 276 bhp engine likely has ~300 bhp from the factory; very similar to the Leon Cupra 280 and 290 which were often dyno'd at 300-305bhp, which was exactly the same as the Mk7 Golf R. 

 

I think it's done purposefully by VW to ensure that on paper there's a performance 'pecking order'.  You have to remember that the numbers stated are the minimum the engines can achieve; in the UK we can use 99 RON, the climate is great for turbo's and even in the Highlands the altitude isn't massive. e.g; all those things lend themselves to allowing the car to produce a little bit more than 'the worst case numbers'. 

[siemi1]

Data sheet is on thing reality is other, MY19 Sportline  Estate 190KM  DSG7 4x4  i mange to have top speeg (with GPS) at 234km/h (145kph) straight road.

Whereas in katalog it says max speed is 221 km/h (137mph)

[MartiniB]

@siemi1

what is name of this app?

why not global Waze?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=waze