Hello 

 

I have a Superb 272 sportline which is the DNUA engine. 

 

I have been searching the Internet to try and find out what physical difference is there between the DNUA engine and the DNUE engine of the Golf R but cannot find any information. Just wondering if anyone knows as I interested in tuning possibilities. Thanks

Hi ! You have the wrong car in your profile unless you have 2 Superbs ? 🙂

Ha, i have changed car, so i need to amend that. Thanks 

 

The first 3 letters identify the engine from a hardware perspective, and the 4th one the ECU map and power output. As a result, DNUA and DNUE are the exact same engine (physically) with the only difference being the software it comes with from factory ie. the ECU map which affects the power output. Essentially the same units but tuned slightly differently. In other words, they can both hit the same numbers when remapped.

APR recently announced Stage 1 software available for DNU- engines. Actually they announced it for the DNUE Golf R / S3 but they should be able to offer it for the DNUA Superb too. But, since DNU engines mean dual GPF's (Gas Particulate Filter - hence the new engine code) the gains are lower (~330-340bhp) compared to what these engines were making with a Stage 1 map before the GPFs were introduced (360-370bhp).

However... Milltek, have just released their DNU- specific downpipe (with a GPF delete section) so combining the two one should be able to see again, pre-GPF figures (Stage 1: 360-370bhp, Stage 2: 380-400bhp). Ideally, you'd prefer the tuner to have developed the tune WITH the GPF delete in mind in order to profit as much as possible from it, but it's almost certain that even a "non-GPF-delete optimized" map (like APR's current Stage 1) would make more power than advertised if coupled with a GPF delete downpipe as Milltek's.

Hope I didn't sound very confusing...


 

Edited 10 August, 20196 yr by newbie69

On 10/08/2019 at 23:51, newbie69 said:

However... Milltek, have just released their DNU- specific downpipe (with a GPF delete section) so combining the two one should be able to see again, pre-GPF figures (Stage 1: 360-370bhp, Stage 2: 380-400bhp). Ideally, you'd prefer the tuner to have developed the tune WITH the GPF delete in mind in order to profit as much as possible from it, but it's almost certain that even a "non-GPF-delete optimized" map (like APR's current Stage 1) would make more power than advertised if coupled with a GPF delete downpipe as Milltek's.

 

Hi @newbie69, i’m searching for a DP with sport cat and gpf delete for my 272 Superb (DNUA engine), i already asked Milltek if the downpipe n.SSXVW513 fits my car but they wrote i have to find out it by myself.

APR from USA, when asked, said that “At this point in time we do not have a DP that will work with your car. It is something we are looking into though.”

do you know if there is yet a dp that fits on our OPF equipped TSIs?

Supersprint said that they can build one for 2.800€, and this is too much for a downpipe and i don’t want to pay so much for beeing beta tester.

Ragazzon also said they can build one starting from mine, but i want to conserve mine too.

So if you have any suggestioni i would appreciate...

And someone said the £600 Milltek downpipe for my Octavia seemed expensive. Now looks like a bargain.

3 hours ago, Roscio said:

Hi @newbie69, i’m searching for a DP with sport cat and gpf delete for my 272 Superb (DNUA engine), i already asked Milltek if the downpipe n.SSXVW513 fits my car but they wrote i have to find out it by myself.

APR from USA, when asked, said that “At this point in time we do not have a DP that will work with your car. It is something we are looking into though.”

do you know if there is yet a dp that fits on our OPF equipped TSIs?

Supersprint said that they can build one for 2.800€, and this is too much for a downpipe and i don’t want to pay so much for beeing beta tester.

Ragazzon also said they can build one starting from mine, but i want to conserve mine too.

So if you have any suggestioni i would appreciate...

I know, I had asked Milltek  a few months back when they first released the info about their upcoming "GPF delete" downpipes whether they'd be compatible with the Superb and they said the same thing: We can't say for sure since we haven't tried them on an actual Superb yet. APR has not yet released any downpipe for the R/S3 either (which are the first cars stuff is getting released for usually) so their reply also makes sense, and also the reason why they don't offer a stage 2 map since they don't have the in-house software to match it.

BUT, going by how the pre Facelift / pre OPF R-S3-Superb models compared I'd say the SSXVW513 should fit our cars too, no reason not to. Same as the R/S3 downpipes for those models fitted the 280 (non GPF) Superb even though. Or at least I am not aware of any exhaust system differentiation on the Superb in particular compared to the R/S3/Cupra/Ateca, at least in the first part of the system up to resonator.

To be 100% sure one would need to visit a dealership or have access to ETKA and compare downpipe part numbers for the current Golf R and Superb 272 but it would surprise me if they weren't the same items.

Supersprint prices are a joke. I keep wondering whether I want to go stage 2 with this car but can't make up my mind. My "racing" mentality and activity have greatly diminished in the recent years and the car has woken up a bit already with the JB4 I got (plus I am keeping my guarantee essentially) so forking out 1500eur for something I rarely practice is hard to justify. That been said, on GPF cars like ours, stage 2 now gives more bang for your back compared to non GPF cars as you don't only get the higher flow gains from upgrading the main catalyst but the gains from getting rid of the GPFs. In pre GPF cars you would see a 20bhp / 30-40Nm gain which for the cost of dp+map was rather poor. Now you should see 50-60bhp /40-60Nm which is nicer.

Decisions, decisions...

Hello again, sorry been busy at work but thanks for the info. 

Only thing is i thought that us people with GPF cars were stuck with the damn things for the car to pass MOT's? 

 

Is that not the case? 

 

 

Good question but I don't know if the effect of removing the GPFs on a petrol car is similar to DPFs on Diesel cars and whether it would result in a MOT fail. In any case, going with the HJS catalyst version (and not the Race one) would help avoiding issues. 

Actually Milltek could have the answer to that question (ie. what's the case with the Golf R). I remember when asking about the different downpipe options on the non-GPF engine they said they offered a  CE approved variant, specifically for German TUV  so maybe they've done their testing on the new items too.

 

Edited 13 August, 20196 yr by newbie69

15 hours ago, newbie69 said:

To be 100% sure one would need to visit a dealership or have access to ETKA and compare downpipe part numbers for the current Golf R and Superb 272 but it would surprise me if they weren't the same items.

Thanks to @Bap33, i realized that Superb, S3 and Golf R with OPF have all the same downpipe (part n. 3Q0254501QX).

So, now i know that Milltek's SSXVW513 DP fits (or should fit) our car. And now i can start creating my wish list for stage II or maybe stage III...😃🙌

 

@noskodavan maybe this ETKA finder helps for your researches too

15 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Supersprint prices are a joke. I keep wondering whether I want to go stage 2 with this car but can't make up my mind. My "racing" mentality and activity have greatly diminished in the recent years and the car has woken up a bit already with the JB4 I got (plus I am keeping my guarantee essentially) so forking out 1500eur for something I rarely practice is hard to justify. That been said, on GPF cars like ours, stage 2 now gives more bang for your back compared to non GPF cars as you don't only get the higher flow gains from upgrading the main catalyst but the gains from getting rid of the GPFs. In pre GPF cars you would see a 20bhp / 30-40Nm gain which for the cost of dp+map was rather poor. Now you should see 50-60bhp /40-60Nm which is nicer.

Decisions, decisions...

I agree, mine has woken up too with a remap, but i want more. Knowing what this engine could deliver, i don't feel satisfyed. Only thing i'm afraid is noise. I want to keep it as quiet as possible, don't know if there are DP with sport cat that are not much more louder than stock one.

Everyone i ask to, says that "it's not noise, it's sport sound!", but it's noise to me. IMHO.

Well that confirms it I guess. I mean there was anyway no reason for the Superb's downpipe to be any different to its cousin models but now we know for sure.

Regarding noise, I am very much with you on that. I've argued with several people that were claiming their upgraded downpipes were "almost like stock", when in fact it wasn't like that. From the research I did for my previous car (same engine but no OPF) and by driving in friends R's and Cupra's at the time I concluded the closest thing to stock is a high quality catalyst like HJS 200-cell and a downpipe that retains the original catalyst location. As stock, the catalyst is close to the turbo, still inside the engine bay. As you might have seen, some downpipes re-locate it under the car and that seems to be creating even more noise. Milltek's solution keeps it where it is as stock though so you are safe, and by going with the HJS version instead of the "Race cat" or even worse the cat-less one you get the least noise increase possible. Still, while spooling under full throttle it will be louder but probably tolerable levels for most people and more important, when travelling off-boost like cruising etc. there should be no extra noise.

It's hard to say 100% how much more noise you'll get (plus as we both said, noise perception is rather subjective) if you're not trying the exact same downpipe that will go on your car, which is why I also haven't made up my mind yet. Simply comparing other products on other cars may not give an accurate idea. And of-course, leave the cat-back OEM. There are no measurable gains, just more unwanted noise.

I guess someone will have to be the brave one and try it first but I don't see myself being that one, although I have to admit current GBP-EUR rates make it VERY, very tempting to buy that dp from UK...  You know, just in case I need it in the future... 

 

Edited 14 August, 20196 yr by newbie69

Just to confirm newbie69 what you have stated above my 245 has the Milltek downpipe with the HJS 200 cell cat in the standard location and at say 30mph in 4th gear (50kph) or 60mph in 6th gear (100kph) it is as quiet as the standard car was. It is only as the revs increase upto 7,000rpm if you are in the first 3 gears that the noise (which sounds good BTW) that noise levels increase. Most passengers in my car have no idea it is not standard unless I put my foot down then they become shocked at the rate of acceleration. They tend to go all quiet unlike the car. 10 months after the Milltek system was fitted and it never fails to put a big grin on my face and at 54 I am no boy racer and would not put up with a droning exhaust on my mainly motorway commute. Life is too short to wonder just go for it you won't be disappointed.

 

On 10/08/2019 at 22:51, newbie69 said:

The first 3 letters identify the engine from a hardware perspective, and the 4th one the ECU map and power output. As a result, DNUA and DNUE are the exact same engine (physically) with the only difference being the software it comes with from factory ie. the ECU map which affects the power output. Essentially the same units but tuned slightly differently. In other words, they can both hit the same numbers when remapped.

APR recently announced Stage 1 software available for DNU- engines. Actually they announced it for the DNUE Golf R / S3 but they should be able to offer it for the DNUA Superb too. But, since DNU engines mean dual GPF's (Gas Particulate Filter - hence the new engine code) the gains are lower (~330-340bhp) compared to what these engines were making with a Stage 1 map before the GPFs were introduced (360-370bhp).

However... Milltek, have just released their DNU- specific downpipe (with a GPF delete section) so combining the two one should be able to see again, pre-GPF figures (Stage 1: 360-370bhp, Stage 2: 380-400bhp). Ideally, you'd prefer the tuner to have developed the tune WITH the GPF delete in mind in order to profit as much as possible from it, but it's almost certain that even a "non-GPF-delete optimized" map (like APR's current Stage 1) would make more power than advertised if coupled with a GPF delete downpipe as Milltek's.

Hope I didn't sound very confusing...


 

 

Totally understood.  But there are other differences I believe.  I have  Superb 3 280 version.

My understanding is that the Superb runs a EA888 Gen 1/2 engine, as did some Golf R's.  The latest Golf R 7.5 runs a EA888 gen 3 engine.  A major difference is the gen 3 has an integrated exhaust manifold cast into the alloy head.  The Gen 1/2 does not.  This promotes better power I believe. 

 

A good read.

 

https://www.alexsautohaus.com/blog/vwaudi-ea888-gen-3-mqbmlb-engines-explained/

 

A 272 would never get through the MOT if the "GPF" is removed.  

5 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Regarding noise, I am very much with you on that. I've argued with several people that were claiming their upgraded downpipes were "almost like stock", when in fact it wasn't like that. From the research I did for my previous car (same engine but no OPF) and by driving in friends R's and Cupra's at the time I concluded the closest thing to stock is a high quality catalyst like HJS 200-cell and a downpipe that retains the original catalyst location. As stock, the catalyst is close to the turbo, still inside the engine bay. As you might have seen, some downpipes re-locate it under the car and that seems to be creating even more noise. Milltek's solution keeps it where it is as stock though so you are safe, and by going with the HJS version instead of the "Race cat" or even worse the cat-less one you get the least noise increase possible. Still, while spooling under full throttle it will be louder but probably tolerable levels for most people and more important, when travelling off-boost like cruising etc. there should be no extra noise.

It's hard to say 100% how much more noise you'll get (plus as we both said, noise perception is rather subjective) if you're not trying the exact same downpipe that will go on your car, which is why I also haven't made up my mind yet. Simply comparing other products on other cars may not give an accurate idea. And of-course, leave the cat-back OEM. There are no measurable gains, just more unwanted noise.

 

2 hours ago, shyVRS245 said:

Just to confirm newbie69 what you have stated above my 245 has the Milltek downpipe with the HJS 200 cell cat in the standard location and at say 30mph in 4th gear (50kph) or 60mph in 6th gear (100kph) it is as quiet as the standard car was. It is only as the revs increase upto 7,000rpm if you are in the first 3 gears that the noise (which sounds good BTW) that noise levels increase. Most passengers in my car have no idea it is not standard unless I put my foot down then they become shocked at the rate of acceleration. They tend to go all quiet unlike the car. 10 months after the Milltek system was fitted and it never fails to put a big grin on my face and at 54 I am no boy racer and would not put up with a droning exhaust on my mainly motorway commute. Life is too short to wonder just go for it you won't be disappointed.

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences, it's helpful to me.
Full throttle extra noise is not a problem, because it depends only on me, but knowing that with HJS cat i'll have low extra noise (or not at all) when cruising comforts me! 

 

2 hours ago, shyVRS245 said:

Life is too short to wonder just go for it you won't be disappointed.

 

Totally agree!! 👍

"It's better to regret what you have done than what you haven't." 

16 hours ago, RGKTSi said:

 

 

Totally understood.  But there are other differences I believe.  I have  Superb 3 280 version.

My understanding is that the Superb runs a EA888 Gen 1/2 engine, as did some Golf R's.  The latest Golf R 7.5 runs a EA888 gen 3 engine.  A major difference is the gen 3 has an integrated exhaust manifold cast into the alloy head.  The Gen 1/2 does not.  This promotes better power I believe. 

 

A good read.

 

https://www.alexsautohaus.com/blog/vwaudi-ea888-gen-3-mqbmlb-engines-explained/

 

A 272 would never get through the MOT if the "GPF" is removed.  

Not really, but maybe I can help clearing things up as this graph mixes engines of different cars and is thus confusing.

Yours, and every other MK3 280 Superb has the same engine as every MK7 Golf R: The gen.3 2.0L TSI codenamed:  CJX- (4th letter depends on power output).  There is no 2.0 TSI car post 2013 that is not gen.3, meaning the MK7 Golf and MK3 Superb never got a gen1/2 at all.  Relating to this thread, all MK7 R compatible downpipes fit the 280 Superb too.

Now, the 2019 models like the 272 Superb as well as the 2019 MK7.5 Golf R  still run on a gen.3 TSI but with slight modifications to qualify for WLTP regulations: the addition of two GPF's and the deletion of the multi point injection. However this is not a new gen.3B engine, merely a WLTP adapted gen.3 and again, anything that fits the 7.5R, fits the 272 Superb and vice versa. Keep in mind, US market, where the above graph originates from, never got multi-point injection even in the MK7 R/GTI and I am unaware whether they are getting GPF's too so the writer is referring to TSI variants that are not all applicable to EU / Rest of the world markets.

The last engine in the graph, the gen.3b running on the Budack cycle is only available with a 190ps output and is available on the Tiguan and (I believe) the 2.0 190 facelift Superb, as well as the Ateca and others (codename: DKN-). There is not yet any high power version of it for the Golf R, S3 or Superb. And I'm guessing these models won't ever see a high power version of the gen.3b till the end of their cycle (for the Golf it's just another year anyway), they will simply make due with the WLTP compliant modification of the gen.3 (codename: DNU-) they got already.

Edited 15 August, 20196 yr by newbie69

8 hours ago, newbie69 said:

The last engine in the graph, the gen.3b running on the Budack cycle is only available with a 190ps output and is available on the Tiguan and (I believe) the 2.0 190 facelift Superb, as well as the Ateca and others (codename: DKN-). There is not yet any high power version of it for the Golf R, S3 or Superb. And I'm guessing these models won't ever see a high power version of the gen.3b till the end of their cycle (for the Golf it's just another year anyway), they will simply make due with the WLTP compliant modification of the gen.3 (codename: DNU-) they got already.

Really?! I thought that whith our DNUA engine we were Budak's beta testers. Good to know!

11 minutes ago, Roscio said:

Really?! I thought that whith our DNUA engine we were Budak's beta testers. Good to know!

That's what I thought too in the beginning but according to a tuner that worked among the first with these engines it's not a new Budack cycle engine as found in the Tiguan, just a normal gen3 with GPFs added.

This is confirmed by the fact our car's compression ratio remains at 9.3 in typical gen.3 fashion. Gen.3b operate at 11.7 or so iirc.

2 hours ago, newbie69 said:

That's what I thought too in the beginning but according to a tuner that worked among the first with these engines it's not a new Budack cycle engine as found in the Tiguan, just a normal gen3 with GPFs added.

This is confirmed by the fact our car's compression ratio remains at 9.3 in typical gen.3 fashion. Gen.3b operate at 11.7 or so iirc.

11.7 is a really high compression rate...
btw, that’s a good news! 👍

On 15/08/2019 at 20:29, Roscio said:

11.7 is a really high compression rate...
btw, that’s a good news! 👍

Thread revival but...

Interestingly the higher NOx from diesels is often blamed (in part) on the higher compression... I wonder how NOx emissions compare.

 

Does anyone have any updates to this thread as I am debating going all electric or a 272etc as a last bit of fun..

Edited 25 February, 20215 yr by cheezemonkhai

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Thread revival but...

Interestingly the higher NOx from diesels is often blamed (in part) on the higher compression... I wonder how NOx emissions compare.

 

Does anyone have any updates to this thread as I am debating going all electric or a 272etc as a last bit of fun..

Updates as to what aspect you mean? 

The question about hardware differences between Superb 272 - R 300 was answered I believe (no differences),

Ahh my mistake I misread the original comment 👍