Hi Guys,

I am new here and hope you guys can help, I'me the proud owner of a 2013 montecarlo 1.6 d for a few years now had no problems but power steering has packed in :-/

 

I've read on here similar issues but after this research I'me still stuck in need of help:

 

Symptoms:

-last 6 months intermittent working/not working , instant cut off with yellow warning wheel displayed on dash, no funny noises or groans etc..sometimes first thing on a morning would not work then after a few miles would work?

-last few months stopped working altogether with yellow warning wheel displayed on dash

 

Car will now fail mot Skoda garage plugged in computer and advised I need a new electric power steering pump and servo pump cable set repair kit quoted at £1386, I said I would leave it for now but still got charged £96 for them to tell me my power steering did not work which I knew!

 

So:

I bought a second hand pump of the bay and fitted it, the old one when I turned it upside down drained water out from electric plug in points?!

-second hand replacement still does not work and I still have dash warning light... bugger?

-I have not replaced the cable set ...

-I have checked battery volts on tickover 13.87v - all OK with battery and alternator..

-Checked the fuses advised on this forum under steering wheel and on battery all OK..

-now at a loss as to problem..

-Can I bench test second hand pump I've bought to make sure its not a dud?

 

Anything else to check I've missed?

 

Any help greatly received

 

Marcus

There really is only a few possible scenarios......

 

1. the wiring is faulty, hence it was originally intermittent but has now failed completely (hence second hand pump does not work as well)

2. Pump was on it's way out, AND second hand pump is duff (possible but unlikely)

3. Fuse itself has and / or had a break and was also causing intermittent operation (worked after use as engine bay heated up)

 

Not sure what the cable repair kit is / contains, but if your existing wiring / plug looks ok, we could assume it is, or is it corroded to the point it needs replacing I assume where it plugs onto the power pack ? The water you mentioned is never

going to be helpful in that instance.

 

Fuses, you say you have checked all the fuses by the battery, does that include the very large ones which are not replacable, you have to replace the whole fuse block...

 

Main supply Fuse 5 and 6 are BOTH 50A and supply either the rad fan / glow plugs OR steering pump depending on exact date of your build, however because they are both the same rating you could swap the power feeds on 5 and 6.

This should prove the main fuse is OK

 

Fuse 16 5Amp in the interior fuse box (by your knees) should also need to be good, if you are unsure as fuses can "look" ok, remove and test it, if still unsure replace it.

 

I would use your old pump to test initially, because if that works then it could be a wiring fault.

 

There is 2 connectors on the pump, on is a 2 PIN with large 10mm² cables, they should be Red / black stripe and Brown. There is also the switch feed which "should" be 0.5mm Black and Yellow, which is the fuse mentioned above that "may" need also a 12v supply onto it to allow the pump to run. I would suggest you don't run the pump for very long as it would need fluid to most likely lubricate / cool it.

so :-

Red / Black strip 10mm² =  +12V main power supply

Brown 10mm² == Earth / ground 

Balck and Yellow 0.5mm²  +12v Switched live

 

Main Fuses on the battery

 

              

 

 

Interior Fuse 16 - 5Amp

 

Edited 6 April, 20206 yr by UrbanPanzer

Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply @UrbanPanzer I have read through your suggestions thanks you 👍

 

I have attached some pictures below of existing wiring/plug all look fine and earth connection is solid.

 

I was checking the wrong fuse on the battery so my first check now will be 50amp fuses 5 and 6 as you suggest, will also change the interior fuse even if it looks OK.

 

Will also check old pump as suggested if above doesnt solve the issue

 

Thanks

 

Marcus

 

 

13.87 is rather low for a charging voltage, was that measured at the battery posts or somewhere else?

Ideally measure right at alternator output stud and with meter neg probe on alt bodywork.

Sounds reasonable for an idle voltage Wino, dependant of course on whatever electrical loads were being drawn at that time.

it was 13.87 on battery at idle, I will also check at alternator as suggested 

I would consider 13.87 a "little" low as compared to a strong voltage of around 14.2 - 14.4,  this does rely on a good connection / meter at the battery terminals.

 

however it should be fine for normal use as long as the charging system can maintain that voltage (or atleast 1v over 12v)  when heavy loads are switched on, ie rear window heater, headlights etc.

 

Those plug connections look clean and OK to me (from picture that is)

Edited 13 April, 20206 yr by UrbanPanzer

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

Sounds reasonable for an idle voltage Wino, dependant of course on whatever electrical loads were being drawn at that time.

 

I'd much rather see 14.4/5ish across the battery terminals with cold engine/alternator at cool ambient temperature.   Check yours with both connections at alt and then for comparison at the battery posts.

 

13.something may well indicate a high-resistance connection between alt and battery (either positive or earth leads), which will likely impact high current consumers such as the PAS pump; as well as battery recharging generally. Note the OP's observation about it not working well first thing, but working better after a few miles; consistent with low system voltage and battery state of charge.

 

Measuring with both probes at the alternator helps to both prove whether or not the alternator is in spec; also if the reading is rather lower at the battery terminals, that the wiring between the two is not well connected, assuming modest loading/consumers in use.

 

The main earth lead between engine and chassis is a prime candidate for poor/corroded connection at the engine/starter for reasons I can discuss if such a poor connection does seem to be present.

 

Edit: @marcusbarlo and @J.R. and @anyonereading be careful measuring at alternator not to short the output stud to anything earthed while probing in there with your meter lead.

 

 

Edited 13 April, 20206 yr by Wino

Very good points, thanks for the learning, thats what i love about this forum.

 

My readings have been the lazy ones either at the battery terminals, VCDS ones which I am quite sceptical of and the little volmeter connected to the cigarette lighter feed, I have 3  of them and they all vary by 0.2v but it is a very good comparator.

OK guys I spent a bit of time this afternoon trying your suggestions, thank you..  please bear in mind I am not an electrical guru ! 

• Interior fuse 16 - 5 amp replaced
• battery fuses 5 and 6  the two 50 amp ones - swopped over leads
• have re checked the battery voltage at idle today - 14.23
• checked the voltage at alternator output stud - 14.32

 

• took car for test drive but to no avail power steering still not working warning light still on.

 

my bench test of old pump using an old battery at 12.0v - no life from pump - assuming 12v is enough to make it spin if its working and my bench test wiring is OK?

 

next test I am thinking bench test of new pump ? take off car to check or check in situe? 

 

or is there some other checks I can do?

 

Good news on the alternator/charging system checks.

Not sure I'd expect much further action from the old pump if it was full of water, I think your wiring looks OK, if rather thin for the main power feed pair.  Not sure if the thing requires any 'waking up' over the CANbus in order to spin up though.

 

Would be nice to be able to continuity check the CAN wires to somewhere else they should be bussed to. Perhaps that's what the 'servo pump cable set repair kit' addresses? '

I'll have a look at wiring info tomorrow if I have it, and @UrbanPanzer doesn't beat me to it.

Ideally would need the actual fault code to be read now..... or do you have a print out from the Skoda garage ??

as Wino mentioned, whether it also needs a CAN input to run..

 

CAN wiring......

 

EDIT............Looking at the CAN wiring, it receives engine speed and driving speed, so if the wiring is good, then engine speed "should" be there,

if the car is not moving ie driving speed = 0 then you would expect maximum assistance.......ie it works.

 

 

 

Edited 13 April, 20206 yr by UrbanPanzer

Try this.....not sure if engine should be running or not, I woudl try it with engine off first.........make sure battery is in good health and all other loads are switched off.

 

Re-engaging protection The electrohydraulic power-assisted steering has a re-engaging protection after faults, failure or crash. After a crash or after the display of the crash signal on the vehicle diagnosis, measurement and information system -VAS- the vehicle memory must be erased to de-activate the re-engaging protection. The re-engaging protection can be neutralised by switching off the ignition and switching it on again. If necessary wait 15 minutes to allow the engine pump aggregate to cool down after overheating. If after this waiting period the re-engaging protection cannot be neutralised by switching the engine on again, the fault must be found in the vehicle electric system or e.g. in the engine pump aggregate. In these instances perform the self-diagnosis and if necessary replace the engine pump aggregate.   Offcourse we are potentially looking to deep, the faults are latched, so even if we assume the new pump is good, it may not run until the fault code is cleared (if it will)

Edited 13 April, 20206 yr by UrbanPanzer

I have a feeling (now I think about it more) the engine speed signal via CAN is a requirement for the pump to run, so the standalone battery/wiring set-up may be inadequate to get action. Pretty sure the PAS doesn't work with just ignition on, engine needs to be running.

 

If you add your approx location to your profile it may enable someone with VCDS to offer assistance?

3 hours ago, Wino said:

I have a feeling (now I think about it more) the engine speed signal via CAN is a requirement for the pump to run, so the standalone battery/wiring set-up may be inadequate to get action. Pretty sure the PAS doesn't work with just ignition on, engine needs to be running.

 

If you add your approx location to your profile it may enable someone with VCDS to offer assistance?

 

So no use me taking the new pump off to do a bench test then.. @Wino I've updated my profile I am located in Yorkshire area, home Wakefield work Sheffield, if anyone has a VCDS to help assist diagnosis it would be appreciated although unlikely with current lockdown restrictions 🙁

 

Here is the parts advised by Skoda including the cable set repair kit code, the invoice does not list the fault code itself.

 

Marcus

OK, google images says that's just a pair of wires with terminations for the main power feed.

 

Did the secondhand pump have exactly the same part number and come with a blanking plug on the three-way angle sensor connector like your original seems to have?

1 hour ago, Wino said:

OK, google images says that's just a pair of wires with terminations for the main power feed.

 

Yes that's what I found just wires and large two pin connector plug which look fine on my car as per my pic above

 

1 hour ago, Wino said:

Did the secondhand pump have exactly the same part number and come with a blanking plug on the three-way angle sensor connector like your original seems to have?

Yes part number exactly the same and yes small right hand side connector with blanking plug not used on original part and replacement part

That all sounds OK then.  If it helps with regard to continuity testing the CAN wires, they also go to engine ECU pin number 67 (orange/brown) and 68 (orange/black). May be easier to access at the end of the test meter probes than stuff in the cabin.

5 hours ago, Wino said:

That all sounds OK then.  If it helps with regard to continuity testing the CAN wires, they also go to engine ECU pin number 67 (orange/brown) and 68 (orange/black). May be easier to access at the end of the test meter probes than stuff in the cabin.

 

By no means saying your wrong at all, just find it strange no mention of CAN errors on diagnosis.......infact I don't even see why they needed to replace the power connector / wires......unless there is no feed coming down there and that "was" the issue but they threw in a new pump to add a little bit more (would not surprise me)

 

Im still wondering if it won't work till the fault is cleared 🤔

 

Silly but obvious question, there is +12V at the red / black wire in the power connector ?

Edited 14 April, 20206 yr by UrbanPanzer

56 minutes ago, UrbanPanzer said:

 

By no means saying your wrong at all, just find it strange no mention of CAN errors on diagnosis.......infact I don't even see why they needed to replace the power connector / wires......unless there is no feed coming down there and that "was" the issue but they threw in a new pump to add a little bit more (would not surprise me)

 

Im still wondering if it won't work till the fault is cleared 🤔

 

Silly but obvious question, there is +12V at the red / black wire in the power connector ?

 

Yeah it was just something relatively easy to check, to rule out a possible cause of the 'new' pump not working. Would be odd for the obvious water in pump fault to be accompanied by another quite different fault...except... the way that water can get into the pump is via these very connectors one of which carries the CAN wiring. Belt and braces check.

 

There is evidence of brutality/damage to the main power connector in one of the photos above, maybe that was why the garage recommended a new power loom, because 'someone' damaged it at some stage?

 

I'm not familiar with situations where a working replacement component doesn't work in a new vehicle home until the fault history in the vehicle is erased, can you lead me to any documentation describing this, or is it from personal experience?

 

Good call on checking the main power feed for voltage, also examine the locking tab on the loom connector to see if it still works as designed.

I'm also struggling to see where it was mentioned by the OP that he's confirmed the presence of the ignition 12V at its pump connection, just mentioned that the fuse is replaced?

 

Edited 14 April, 20206 yr by Wino
missing t, and spurious '

2 hours ago, Wino said:

 

I'm not familiar with situations where a working replacement component doesn't work in a new vehicle home until the fault history in the vehicle is erased, can you lead me to any documentation describing this, or is it from personal experience?

 

Well seen it before on other makes, especially Land Rovers, also with the amount of things that need to be "coded" in VAG cars, it really would not surprise me to be honest, although I dont "know" if this is the case, just throwing ideas out there,

 

The bit I posted earlier in the topic is interesting, as it does mention faults.....this is in the workshop manual, although it does not state that it will or will not work after replacement, but its from the steering assy section.

The key words are "re-engaging", so does that mean starting to work again, I can understand it after a crash as its also connected to the airbag unit, but as mentioned it does state faults as well.

 

Re-engaging protection

The electrohydraulic power-assisted steering has a re-engaging protection after faults, failure or crash.

After a crash or after the display of the crash signal on the vehicle diagnosis, measurement and information system -VAS- the vehicle memory must be erased to de-activate the re-engaging protection.

The re-engaging protection can be neutralised by switching off the ignition and switching it on again. If necessary wait 15 minutes to allow the engine pump aggregate to cool down after overheating. If after this waiting period the re-engaging protection cannot be neutralised by switching the engine on again, the fault must be found in the vehicle electric system or e.g. in the engine pump aggregate. In these instances perform the self-diagnosis and if necessary replace the engine pump aggregate.

 

That looks like a particularly poor Google translation of a menu from a Chinese restaurant.

On 14/04/2020 at 18:33, Wino said:

 

 

 

There is evidence of brutality/damage to the main power connector in one of the photos above,

 

Good call on checking the main power feed for voltage

 

 

Above two points first damage was me trying to get plug off in situe so not cause of original problem, second point yes ive checked power to main black red power feed today and there is power see pics. 12.4 volts with engine off

 

Do i also need to check the switched power to smaller plug? Not sure how to do that if it’s switched ?

 

 

Turn the ignition on, that's what switches it.