Timing Belt / Enine Damage

[ronnievincent]

2015 Skoda Octavia Estate 140 4x4 Engine Code: CRMB
P0016 CMP Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28), Incorrect Correlation
P13D6 Cylinder 3 Internal Pressure Sensor, Implausible Signal
P0101 Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70), Implausible Signal

Had the 3 faults come up on VCDS Scan and started with P13D6. Replaced the Glow plug but still had fault. So, as I was getting know where with it took the car to an Independent VAG Specialist that I use for the major work on all my VAG cars such as Timing Belt, Clutch etc. Drove it to them, around 15 miles, and left it with them. When they checked it out they found a large oil leak in the timing case area and the timing belt smothered in oil. Not only that but it appeared that the belt had 'jumped' 3 teeth! They were not prepared to run the engine to see where the oil leak was because of this but agreed to replace all the oil seals they could to hopefully cure the oil leak and fit a new belt kit and water pump then check out for any further damage. They did all that, set the timing up and started the car, which, appeared to run ok at tick over? However when they took it out for a test drive they found it was 'down on power' and when they returned and put it on their diagnostic machine (Haynes Pro?) it showed an EGR fault while driving but not at tick over. There machine came up with a code 233-12 but as this model has 2 (parts) to the EGR, one at the rear of the engine at the turbo/exhaust end and one at the front of the engine it could not identify exactly which part was at fault! They rang the parts supply, TPS (owned by VAG and only supply genuine parts) to see which part they supplied most of but they told them neither. So currently their 2 possible diagnosis are, 1) one or both parts of the EGR are faulty and require replacing (the rear one alone will cost around £1k with labour) or 2) possible valve / engine damage due to timing belt being so far out. They did say that they had never seen a vehicle that far out that still ran! Their recommendation was to take the car to the Skoda Dealer and run it on their factory diagnostic machine and obtain the report as they should be able to identify which part of the EGR is faulty if that is the issue. The sting in the tail however is, while driving the car home from the garage, which did start and initially run reasonably well began to lose power after about 3 miles and eventually stopped altogether and would not restart. Recovery firm brought me home and it now stands outside the house not going anywhere. Was thinking of finding somebody that could come and do a compression test (believe it can be done by removing the glow plugs) to see if that identifies any engine damage. Quotes for a replacement engine are coming in at between £2.5k and £3k so need to be pretty certain what is wrong before making a decision.
Apologies for going on for a bit but wondered if this was a 'safe' engine or had any suggestions what could be the cause?

[allan1888]

Surely before replacing any parts they should have checked the internals for any damage due to the belt jumping. Seems crazy to me that they would start replacing parts without actually checking for internal damage.

[classic]

Presumably the car was running ok and then developed an issue ? How did that happen ? What sort of mileage has the car done ? What’s the service history ?

The timing out by 3 teeth, leaks from oil seals, implausible cylinder pressure fault code suggest to me some kind of major mechanical failure, possibly excessive crankcase pressure could have blown the seals.

Before firing a parts cannon at the car I think the VAG specialist should have gone back to basics, reset the timing correctly and then done compression tests and cylinder leakage tests on the engine.

The quote below worries me if they are vag specialists....

 ”There machine came up with a code 233-12 but as this model has 2 (parts) to the EGR, one at the rear of the engine at the turbo/exhaust end and one at the front of the engine it could notidentify exactly which part was at fault! They rang the parts supply, TPS (owned by VAG and only supply genuine parts) to see which part they supplied most of but they told them neither.”

[cheezemonkhai]

If they’re a specialist, one would hope they had more specialist tools.

 

i have to agree, I would have taken out the glow plugs and stuck a camera in to look for damage before replacing parts if the timing was out.

[ronnievincent]

Thanks for all the replies,

1) Classic, the driver, (I run a small taxi company) reported the 'glow plug light' flashing and at that time the car was still running. Run a VCDS scan and came up with the 3 faults listed. Replaced Number 3 Glow Plug, cleared faults but did not cure the fault. That's why I took it to the garage. They have done lots of work on my other vehicles with no issues. It drove to the garage ok, with no noises, but obviously the light on. The car has 131,00 on it, bought 2nd hand last year, ex Lease car and has service history as always maintained by a Skoda Garage and nothing amiss there. Did forget to mention that the 'reason' for the belt slip was a failed pulley which is why they would not do anything to find the oil leaks, What they did 'offer', at my risk, strip it down, replace the oils seals they could, fit new timing belt with new pulleys and water pump and move on from there? I agreed to this because even at that point there did not appear to be any 'major' engine issues such as miss fire, knocking or excessive smoke. As for the quotes, that is using genuine parts and is a complicated job as it is a 4x4 which requires a lot of strip down to get to the rear EGR valve. The 'ordinary' Octavia costs around £700 anyway. The engine quotes were from engine rebuilders, not the garage, as being only a small business, as mentioned, don't have the specialist tools are the workshop availability / time for a major engine overhaul. They have attempted one before and it all went wrong for them and cost them a lot of time and money so they prefer to leave that to larger concerns.

2) cheezemonkhai, as a small concern I don't think they are in a position to invest in all of the specialist tool that a dealer may have to undertake a major rebuild that they may only see one or two plus as stated above they don't really have the manpower, workshop space or time to undertake these types of job.

3) allan1888, they did offer me the choice to do nothing or take the risk, which I did.

[Guest]

Like others I'd question how you managed to drive 15 miles to the garage, but after working on the car they found it was down on power?  That suggests they didn't repair the car properly.  If any new fault / further damage was caused by the timing belt being so far out, the possibility exists it was caused by their repair / test drive.

 

I hear what you say in response to cheezemonkhai, but if that's the case then they may work on VAG cars but if they don't have all the specialist tooling is it correct to refer to them as 'specialists' ? Sounds like it's just a generic garage.

Edited 27 April, 2020 by Guest

[cheezemonkhai]

As above, if individuals can afford a lot less than £1000 on even the fanciest version of vcds and the lead....

 

Any garage is just a garage unless they invest a small amount on specialist tools.

 

That’s not to say they are a bad garage, but they can’t claim to be a specialist.

 

As for rebuilding the engine to change the egr...I would be buying online workshop access for an hour or two for not much to confirm that.

[classic]

14 hours ago, ronnievincent said:

Apologies for going on for a bit but wondered if this was a 'safe' engine or had any suggestions what could be the cause?

The issue was originally a failed pulley then, which affected the timing ? A lot of stuff can go wrong if it’s been run like that.

I think damage does occur if the timing belt slips or breaks so it’s not a “safe” engine.

As for suggestions, someone posted on here a couple of months ago with a 2.0 tdi with similar mileage to yours, which had destroyed at least one piston, but I can’t seem to find the thread to post a link. I have also read about problems caused by the VVT, variable valve timing unit. It is worked by oil pressure and can cause problems if it fails, I believe they can fail and leak oil internally so they don’t work properly and the valve timing is wrong. 
I think you’re going to need a mechanic that knows these engines properly to look at it.

Edited 27 April, 2020 by classic

[ronnievincent]

Thanks for all the replies,

1) Classic, the driver, (I run a small taxi company) reported the 'glow plug light' flashing and at that time the car was still running. Run a VCDS scan and came up with the 3 faults listed. Replaced Number 3 Glow Plug, cleared faults but did not cure the fault. That's why I took it to the garage. They have done lots of work on my other vehicles with no issues. It drove to the garage ok, with no noises, but obviously the light on. The car has 131,00 on it, bought 2nd hand last year, ex Lease car and has service history as always maintained by a Skoda Garage and nothing amiss there. Did forget to mention that the 'reason' for the belt slip was a failed pulley which is why they would not do anything to find the oil leaks, What they did 'offer', at my risk, strip it down, replace the oils seals they could, fit new timing belt with new pulleys and water pump and move on from there? I agreed to this because even at that point there did not appear to be any 'major' engine issues such as miss fire, knocking or excessive smoke. As for the quotes, that is using genuine parts and is a complicated job as it is a 4x4 which requires a lot of strip down to get to the rear EGR valve. The 'ordinary' Octavia costs around £700 anyway. The engine quotes were from engine rebuilders, not the garage, as being only a small business, as mentioned, don't have the specialist tools are the workshop availability / time for a major engine overhaul. They have attempted one before and it all went wrong for them and cost them a lot of time and money so they prefer to leave that to larger concerns.

2) cheezemonkhai, as a small concern I don't think they are in a position to invest in all of the specialist tool that a dealer may have to undertake a major rebuild that they may only see one or two plus as stated above they don't really have the manpower, workshop space or time to undertake these types of job.

3) allan1888, they did offer me the choice to do nothing or take the risk, which I did.

 

[ronnievincent]

Just thought I would post an update on the situation.

Having looked at all the possibilities I have tried a few things with the following results.

1) I removed the Exhaust Temperature Sensor from the DPF under the bonnet and the car started, bit of black smoke to start with but then cleared. Didn't run great, only up to about 1800 rpm but no rattles or bangs as if there was anything major wrong with the engine internals?

2) Got my self a set of Oxygen Sensor removal sockets and removed the Oxygen Sensor from the 'front' of the DPF and the engine ran even better. It would rev up to 2500 rpm (which I believe is the maximum when stationary) and had it taking over very sweetly at around 750/800 rpm for around 45 minutes with, again, no rattles or bangs etc.

3) Removed the DPF Pressure Differential pipes from the valves and although it would start and run only just, as it had done when it originally stopped on my way back from the garage.

4) I used my small 12v Tyre Compressor down the DPF front sensor pipe and listened for any hiss of air from the exhaust at the rear. I could not hear anything

5) I then used the compressor on the rear sensor pipe and this time I could hear a hiss from the rear of the exhaust.

 

So, I am wondering, is there some kind of blockage in the DPF, Cat or Exhaust or is there still a problem with the EGR valve that is simply allowing too much dirty air into the intake making it impossible to run?

 

One suggestion I had, from another forum, was that there was an 'internal engine problem' due to the oil seals blowing which was caused due to excessive crankcase pressure. Given some form of blockage it may well have created excessive back pressure in the exhaust system which in turn created the pressure in the crankcase blowing the seals?

 

It's due back in the garage this week and they are looking at it further but I am beginning to doubt major engine damage (as it runs pretty well with the oxygen sensor removed) but not what is causing the issue, is it because everything is now 'back as it should be' and the fault is now become evident, will update further when I have had it back to the garage.

[cheezemonkhai]

Tried a new oxygen sensor?

When they go they can cause some very poor running/consumption.

[TDIum]

These are normally reliable engines. 

Sounds like your taxi is fundamentally screwed. 

Lots of cheap diesels around the second hand market because of ahem, you know that thing a few years ago. 

[ronnievincent]

FURTHER UPDATE,

So, had the car back to the garage, they ran the same checks as I had plus having the advantage of a lift they also were able to remove the exhaust pipe from the DPF. They got it to run the same as I could by removing the oxygen sensor but with that back in and the exhaust disconnected it would still not run so the conclusion is that the DPF is blocked completely, however, with no obvious cause of why? There was the EGR fault after the initial work was done and is possible that this may be the root of the problem. However, they have also now moved away from the possibility of major engine failure, because like me they found it would run up to 2500 rpm quite happily with the oxygen sensor removed with no 'excessive' smoke, knocks or bangs. So, at the moment, the possibilities are, cut my losses and dispose of the car, investigate the DPF issue further to try and identify the actual fault and cause or fit a new DPF and EFR Valve with no guarantee that the DPF will not be stuffed again in a short space of time!

[classic]

Thanks for the Interesting update, so often people never get round to it so we can’t learn for future questions.Might be worth trying to get a second hand DPF and EGR.
 

Ive used these guys before,

https://www.synetiq.co.uk/

quick search found a crmb engined Octavia being broken with 72k miles.

https://www.synetiq.co.uk/breaking-vehicles/details/skoda-octavia-se-technology-tdi/11964/

 

Edited 21 May, 2020 by classic

[ronnievincent]

UPDATE / FURTHER INFORMATION REQUIRED: DPF info required

1) Thanks to Classic, I have emailed the breakers for a price.

 

2) Having now come to the conclusion that in all probability the DPF is blocked the options are; a) scrap the car, costly in the extreme given I have only owned for about 6 months and the money already spent on it; b) remove the DPF and either have it cleaned or purchase a secondhand unit to get it running?, then do some further investigation as to why it blocked in the first place to fix it and keep it or get it running to part ex it for another car.

 

So, the information I am looking for is, can the DPF unit be removed from the car (relatively) easily? As far as I can make out the down pipe is not part of the unit unlike earlier models, as I saw a You Tube video of a removal of the DPF on an earlier Superb and the guy had to remove a driveshaft, disconnect the steering and drop the sub frame? Then had to manoeuvre it out from the top of the car with some difficulty! Apart from the connections to the exhaust, the turbo and exhaust cooler it looks like it's only the pipes and electrical connections then bringing it out from the top? 

 

I also cannot see 'any' difference between the different units with different part numbers for different engine codes etc, they all look pretty much the same to me but then I am not an qualified automobile engineer!

[Ecomatt]

Why not just get the dpf and egr cleaned if it is blocked?

Edited 23 May, 2020 by Ecomatt

[classic]

I don’t know how easy the dpf’s come off, but even if the driveshaft has to be removed that shouldn’t be a big deal. With the oil leaks and timing having been previously out, there’s clearly some unknown history to this engine.

I don’t think there’s any alternative to some serious spannering to get the thing apart and try to get it running right.

[ronnievincent]

Classic, you could be right about some 'unknown history' behind this car. However, if there is, it is not known to Skoda. One of the reasons I bought the car was it was a one owner, contract lease car through the main Skoda Dealer up in the Highlands of Scotland and was serviced by them throughout it's time there. The garage I have used have access to the records (even updated it with the work they did) in addition I have a printout of the service history when it was done. The only unusual item I can find in it's history is that it had a replacement bumper and windscreen at some point which points to some sort of 'accident' on the front end. Also the 'front' EGR valve (this car has 2 parts, one at the back of the engine and one at the front) looks remarkably clean and new? The car looks straight and did drive fine for the last 5 months or so but wonder if something has happened when it had a front impact possibly?

[Tilt]

50 minutes ago, ronnievincent said:

 

. One of the reasons I bought the car was it was a one owner, contract lease car through the main Skoda Dealer up in the Highlands of Scotland and was serviced by them throughout it's time there. 

 

No warranty with it???????????

[classic]

Full history, ran ok for 5 months, not horrendously high mileage.

Going back to the original fault, how bad was it running when you did the vcds scan ?
You had 3 codes on a vcds scan, at that point you were able to drive it 15 miles to your specialist. That specialist found the timing out and major oil leaks. It seems to have gone downhill from there and hasn’t run properly since then and now appears to have a blocked dpf. I hate to say it but your specialist doesn’t sound too convincing with what they’ve done.

I’m wondering if either something like the turbo has failed, dropped parts into the engine, knocked the timing out and the pieces have now lodged in the dpf, blocking it. It’s all guess work until someone who knows what their doing takes it apart. Sorry that’s not much help.

[ronnievincent]

On 24/05/2020 at 11:38, Tilt said:

 

No warranty with it???????????

Tilt, unfortunately no warranty, I did not buy the car from the Skoda dealer but from a car sales with no warranty. I only knew about it because the previous owner (and garage) left all the lease paper work with all the service paperwork.

[ronnievincent]

On 24/05/2020 at 16:01, classic said:

Full history, ran ok for 5 months, not horrendously high mileage.

Going back to the original fault, how bad was it running when you did the vcds scan ?
You had 3 codes on a vcds scan, at that point you were able to drive it 15 miles to your specialist. That specialist found the timing out and major oil leaks. It seems to have gone downhill from there and hasn’t run properly since then and now appears to have a blocked dpf. I hate to say it but your specialist doesn’t sound too convincing with what they’ve done.

I’m wondering if either something like the turbo has failed, dropped parts into the engine, knocked the timing out and the pieces have now lodged in the dpf, blocking it. It’s all guess work until someone who knows what their doing takes it apart. Sorry that’s not much help.

Classic, it really is baffling to me. I know things sort of keep coming back to the work the garage did but in their defence I have used them for sometime, as have other people I know with VAG vehicles, and I am not aware of anybody having any issues with the work they have done. (The taxi / private hire trade around are quite tight so think I would have heard of any problems). In regards to the turbo if there was anything amiss with it I am sure there would be other symptoms showing. I have read that it is not beyond reason that it may not be the DPF that is blocked but that the Catalytic Converter, which on this model I believe sits just before the DPF could have 'collapsed' internally and blocked the system? Going off other information and that it is a 4 x 4 getting the DPF etc off is a massive job! Wondering if I should get it up on stands and see if I can do it myself over a short period of days? One report on a Golf 4 motion is that it took the mechanic a full day just to get it out due to the transfer box and prop shaft for the rear. I am in a position that I could spend a few hours a day slowly dismantling it learning as I go and do what is necessary to remove it and replace it accordingly? I got in touch with the breakers you suggested and they only want £180 plus delivery for the unit off the car they have with the same engine code as mine so may be worth ago. Having said all that I still have this 'feeling' might be missing something obvious? Thanks for all your input / interest

[classic]

1 hour ago, ronnievincent said:Having said all that I still have this 'feeling' might be missing something obvious? Thanks for all your input / interest

That feeling will be a whole lot worse if you spend weeks on it yourself replacing the cat/dpf and it’s no better. 

I would take it to a proper VW group only specialist. It needs methodically diagnosing by someone with experience of these engines.

20+ years ago I was a workshop foreman at a VW/Audi dealer, but am no longer in the trade, I still do a lot of maintenance and repairs on my own stuff and I wouldn’t want to start taking your car apart on stands. These things are stupidly complicated now, you have to wave the white flag with the damn things a lot more often.
A proper specialist with the diagnostic equipment and knowledge will get to the bottom of it and you’ll still have your knuckles intact.

Check out this guide, I think this is your engine type, it does explain how the things work.

http://pics3.tdiclub.com/data/517/820433_EA288.pdf

[ronnievincent]

7 hours ago, classic said:

That feeling will be a whole lot worse if you spend weeks on it yourself replacing the cat/dpf and it’s no better. 

I would take it to a proper VW group only specialist. It needs methodically diagnosing by someone with experience of these engines.

20+ years ago I was a workshop foreman at a VW/Audi dealer, but am no longer in the trade, I still do a lot of maintenance and repairs on my own stuff and I wouldn’t want to start taking your car apart on stands. These things are stupidly complicated now, you have to wave the white flag with the damn things a lot more often.
A proper specialist with the diagnostic equipment and knowledge will get to the bottom of it and you’ll still have your knuckles intact.

Check out this guide, I think this is your engine type, it does explain how the things work.

http://pics3.tdiclub.com/data/517/820433_EA288.pdf

Thanks Classic, like you I spent around 25 years in the motor trade but put the tools away professionally some years ago but still do bits and pieces not only on my vehicles but the family cars as well. As you say car technology has become extremely complicated with the whole raft of sensors and emission controls! I checked out the link which I found really interesting and just looking through a few of the bits and pieces increased my knowledge of both the actual systems and how it sits together. The couple of things that intrigued me was the air intake cooler, which I have been looking at as part of a 2 part EGR valve sitting at the front of the engine and the mention of a 'J88 Exhaust Door' and trying to find out what that does and how it works. Would that being faulty prevent the exhaust gases flowing out? I am considering your suggestion to try and locate a 'Specialist' that if not sort out the issue help to try and identify the root cause, then see if it is worth going on from there. The problem I have is at the moment my other Skoda is also giving issues with the DPF and regeneration so trying to sort both out at the same time! As it's an earlier model it is slightly less complicated but not much. I have had it sorted for a few days but the DPF filter light is back on and cannot get it to regen to reasonable level but will keep at it. No other faults are logged, like EGR etc just the filter light on.

[classic]

Good luck with it, I reckon you’re on the right lines suspecting the blocked dpf.
It’s no help, but I had a 1.6tdi and changed over to the petrol version as I didn’t like the whole dpf setup.
What I do know is the dpf soot and ash levels can be read using diagnostic equipment. Also, I know a truck and tractor mechanic who gets loads of trouble with dpf’s on the modern stuff he fixes. He is convinced that you shouldn’t let these dpf engines idle for long periods, he’s had to educate some farmers to shut things down sooner.