Hey all,

 

Wondering if any of you can offer any advice, or if you've experienced anything similar - my partners octavia (2011) from cold makes an awful death rattle sound, not always but fairly often. It's just been serviced and was doing this noise prior and is still, after. I've been looking online and found a few videos of stretched timing chains on the CAXA lump, but typically only read about failures on the larger higher powered engines. Is there any way to check the chain without disassembling everything, would vcds be of any use in diagnosis of the issue at all? (I don't have it, but a friend does). The noise is very much like the one in this video - 

 

 

Any help would be massively appreciated, the mechanic we use didn't seem keen to investigate the chain as the noise typically, was absent when he had the car for two days. I however, am convinced it's a noisy chain or at that side of the engine.

 

Thank you

It's the chain.

If it starts doing everyday you need to schedule for  replacement.

Usually when car is left not working for 2-3 days  and more the oil drains down so it normally makes that rattle prior to lubrication to reach all parts.

If it will sound in hot starts, then it will immediately need the new kit.

What servicing intervals does owner keep and what oil grades used?

Mine had a similiar sound, but not that loud. One morning the exhaust inspection light came on and took it to a local ”vag specialized” garage. Full timing chain set was changed. Cost was about 990€. After that the rattle stopped. Very common problem in 2009-2012 1.4tsi dsg7.

It has shown to be common problem during years  but there are occasions that have lasted without issues .

These engines need good oil and a preferably 10k km/miles distance  changes (may depend on regions) .

I know locally many owners with such VAG models  engine been over 200k km and still not opened side covers and haven't replaced anything...

Edited 20 February, 20215 yr by AVHreplica

8 hours ago, AVHreplica said:

It's the chain.

If it starts doing everyday you need to schedule for  replacement.

Usually when car is left not working for 2-3 days  and more the oil drains down so it normally makes that rattle prior to lubrication to reach all parts.

If it will sound in hot starts, then it will immediately need the new kit.

What servicing intervals does owner keep and what oil grades used?

 

The car has been serviced yearly, previously she was only doing 4/5k miles a year but this has increased now due to working further away. If it were my car I think I'd want to be changing the oil every six months reading the issues with this engine. I'm tempted to extract the oil and change the filter every six months whilst keeping the yearly visit to the dealer for its annual change. I'm not sure what grade they are using there but assume it would be correct? The first owner of the car had it on long life servicing for the first 30k miles - this probably didn't help! Thank you for your reply.

 

8 hours ago, CozyTony said:

Mine had a similiar sound, but not that loud. One morning the exhaust inspection light came on and took it to a local ”vag specialized” garage. Full timing chain set was changed. Cost was about 990€. After that the rattle stopped. Very common problem in 2009-2012 1.4tsi dsg7.

So far - no EML light has ever been thrown but that's useful to know thank you for your reply

7 hours ago, AVHreplica said:

It has shown to be common problem during years  but there are occasions that have lasted without issues .

These engines need good oil and a preferably 10k km/miles distance  changes (may depend on regions) .

I know locally many owners with such VAG models  engine been over 200k km and still not opened side covers and haven't replaced anything...

Unfortunately I guess for us, we are not the lucky ones where it has lasted! The car has just crossed the 70,000 mile mark which would be good going for a cambelt I guess - shame the 'fit for life' chains aren't fit for life! Thank you for your reply.

We had the same issue with our 122 1.4 TSI Golf 2008. Only did about 7k a year. Occasionally rattled on cold start. Think the chain issue was the twin charger, more powerful engines, as I also read up at the time. The car was written off so it went to the scrapper with very low miles. Always worried me. No issues faced personally.  

Which oil filter have they fitted?

 

There have been cases where the incorrect oil filter is fitted.

 

The correct filter has a non-return valve inside that prevents the oil from flowing back into the sumo when parked up.

 

Without this valve the oil system effectively empties itself and it takes a few seconds to build pressure in the system.

 

Since the tensioner of the chain is tensioned with oil pressure then the chain can go slack until the pressure builds.

18 hours ago, gav_is_con said:

We had the same issue with our 122 1.4 TSI Golf 2008. Only did about 7k a year. Occasionally rattled on cold start. Think the chain issue was the twin charger, more powerful engines, as I also read up at the time. The car was written off so it went to the scrapper with very low miles. Always worried me. No issues faced personally.  

Thank you for this reply! I read more for the twin charged lump, but have seen a youtube video or two with the lower powered caxa lump also!

9 hours ago, Phil-E said:

Which oil filter have they fitted?

 

There have been cases where the incorrect oil filter is fitted.

 

The correct filter has a non-return valve inside that prevents the oil from flowing back into the sumo when parked up.

 

Without this valve the oil system effectively empties itself and it takes a few seconds to build pressure in the system.

 

Since the tensioner of the chain is tensioned with oil pressure then the chain can go slack until the pressure builds.

This is interesting, I don't know currently as the car isn't home but will check this evening and make sure it's the correct part or one listed as suitable for the car. Will report back on this later!

 

Does anyone know if there is a tensioner inspection hole with this engine at all?

I've has this engine from new in a 2009 Octavia though  still only on a very low 59K miles.  It was always noisy (from new) when cold but settles down.

 

There is certainly a 'drain back' issue when it stands for a few days and the noise shown in the video (post 1) occurs very occasionally, but by no means always.

 

I foolishly went with the 2 year dealer servicing at first, although mileage was low. I do my own annual servicing now and it has only ever had VAG oil filters and branded oil, usually Castrol.

The filter part number was originally 03C115561 B on mine, now superceded to J at the end.  The other type listed for CAXA is the D variant now superceded to H.  According to the VAG info:

 

B or J for build dates up to 06.06.2010
D or H for build date from 07.06.2010

 

Who know the difference between them?  They have continued to offer the choice so if only the later one only (D/H) has a none-return valve it is not in theory supposed to be fitted to earlier engines.

 

I was worried about it  when the car was out of warranty but still worth a reasonable amount (say years 4 to 7) but less so now at 11 years.

Hope this helps.

Rich

 

 

18 hours ago, richhol said:

I've has this engine from new in a 2009 Octavia though  still only on a very low 59K miles.  It was always noisy (from new) when cold but settles down.

 

There is certainly a 'drain back' issue when it stands for a few days and the noise shown in the video (post 1) occurs very occasionally, but by no means always.

 

I foolishly went with the 2 year dealer servicing at first, although mileage was low. I do my own annual servicing now and it has only ever had VAG oil filters and branded oil, usually Castrol.

The filter part number was originally 03C115561 B on mine, now superceded to J at the end.  The other type listed for CAXA is the D variant now superceded to H.  According to the VAG info:

 

B or J for build dates up to 06.06.2010
D or H for build date from 07.06.2010

 

Who know the difference between them?  They have continued to offer the choice so if only the later one only (D/H) has a none-return valve it is not in theory supposed to be fitted to earlier engines.

 

I was worried about it  when the car was out of warranty but still worth a reasonable amount (say years 4 to 7) but less so now at 11 years.

Hope this helps.

Rich

 

 

Hey Rich,

 

Thanks for the reply, the noise occurs quite often on her car certainly with enough frequency to cause alarm. After checking her engine a minute ago, it has a bosch filter fitted, part number is F 026 407 181 though I can't find any mention of any valve fitted or indeed not fitted, to this particular filter. I was hoping to find some guide to a rough check of the chain condition through vcds as I know someone who has it, and has offered to let me use it - so far no such luck though! When the guy had the car to service it, he was unable to see a bung to inspect the tensioner length which was disappointing. 

I think that's the wrong filter.

 

I've looked on a parts site and for the newer OE number the Bosch part number F 026 407 183 shows up but not with 181 on the end.

 

If I put the old number in then both 181 and 183 show up.

 

There's no mention of the valve for the 181 but under 183 it mentions it's fitted with the valve.

+1 

If Mike's car is 2012 then the VAG ..H type appears correct which equates to Bosch ..183.

 

The wider issue of VAG (+ Bosch)  continuing to supply 2 types suggests that they are not inter-changeable.  If the later one has a none-return valve why can it not be fitted to earlier cars.?...presumably something was also changed on the engine in June 2010 (this comment relates to my vehicle being an earlier one rather than Mike's later one).

 

Rich

Just been out to check mine now as the garage we bought it from did an oil and filter change before we bought it.

 

It's a 2012 CAXA and they've fitted a Mann W712/94 filter. And under the description of it states that it has 2 non-return valves! Why 2?! Lol

 

Anyway it seems it's the right filter and it makes no funny noises at startup.

Again Mann still offer two (earlier/later cars) meaning they are not interchangeable....but both show 2 none-return valves.

 

If you put the 2 pictures side-by-side for Mann W712/93 and W712/94 the bit that mates with the engine does look different (red arrow).

 

Edited 24 February, 20215 yr by richhol
Typo

On 22/02/2021 at 19:11, Phil-E said:

I think that's the wrong filter.

 

I've looked on a parts site and for the newer OE number the Bosch part number F 026 407 183 shows up but not with 181 on the end.

 

If I put the old number in then both 181 and 183 show up.

 

There's no mention of the valve for the 181 but under 183 it mentions it's fitted with the valve.

 

On 23/02/2021 at 14:51, richhol said:

+1 

If Mike's car is 2012 then the VAG ..H type appears correct which equates to Bosch ..183.

 

The wider issue of VAG (+ Bosch)  continuing to supply 2 types suggests that they are not inter-changeable.  If the later one has a none-return valve why can it not be fitted to earlier cars.?...presumably something was also changed on the engine in June 2010 (this comment relates to my vehicle being an earlier one rather than Mike's later one).

 

Rich

Gents, thank you both for your replies - this is interesting and could potentially be the issue - I've just put the reg in the DVLA vehicle checker to try and ascertain the correct date but I'm not sure how much I can rely on this information? - 

 

Vehicle Details
Vehicle make    SKODA
Date of first registration    February 2011
Year of manufacture    2011

Would this put it in the needing a non return filter category, or not needing one?

 

On 23/02/2021 at 16:11, Phil-E said:

Just been out to check mine now as the garage we bought it from did an oil and filter change before we bought it.

 

It's a 2012 CAXA and they've fitted a Mann W712/94 filter. And under the description of it states that it has 2 non-return valves! Why 2?! Lol

 

Anyway it seems it's the right filter and it makes no funny noises at startup.

 

I was put off this engine based on hers but when it's running it seems to run pretty well and isn't a bad performer if you wind it up - certainly no vrs, but more than adequate for her going to work and back and a lovely place to be compared to her old renault I love my BKD lump but it's completely the wrong engine for my usage now!

 

18 hours ago, richhol said:

Again Mann still offer two (earlier/later cars) meaning they are not interchangeable....but both show 2 none-return valves.

 

If you put the 2 pictures side-by-side for Mann W712/93 and W712/94 the bit that mates with the engine does look different (red arrow).

 

Sorry for the delay in replying gents, work has been hectic of late! Thank you so much for all your detective work!

I figured enough deliberating over this - I've ordered one from the Skoda dealership in town - will pick it up on my way to work and post back with the part number I'm given! 

Hey all,

 

The part number on this filter is 03C 115 561 H! Looks like the fitted filter is the wrong one :/ Do I tell the garage this or just leave it be? Will fit shortly! Thanks so much for all your help!

I'll cross my fingers that it helps.

 

I'd certainly let the garage that fitted it know. If nothing else but to bring their attention to it so they don't do it again.

On 25/02/2021 at 20:42, Phil-E said:

I'll cross my fingers that it helps.

 

I'd certainly let the garage that fitted it know. If nothing else but to bring their attention to it so they don't do it again.

So far, so good! I'm very tempted to extract the oil and put some fresh in as the invoice doesn't state the grade filled. I'm assuming the Castrol LL 5-30w is the correct one? Always a bit concerned about the recommendation from online motor factors. I believe 502 00 is the correct vw grade?

 

Thank you all, so much!

That's good to hear! Glad you got it sorted.

 

The 5w30 LL is the correct stuff.

 

It's the Long Life (flexible schedule) oil but perfectly suitable for fixed servicing too. Just has additional additives.

 

502 is the fixed interval oil. 504 is also suitable for fixed.

 

Do you have the car on fixed or variable?

7 hours ago, Phil-E said:

That's good to hear! Glad you got it sorted.

 

The 5w30 LL is the correct stuff.

 

It's the Long Life (flexible schedule) oil but perfectly suitable for fixed servicing too. Just has additional additives.

 

502 is the fixed interval oil. 504 is also suitable for fixed.

 

Do you have the car on fixed or variable?

Hey Phil,

 

I previously owned a rover turbo which had the oil changed every 4-5k, I don't go much on this long life servicing malarky myself.... can't see how oil at nearly 20,000 miles old is nearly as good as oil at 10,000. From now on, I think I may get it serviced at the garage once a year and perhaps switch the stuff out myself every six months. Her mileage has increased massively between locations now and so I want to know it's running around on the best oil state it can be! 

 

Will get some oil tomorrow and suck the fairly fresh stuff out... think of it as an engine flush I guess!

 

Thank you so much, to you, and all for your help!

Just to throw a spanner in the works, when Skoda last serviced it - they put 5/40 in it! No idea which to go with now :| 

Edited 3 March, 20215 yr by -mike-

5W30 is the standard stuff but different grades can also be used.

 

The main thing is as long as it's meets the VW 504 type numbers then it should be fine.

Think I'll wait until this oil has a few k on it and then change the filter and extract the oil. Half tempted to extract the oil and not change the filter given it's done all of 300 miles on this filter but something tells me that would be frowned upon!  Thanks Phil.

Hey all!

 

Quick update, the noise returned very shortly after the new filter so I assumed the worst and booked it in for checking. Long and short of that is - the complete timing assembly was renewed and now there is no more tapping at all on cold starts! However, the car has now developed a new issue where it will not idle smoothly, with the revs flitting between as low as 560 rpm and 640 rpm. You can stabilise this behaviour somewhat by putting on a high load consumer like the AC. Car has plenty of power (I think..... feels flat compared to my bkd but I guess it would with a flat torque curve), but will not keep a smooth idle. The plugs were changed when the timing chain was done, misfire is mainly showing on cylinder 4 in vcds but will sometimes count one on another cylinder. Does anyone have any ideas what might be causing this? Going to take the car back to the garage that did the work on Friday, the idle was previously smooth whereas now you get a backside massage at times! Ignition timing also has quite some swing which I assume is it trying to stabilise the idle?

Thank you :)