electric windows update

[TWINY]

Hi All

Having done the job in my last post the windows worked until yesterday. (8/4/21)

I went out to work and we had some rain over night. This is the first rain since my fix.

The windows didn't work. Where I parked  at work the car had a good spell of sun shine on it

and when I got in the car to go home they were working again.

 

Last night we have had some more rain and sure enough the windows are not working again.

So as others have said I think its safe to say its down to damp some where affecting the electrics.

But Where ?

Having spoken to my brother who has a lot more knowledge of electronics than I have.

I think the door switch works by switching the earth. Then the pcb does its magic.

He has suggested to remove the earth wires from the engine and body under the bonnet

and give them a clean as the water my make a resistance on the earth side of the circuit.

and if these cables have corrosion at there contact points it could cores this problem.

This is only a theory but worth a look at.

 

So I am going to do this and see if it has any affect. 

I will post my results sometime in the near future.

 

[TWINY]

Hi All

Just to say what I have done again but still not fixed the problem.

 

Having had both window motors apart and cleaned them still not fixed the problem.

What I have found is that if I disconnect the loom from the motor and reconnect it they start working again.

After a short time they  just stop operating.

After they had stopped again I disconnected the earth lead of the battery. When reconnected they worked for a shot time then 

just stopped. 

At one point after getting them going I went to the car wash and they still worked on the way home. went and had a coffee back out to the car and they had stopped again. 

I know this subject has been covered a lot and it is still my theory that this is down to a earth problem  but as to where I am at loss'

Also at no point have I had a fuse blow.

The only thing I can say is that after warming up the pcb they did work for a longer period until it rained. As to why don`t really know.

This site has been of great help to me so Just wanted to add what I have tried even though there is not a fix.

 

  

[Breezy_Pete]

I'm trying to gain an understanding of these problems and haven't made much progress yet, but I did find one interesting thing at the weekend.

On the one I was playing with (PN 6Y2959802 from a late mk1 Fabia), if I powered just the main permanent 12V connection relative to its earth (the fattest two wires) it drew a current of around 27mA at 12.5V...for a while.

After exactly ten minutes it 'went to sleep' and the current reading dropped below what the PSU could display (less that 1mA).

 

If I also gave it a 12V supply on a pin which would normally get an ignition 12V feed (6-way connector pin 2) it draws a little more quiescent current (33mA approx.) and doesn't go to sleep after ten minutes.

As these units aren't on the CAN bus, and only have data connections via LIN bus with each other, it may be that this is a feed that tells the unit "hey you need to be awake and ready for action". I imagine - but haven't yet demonstrated - that without this awake state the thing will do nothing and ignore any input from the switches.

 

 

If you tell me what year your Roomster is I'll look up which pin and wire colour the equivalent feed is on your car, if there is one.  

 

Consider cleaning the pins of the module connector too, rather than anything more 'distant'.

 

 

[TWINY]

Hi Wino

 

My car is a mk11 07 plate

 

I only know basic stuff my self and have been on the phone to my brother who has a better understanding of electrics.

While I understand what you are telling me with it going to sleep and not waking up again. That describes what is happening until

I take the wires off then reconnect.

The CAN BUS and the LIN BUS is where my understanding stops but do understand what you mean with the mA.

 

I have cleaned all the connection points on the motors both with electrical spray and wet&dry paper and also fuses.

Am I write saying these faults come with age?

Also do you think this could come from the ignition switch contacts of the back of what you say about giving it a 12v feed and 

it doesn't go to sleep? When ignition is in the off position.

What I cant get my head around is how this problem arises when moisture is present.

Thanks for your reply

[Breezy_Pete]

Only just seen your reply. Check fuse 11 as a first step, it is in series with the ignition switched supply, and goes to the window motor via a black/blue wire from pin 7 of the 28-way at the A-pillar to pin 2 of the 6-way at the motor module (drivers side).

You may be able to back-probe that connection at the window motor module and hopefully see 12V there when the ignition is on. Or unplug it and measure at the mating face. 

[TWINY]

Hi Wino

Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

I have cleaned and checked fuse 11 which was ok.

Will test voltage as you suggest at the weekend .

The only thing that I haven't now done is change the relay and capacitor on the pcb

that I have seen being suggested to be done ,what do you think?

Thanks Rob

[Breezy_Pete]

Hi Rob. The electrolytic (tall can) capacitor is powered 24/7/365 so could be worth replacing. Relay will be trickier to replace but worth a try if you can source one and have the necessary tools/skills. 

[TWINY]

Hi Wino

 

Change of plan weather is lovely so decided to have another look at the car.

To keep this short as I can will just cover what has a cured and what I have done again.

If you recall I warmed up the pcb and it lasted about four days then we had rain and it failed again.

With this in mind I thought I would give it another go and see if it had the same affect.

This time I got it a little to warm and the pins housed in the black plastic block that is soldered to board fell off.

(to be clear this is where the block connectors from the loom attach to the motor. Drivers side)

Also the capacitor nearly fell off to'

 

So got my solder kit out and cleaned out all the holes on the board where this block attaches, using the sucker gun

that I didn't know I had as its only a basic kit.

I reconnected and soldered it back on. with nothing to loose i refitted it to the car. Low and be hold all is working as it should again 

even the left window. For how long who knows.

 

With this in mind you said you were playing with PN 6Y2959802  perhaps you could try and melt the solder on each pin to re establish each connection

and see if you get any  result . Or on the capacitor first as I have done both at the same time by accident so don`t know which may of worked if at all.

My theory is that it has reconnected something that tells it to wake up as you have said.

Having had a result twice now I think its down to something with the pcb but cant say exactly what.

It would be really nice to get to the bottom of this .As I have said I am more mechanical than electrical so If this fails again will try replacing capacitor first then relay if I can.

Rob

 

[TWINY]

Sorry forgot to say the only thing is that the windows will not open or shut of the fob'

But everything else is as it should be.

Rob

[Breezy_Pete]

Nice one Rob, that's something to have a damn good look at.  I guess vibration of the loom connector and/or slamming of the door could stress those solder joints.

 

Will have a look at mine under the microscope.

Just now, TWINY said:

the windows will not open or shut of the fob'

Did they ever?

[TWINY]

Actually I don`t know never  tried it only going off what I have read.

Please let me know how you get on.

[TWINY]

Hi Wino

 

Some more feed back for you. Hope i`m not tempting fate here.

 

We have had a couple of frosty mornings since my last post with a lot of moisture on the windows.

I am pleased to report windows going up and down still. Off both right door and left door switches.

How ever. After getting over my excitement of them actually working .

Working as they should  is not strictly true.

 

Both right & left door switches operate in reverse. ( To be clear lift the switch window goes down' Push the switch down window goes up )

Also if you lock the drivers door with the key and hold the key in the locked position window goes  down. Window goes up if you hold the key in the open position.

I believe it should operate the other way around?

Also the two stages of the switch does not work they just go up or down when using the switch and stop when you release the switch.

 

I believe this next bit is correct operation and is how they are operating .

 

Unlock the car windows don`t operate.

Insert the key into the ignition turn ignition on with doors open or shut windows operate''

With doors shut turn ignition off windows operate for ten minutes then stop until you turn the ignition on again

How ever if you turn the ignition off and open the door they will not operate and this also cancels the ten minute operation time.

Turn ignition on they work again.

 

I am going to live with how they are operating to see how long they last.

As at least they are working at the moment. 

Interested to know your thoughts on this.

Thanks

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Rob, thanks for the update, interesting indeed.

I've heard of this 'wrong way round' operation before but not experienced it.

 

I received a small parcel in the post today which is a drivers side window switch and lock/unlock button set. First thing planned is to measure the resistances that get switched in between the various connector pins as the switches are operated in all their positions.  Maybe we can compare those numbers to what yours does at the moment?  

 

I'm aiming to build a full bench-top system, I think.  The motor module I have is from a member here, and believed to be faulty, so it'll be fun to see if I can work out exactly how/why.  

 

 

[TWINY]

Hi Wino

 

At the moment now I have it working I would like to leave it alone to see what happens.

Also my skill level to do as you suggest is not the best but would have ago.

Another thought I had is there are issues I have seen about door locks failing.

Does the window pcb have anything to do with door lock operation as well ?

[TWINY]

The other thought I had about the switches operating in reverse is.

 

I removed both motors to clean them.

On the end of the armature is a worm screw could these be handed ?

I don`t think I did but I could have put the right motor on the left and left on the right.

Just the motors not the part that bolts to door they are handed.

Again don`t want to mess at this point to prove the point.

 

[Breezy_Pete]

There are at least two connections from the driver's side door lock unit that go to the window module, the 'door open' signal and the key position sensing. The door open signal also goes to the onboard supply control unit, for its purposes to do with interior lighting control and probably other things. The key position info is also hardwired through to the Central Convenience control unit that deals with the locking stuff, for obvious reasons.

 

The former is presumably related to the behaviour you noted above about the window operation ceasing when the door is opened after ignition off, the latter is what allows the 'key held round each way' window opening/shutting, I guess.

 

The door open microswitch connects pin 8 of the lock module to earth (pin 7) when the door is open, and doesn't when the door is closed.

The key position signal comes out on pin 4 of the lock module. It is shorted to earth when/while the key is held in the 'lock' position, and is connected to earth via a 180 Ohm resistor when held the other way. When the key isn't turned either way, it doesn't connect to anything, I think.

 

I like your idea about the worm screws but I think it probably isn't that, as I've heard it described a few times and doubt that others have simultaneously had both motors in bits.

Did you clean the commutators/gaps?

 

[Breezy_Pete]

The fact that you get the same 'backwards' operation via key in lock and the switch panel suggests to my little brain that it can't be either of those external things at fault, but must be something within the window module, too much of a coincidence otherwise.

[Breezy_Pete]

If you operate the passenger side window from its local switch does that also go the opposite way to expected?

[edbostan]

Reading this about electric windows this has happened since new. When  the windows are half open and I lift the window switch the to close the windows always goes  fully down and then I lift the switch again for the window to full close. This not only happens on the driver's side but also on the passengers and it annoys my wife as closing the window is a two-finger lift operation. After 8 years I have got used to it.

[TWINY]

Hi edbostan

 

Sorry to you and wino. I had a call yesterday and had to go out quickly.

 

Thanks for your info. Like you I am going to get used to the way they are now working

in the hope they continue to do so.

Just can`t understand why they are now doing this after what I have done.

Thanks Rob

[TWINY]

Hi Wino

 

Left door switch works the same as right door switch and key operation

 

Cleaned both commutators with electrical spray and soft brush.

Right  commutator was very clean to be honest.

left commutator was green in color like corrosion from moisture on connections open to the atmosphere

if that makes sense .

Both commutators showed sines of wear.

Both were dirty on the armature where the brushes make contact. To be expected I suppose .

In side both doors were very good on the parts I could see just dust.

 

A lot of very valid posts have been made about other faults that make the windows fail.

This has helped me eliminate other problems to arrive at this point.

I am going to let things take there coarse now and see what happens.

Thanks to all on briskoda past and present for your posts.

 

On a personnel note thanks for your input wino I have learnt a lot and enjoyed working through this with you.

I appreciate you taking the time and the information.

 

I would be interested to know what you find with the project you are doing regarding these window problems.

Thanks Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

2 hours ago, TWINY said:

Left door switch works the same as right door switch and key operation

 

Cheers, but just so I'm sure I know what you mean...the switch in the left door for the left window?, or the switch in the right door for the left window? If this makes no sense it's probably because a Roomster has a different layout of controls than what I'm used to.

 

I have now measured the resistances that the switches in the drivers door 'offer' to the motor module.  This is an aftermarket switch module to suit a late mk1 Fabia, doubt it will be much different to a genuine one, or a Roomster one.

 

Both passenger and driver's side switch in the drivers door offer the same selection of four options. 

1. Press switch down to the first detent - 150 Ohms to earth

2. Press switch fully down - short/0 Ohms to earth

3. Pull switch up to first detent - 1.8k Ohms to earth

4. Pull switch up fully - 530 Ohms  to earth.

 

They go to different pins on the motor module, driver's side switch to pin 7 of the 8-way connector on a black/green wire, passenger side switch goes to pin 1 of the 6-way on a white/black wire.

Next task is to look at the circuitry inside the motor module that deals with these inputs.

 

Thanks for your valuable contributions to my investigations Rob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TWINY]

Hi Wino

 

The window switch on the front passenger door ( single switch )

Lift the switch up window goes down.  ( Passenger window only operates )

Push the switch down window goes up'( passenger window only  operates )

 

The switch on the front drivers door  (double switch )

If you sit in the drivers seat.

The left part of this switch operates passenger window only

Lift up window goes down.

Push down window goes up.

The right side of this switch operates drivers window only

Lift up window goes down

Push down windows goes up.

 

Both rear door windows operate manually on my vehicle.

 

If you lock or unlock  the drivers door with the key

 

If you hold the key against the locked position both passenger and drivers door windows go down 

If you hold the key against the open position both passenger and drivers windows go up.

 

As Edbostan said I can get used to this. 

 

Hope this helps.

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Very helpful once again, thanks.  

Bloody odd though. I thought the passenger side would still manage to get its own actions right from its local switch even if the driver's side system is all muddled up.

 

[TWINY]

Hi All

 

Some days have now passed where we have had some cold mornings boarder line freezing.

One night of rain and through the following morning and one morning with a hard frost.

Touch wood I am pleased to report windows are still working.

 

With the knowledge of what I have done . If I started this job from the start point I would re solder the capacitor first the try the pcb.

If that hadn't worked I would re solder the big connector .

As I have said these Items were re soldered at the same time so I don't know which one may of helped to get them working again.

I can only say this has worked for me so far.

 

It would be interesting if someone has an old motor unit that they could repeat this and see if they get the same result?

Please let me know what result you get because I would hope this helps others.

I look forward to hearing off anyone.

Thanks Rob