Almost new Kodiaq - strange “rattling” sound when disengaging clutch after a quick acceleration while in 1st gear or reverse

[nnever]

Hello,

 

First off, my vehicle info:

Model: Škoda  KODIAQ Business 1.5 TSI ACT, 110 kW / 150 KS

Transmission: Manual 6 gear

Model: NS73N51B

Manufacturing year: 02/2021

Kilometers: 7.300

 

The vehicle was bought brand new in April this year. Up to today, only 7.300 km done.

Lately I have stared to notice a strange “rattling” sound (like “tk-tk-tk-tk-tk…”) in certain circumstances while disengaging a clutch while in fast acceleration in first gear or reverse. It is getting louder and louder, and I am getting worried.

 

I investigated the occurrence of this sound and have now established a certain way of reproducing it. Here are the steps of an action when it occurs every single time:

1. Vehicle is standing still.

2. Vehicle is starting movement in first gear or reverse (same either way), with a stronger gas pressing (more RPM), like for instance when I want to climb a curb, or get moving faster quickly. Clutch is in this step being disengaged of course.

3. Immediately following previous step, if I need to stop the vehicle quickly (or reduce acceleration), I release the gas pedal and engage the clutch (brake can be engaged or not, it does not matter). When I engage the clutch in this step, I hear this strong loud vibrating “rattling” sound coming from the front of the vehicle. It is heard louder outside than inside the vehicle.  

 

This action is not often performed in normal driving conditions, and it is typical when climbing a curb while parking, or in heavy city traffic when there is a lot of start-stop combined with a stronger foot on a gas pedal. So, it can easily be overlooked if these circumstances are not part of your driving experience.

 

Since it is getting worse, and since the car is almost new with only about 7.300 km, I resoluted to get it look at and sorted out under warranty. I went to my local Skoda Service partner and had the vehicle inspected. They replicated the problematic “sound” without any problems following above steps, and where puzzled as to what to do next, and where to start the diagnostics. They immediately phoned Skoda technical representative and were given an answer that Skoda is aware of the occurrence of this sound in these circumstances, and that the cause is (I quote) “state of series in this kind of transmission make and model”. It is a result of (I quote) “resonating vibration from inside the transmission”. They further explained that it is not considered a defect or malfunction on their behalf, but rather a normal operation of a transmission (gear box), and that no further action is needed.

 

I was appalled by this explanation, and insisted on an official documenting of this problem, with an official record and written answer, for which I am now waiting to get.

How can this be "state of series operation" when it was not present at the time I bought the car, and it is getting worse and worse with more millage?! 

 

Following the phone call to Skoda, my Service Shop dealer did nothing further but document the problem and forward it to Skoda. Their personal opinion is that the transmission needs replacing, but they can not do anything further warranty wise until it is approved by Skoda and recognized as a system defect.

I am now waiting for an official written answer from Skoda Service Headquarters (I am probably lacking a better name here) …

 

In the meanwhile, I would appreciate any second or fresh opinion, or advice, either recommending what to further investigate that could be the cause of this problem (since I an not entirely convinced it is a gear box and that the diagnostic was correct in the first place) or recommending how to legally approach this situation further if I get dismissed by Skoda Service and Warranty.

 

I am also posting a short video that explains the problem best, and how it should not be (in my opinion) disregarded,

[DaveMiller]

I don't know what the problem is, sorry, but I think (from the video) it is serious enough not to drive the car. 
If it happened to mine, I would call Skoda Assist, and have them come to it. If they can't fix it, I'd want them to provide a loan car. Can you do that in Croatia?
 

[nnever]

Well, I can call Skoda Assist, but I would end up being handeled by the same Service Shop Skoda that I went to today in Zagreb Croatia, which inspected the car and told me they got an answer from Skoda Headquaters that this is "within normal operation of this particular transmission". How would I then ask for either repair or replacement vehicle when they do not acknowledge that something is faulty?

[olderman1]

Can you take it to an independent garage for another opinion ? If they agree that there is a problem, ask them to write a report stating there's a fault and then present that to your dealer and demand they fix it.

If they refuse, you may have grounds to reject the car or get a replacement, but it's always difficult answering questions from abroad because we don't know what terms and conditions Skoda offer in other countries, or what legal channels you can use to help you.

At the very least, demand that Skoda themselves or your dealer write you a signed statement that you have brought this to their attention and that they have said that there is no fault, or the noise is normal.

That way, you should have legal redress if it gets worse or breaks in the future..

I agree with Dave Miller above and if that was my car I'd be very worried.

[DaveMiller]

Has the dealer, and Skoda headquarters, actually seen that video?

[nnever]

After my first post, I did take the car to an independent garage (my previous car's Opel shop). They confirmed the sound is coming from the gear box and said it happens when the clutch is released while the engine (gear box) is stressed (when accelerating rapidly from stand still, or climbing on an opsticle). They concluded that the cogwheel in the transmission when released by clutch while under heavy load needs time to "stress out" and in this short period it produces this sound by vibrating around its axis until it settles. I know it is not the most technical explanation, but it is better then the one Skoda Service gave me (which was none actualy).

 

In any case, they said it is not normal by any standards (especially for a new car with only 7.300 km) and the gear box (transmission) should be replaced under warranty. But this independent Service shop is not in any way releted to Skoda and they do not have any authority to issue any kind of document that would mean anything to Skoda or have any legal weight. It is just their opinion given to me personaly out of courtesy. Of course they won't open the engine of a car under warranty to investigate further.

 

As for Skoda Service, I did ask for an official document in writing to say this is by their account normal behavior (as was their today's answer to me). I am waiting for this document now, but in the meantime investigating my further options and taking advice.

[nnever]

15 minutes ago, DaveMiller said:

Has the dealer, and Skoda headquarters, actually seen that video?

 

Your guess is as good as mine, I was told that when explained to them on the phone, they knew straight away about this problem with this type of transmission which is according to their account not a problem but normal behavior within tolerence parameters. The Service dealership reprentative told me the recording was sent to them.

[skomaz]

That is very strange and definitely an issue.  It almost sounds to me like a loose / failing Clutch / DMF or similar, potentially catching the gearbox casing as it's released?  Our 1.4 tsi manual certainly doesn't sound like that!

[J.R.]

When I read your descrition I thought nobody should use a lot of acceleration when mounting a kerb in first gear, doing so & then declutching rapidly might well cause transmission snatch as the torque wind up is released.

 

I could also understand the response of Skoda regarding transmission noise in neutral being a characteristic but that is where resonance causes chatter at idle in the constant mesh gearset on a hot transmission, I would have answered your question why did it not do it from new with "as the gearbox beds in and the oil becomes less viscous the clearances increase"

 

However the video leaves no doubt in my mind, that sound is a harbinger of impeding transmission failure and I would be as concerned and angry as you are.

 

It could be a communication problem, the dealer describes a noise perhaps not well, the Skoda technician perhaps doesn't listen attetively as he thinks he already knows what the problem is and trots out the party line of "its a characteristic" I cannot believe he would maintain that stance if he viewed the video.

 

 

Edited 1 October, 2021 by J.R.

[DaveMiller]

I agree with J.R.  Perhaps the problem is not being understood.  I suggest you email the video direct to the “dealer principal” of the company where you bought it.

Or present the car at the dealer’s and take the service manager for a ride to show the problem?

[nnever]

15 minutes ago, J.R. said:

When I read your descrition I thought nobody should use a lot of acceleration when mounting a kerb in first gear, doing so & then declutching rapidly might well cause transmission snatch as the torque wind up is released.

 

I could also understand the response of Skoda regarding transmission noise in neutral being a characteristic but that is where resonance causes chatter at idle in the constant mesh gearset on a hot transmission, I would have answered your question why did it not do it from new with "as the gearbox beds in and the oil becomes less viscous the clearances increase"

 

However the video leaves no doubt in my mind, that sound is a harbinger of impeding transmission failure and I would be as concerned and angry as you are.

 

It could be a communication problem, the dealer describes a noise perhaps not well, the Skoda technician perhaps doesn't listen attetively as he thinks he already knows what the problem is and trots out the party line of "its a characteristic" I cannot believe he would maintain that stance if he viewed the video.

 

 

 

Thank you for a very informed and thought out response. Everything you said makes perfect sense. All I can do is wait and see what an "official" written answer will be, hoping the video that I forwarded to my Servise Partner will reach the people in charge with knowledge.

 

As for accelerating in first gear when climbing a curb, I add as much (or as little) as needed to step on it, not more excessive than needed. And the sound is still well heard. I have 20 years of driving experience with my previous car done about 200.000 km over 15 years without any repair needed other than scheduled oil, belt and brake disks exchange.

Above video is an exaggeration, not even close to my normal driving style, but I purposely recorded it while driving like that to make the point of when and how the rattling is exibited.

[nnever]

24 minutes ago, DaveMiller said:

I agree with J.R.  Perhaps the problem is not being understood.  I suggest you email the video direct to the “dealer principal” of the company where you bought it.

Or present the car at the dealer’s and take the service manager for a ride to show the problem?

 

I am having trouble finding direct Skoda Service contatcs other than those in my country, which already had car in inspection. Any help here, please?

 

What is appaling is that the Skoda Service mechanic in Zagreb didn't find an answer he got on the phone as "communication error" and accepted it without the urge to better explain. He drove the car around the parking and heard the same thing that is on the video, and was not compelled to escalate the issue. He even told me to be prepared to "live with it".

[Routemaster1461]

51 minutes ago, DaveMiller said:

I agree with J.R.  Perhaps the problem is not being understood.  I suggest you email the video direct to the “dealer principal” of the company where you bought it.

Or present the car at the dealer’s and take the service manager for a ride to show the problem?

 

If they say 'they all do that', ask them to demonstrate.

[nnever]

5 minutes ago, Routemaster1461 said:

 

If they say 'they all do that', ask them to demonstrate.

 

They didn't say "all", but rather that "it has already been documented". 

[J.R.]

On reflection I am swaying towards it being a clutch DMF problem and not transmission.

 

In the video the transmission would be the definite suspect but in the scenario you describe,-  slowly driving up a kerb using just enough power to do so then declutching with first gear still engaged there would be no rotation of the transmission as the vehicle would be at a virtual standstill.

 

Try to replicate it by taking up the drive with the handbrake still engaged & then quickly declutching.

[nnever]

5 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Try to replicate it by taking up the drive with the handbrake still engaged & then quickly declutching.

 

This has been tried as I witnessed in the independed shop I visited just after the Skoda Shop, and yes, the same sound was heard.

[skomaz]

1 hour ago, nnever said:

 

This has been tried as I witnessed in the independed shop I visited just after the Skoda Shop, and yes, the same sound was heard.

 

To me that shows its not the gearbox but a dmf issue.  Others may be better placed to comment though...

[J.R.]

Agreed.

[nnever]

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

Try to replicate it by taking up the drive with the handbrake still engaged & then quickly declutching.

 

Sorry, maybe I missunderstood, so just to make sure... When you say "taking up the drive with handbrake engaged...", do you mean to turn on handbrake, then engage (press) the clutch, shift into 1st gear, add gas by slowly releasing the clutch, and then quickly engaging (pressing) the clutch just before the car stalls? 

Because now that I read your post again, the last part of your sentence "quickly declutching" confused me. Declutching would normaly mean to release the clutch, but I think you meant the opposite, it makes no sense otherwise. Or am I missundestanding you completely?

[DaveMiller]

 We’re getting a bit confused in the wording, that’s all.

 

Normally, pushing the pedal down is “DISengaging” the clutch.  (The clutch being the mechanism near the gearbox, not the pedal.  When you’re not pressing the pedal, drive is engaged.)

 

Allowing the pedal back up is “engaging” the clutch, or “releasing” the clutch.

 

“Declutching” means to press the pedal down.

Edited 2 October, 2021 by DaveMiller

[nnever]

1 hour ago, DaveMiller said:

 We’re getting a bit confused in the wording, that’s all.

 

Normally, pushing the pedal down is “DISengaging” the clutch.  (The clutch being the mechanism near the gearbox, not the pedal.  When you’re not pressing the pedal, drive is engaged.)

 

Allowing the pedal back up is “engaging” the clutch, or “releasing” the clutch.

 

“Declutching” means to press the pedal down.

 

OK, i taught the wording engage-disengage the clutch meant the opposite. Most googled answers have it wrong as well. But in fact this is confused with the clutch pedal. So engaging (pressing) the clutch pedal in fact disengages the clutch itself. Makes perfect sense of course.

Most people (including me up until now) have this two wording mixed up.

[SurreyJohn]

I think, (and it’s guessing from video) is not a gear, but a loose rotating part, possibly part of Flywheel.  But might be a bearing that is disintegrating.

 

It is not normal, and has to be manufacturing fault as these parts should not fall apart after 7200km (about 4500 miles)

 

[nnever]

Ok, I did some further testing just now...

 

First off, I myself tried the test J.R. recommended (starting in 1st and disengaging clutch - pressing clutch pedal while the handbrake is on). As suspected, the rattling sound is clearly heard.

 

Second test was recording while normal driving from 1st gear start to 2nd gear and then to 3rd gear. The sound is heard every time I press the clutch pedal to change gears. It is heard less when going from 2nd to 3rd, since the DMF is under less stress, but it can clearly be heard with the window open and no other ambient sound present. Sound is louder if I press the clutch pedal more quickly (for instance while parking, during quick start-stop, or in case of emergency braking). 

 

I am attaching videos from these tests.

 

So, after these tests, upon further reading, and after valuable advices from forum members in this topic, the main suspect in my mind is now clutch DMF. Does everyone agree? Are there any further suggestions?

 

It is beyond reason, that I myself with the help of the forum members and internet reading need to do this kind of diagnostics (24 hours ago I had very limited knowledge of the car engine workings), while an official Skoda Service Partner had to make a phone call to higher-up level of regional Skoda Technical Service, and was served an answer (acceptable behavior of gearbox) which he bluntly accepted and dismissed my case.

And he had a car on a test drive and in the garage shop for about an hour! 

 

If and when I do get a proper diagnostic and warranty acceptance, I now feel less than comfortable to leave my car is such "capable" hands for what seems a rather complicated repair.

  

Edited 2 October, 2021 by nnever

[nnever]

Two videos were brought to my attention:

 

 

 

 

Both videos show EXACTLY the same issue (sound) as described in my case.

 

All got the same answer as me...

 

Comments under the videos report the same behavior in VW, Skoda and Audi.

 

 

 

Edited 4 October, 2021 by nnever

[J.R.]

The guy in the last video has the same suspicions as I do now having heard all of them, turbo wastegate chatter, the chavs around here pay a fortune to modify theirs to sound like sh1te and for people to hopefully look at them, they have had to adopt their driving technique to do the decelleration/declutch every 10 yards, one has one that makes a spooky whooshing howling noise.

 

It was his underbonnet audio recording that convinced me, his subtitles suggest the turbo.

 

I am guessing and I hope someone will confirm/deny/explain that the boost pressure is bled off when you declutch to change gear but not if you simply decellerate.

Edited 4 October, 2021 by J.R.