I understand how the system operates and the charging profiles dependant on battery type.

 

Thank you for your confirmation that the vehicle will still accurately measure voltage, current and temperature and will not transmit false readings if a battery has been changed and the recoding not done.

 

 

3 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Thank you for your confirmation that the vehicle will still accurately measure voltage, current and temperature and will not transmit false readings if a battery has been changed and the recoding not done.

As long as you appreciate that this is completely irrelevant. Once again, it what the car does with those readings which matters - and if it doesn't know what battery is fitted, it can use them to do "bad" things rather than "good" ones.

I have heard it's best to charge the old battery before fitting a fully charged same type and same or very near capacity of the one being replaced.

 

The battery on my 2017 Yeti was one of a faulty batch of Moll batteries that failed prematurely. A few days before the three year warranty expired, the car refused to start.  I called Skoda Assist (exemplary service incidentally) who tested the battery and found it "totally shot".  The technician replaced the battery there and then.  After I had thanked him, the technician told me he still needed to code the battery to the car.

 

Although I had to stand at a safe distance (Covid) I saw the technician plug a laptop into the car, start the engine, then switch on full electrical load.  Lights, seat heaters, blower, heated windscreen, heated rear window, radio... the lot.  I also saw him turn the steering to full left lock then to full right lock, presumably to add power steering to the electrical load.  Interaction between technician, laptop and car lasted around five minutes.

 

I do not wish to enter into any argument about the necessity of coding; I am merely reporting what I saw 

50 minutes ago, MX-5 said:

As long as you appreciate that this is completely irrelevant. Once again, it what the car does with those readings which matters - and if it doesn't know what battery is fitted, it can use them to do "bad" things rather than "good" ones.

Questioning incorrect statements is not irrelevant, you only have to look at some of the beliefs posted on this thread alone to realise that many people believe without question what they have read or been told.

 

All it would have taken was to say "No, I should have worded that differently, what I wanted to say was........................." but I understand now why that could not happen.

How about sorting all this out behind the bike shed at playtime?

I'm still going to do the coding on every battery change. It is so easy to do, takes about a minute, it takes longer to swap the battery than enter a few settings. So the point of arguing about it seems pointless. It needed doing for me anyway due to the battery type swap from EFB to AGM. A different battery type must be needed info as the charging profile would be different.

The procedure does seem different on different vehicles. My sons Octavia Mk3 VRS for example had totally different forms to populate, the same type of information but a different entry method. We also swapped his original EFB to AGM type battery and on that it had to be entered as Battery Type = Fleece, whereas the Yeti as seen in my earlier attached photo had AGM on a drop down list. His Octavia has Binary-AGM, however I've been told that is something completely different and AGM batteries as normally brought are type Fleece.

23 minutes ago, aubrey said:

I'm still going to do the coding on every battery change. It is so easy to do, takes about a minute,

But that requires the gear that costs more than the battery itself for something that definitely does not need doing if replacing with a fully charged like for like.

1 hour ago, Urrell said:

 like for like.

Probably but mine wasn't, I upgraded from the factory fitted EFB to an AGM type. For the price difference it seemed silly not to. A Varta 570901076 Battery was only £120.   I get your point on having to buy VCDS, but I did that years ago and it has more than paid for itself in normal servicing and fault finding over the years. I've also helped quite a number of local people with scans and coding mods. Anyone local could pop by mine and I'd code their battery after fitting.

 

4 hours ago, aubrey said:

A different battery type must be needed info as the charging profile would be different.

 

I'd be fascinated to hear/see measured evidence that the charging system does actually behave differently when coded for EFB vs AGM, on a given battery (whichever of those types).  

Has anyone ever seen any such experiment in this or any other VAG-group forum? 

 

It's about the only time I wish I had a more recent car so I could do the experiments myself.

 

Logging Terminal 30 voltage during a few similar journeys with each of the two different codings would probably suffice.

 

 

4 hours ago, Urrell said:

But that requires the gear that costs more than the battery itself for something that definitely does not need doing if replacing with a fully charged like for like.

I'm afraid that this is incorrect. Leaving aside the cost of coding, even if the replacement battery is the same type and capacity as the original, the car still needs to be told that the old (reduced capacity, especially if at/close to end of life) battery has been replaced by a new one. Otherwise the battery management system will only charge it at the rate and to the maximum capacity of the (reduced capacity) one that it has leaned about. It will also continue to report to the car's other sub-systems based on this reduced capacity.

 

There is significant complexity involved in battery management on modern cars - the old simplified model of "the alternator puts charge into the battery and various items then consume that charge" no longer really applies.

15 minutes ago, MX-5 said:

Otherwise the battery management system will only charge it at the rate and to the maximum capacity of the (reduced capacity) one that it has learned about.

Please supply evidence to support this assertion.

@MX-5

This thread was posted about a Euro5 2010 Yeti. 

No Stop / Start.  One that was part of the Emission Scandal though so there was new 'Engine Management' / Software developed for as part of a voluntary recall.

So really not a modern car but ones built while VW Group used different methods to have the Low Emission figures that they now get.

Edited 15 October, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

40 minutes ago, Wino said:

Please supply evidence to support this assertion.

"If a battery now needs to be replaced, it needs to be reprogrammed into the vehicles energy management system. Why is this important? An aged worn out battery shows a different behaviour with regards to available capacity, energy output and charge acceptance then a new unused one. The Battery Management System (BMS) together with the Electronic Battery Sensor (EBS) monitors the battery over its lifetime. It detects e.g. the number of starts and the energy flow (Ah throughput), monitors the state of charge, controls the charging and adapts the energy management of the battery over the time dependent of its state of health." (my emphasis)

 

From https://www.varta-partner-portal.com/en-GB/local/batteryworld-professional/coding-of-battery-energy-management-system

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant documented, repeatable, measurable differences; Scientific evidence, rather than assertions from other parties. 

 

This statement near the end is interesting, shame they don't name names.

 

Many car brands do not even require an active recoding as the system recognize the new battery by itself.

So the BEM charges a worn out battery to the same voltage as a same type and capacity of a newly installed one and not to the same voltage as when new?
Could someone explain that?
Without going round the houses.

Edited 15 October, 20214 yr by Urrell

2 minutes ago, Wino said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant documented, repeatable, measurable differences; Scientific evidence, rather than assertions from other parties. 

LOL. Would you like the moon on a stick as well?

 

If Varta (who are one of the world's largest battery manufacturers) are not a sufficiently authoritative source for you, then I suggest that you perform the research yourself and report back to us.

3 minutes ago, Urrell said:

So the BEM charges a worn out battery to a different voltage than a same type and capacity of a newly installed one?
Could someone explain that?

Not the voltage, but the capacity - expressed in Ah - of the battery, will differ depending on the SoH (State of Health) of the battery. This in turn will affect the charging rate, the point at which charging will cease and, of course, the ability of the car to draw power from the battery.

8 minutes ago, MX-5 said:

15 minutes ago, Urrell said:

So the BEM charges a worn out battery to a different voltage than a same type and capacity of a newly installed one?
Could someone explain that?

Not the voltage, but the capacity - expressed in Ah - of the battery, will differ depending on the SoH (State of Health) of the battery. This in turn will affect the charging rate, the point at which charging will cease and, of course, the ability of the car to draw power from the battery.

I am asking about the voltage supplied to the battery changing, yes or no.

(Good) Science needs to be done by independent parties with no financial interest in the experiments. Varta are not that.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Urrell said:

I am asking about the voltage supplied to the battery changing, yes or no.

The charging voltage will probably vary over time (I know that Ctek trickle chargers vary their charging voltage at different phases of charge), but really your question doesn't make sense without also considering Current and Time. The overall charging envelope (Voltage, Current, Time, End Point) will definitely vary depending on the State Of Health of the battery. Charging Voltage is only one part of the equation.

5 minutes ago, Wino said:

(Good) Science needs to be done by independent parties with no financial interest in the experiments. Varta are not that.

Yes, but you're trying to ask a "scientific" question about an engineering issue. I've no doubt that the engineering decisions made by VAG - and all other manufacturers - will be based on sound scientific research, but I don't have the time or the inclination to try to find that original research, and nor is it my area of expertise so I probably wouldn't understand much of it. But I also haven't read up on the first-principles research about all the other parts of my cars, or my TV, or my computer, or ... and I still can understand and use them.

So the best answer you could have given to my request for supporting evidence is:

"No, I cannot, I was just parroting stuff I'd read".

 

That would've been fine.

 

 

28 minutes ago, MX-5 said:

the engineering decisions made by VAG - and all other manufacturers - will be based on sound scientific research

 

"Clean Diesel" ring any bells?

5 minutes ago, Wino said:

So the best answer you could have given to my request for supporting evidence is:

"No, I cannot, I was just parroting stuff I'd read".

 

That would've been fine.

What a ludicrous and patronising view of the world you have. I assume that every single aspect of your life is based on having performed (or at least exhaustively read) the primary research involved, and that you never, ever try to help or educate people without having the full panoply of supporting evidence available. You very obviously have zero knowledge of how engineering, or science, works.

2 minutes ago, Wino said:

"Clean Diesel" ring any bells?

That was a management decision, not a technical or engineering one. Again, you show up your total ignorance of how things work in the real world.

1 minute ago, MX-5 said:

That was a management decision, not a technical or engineering one. Again, you show up your total ignorance of how things work in the real world.

I'll give you that one, but my point of not trusting everything you read stands, I feel. 😊