Regen is exactly like 'Engine Braking' in far as retarding your speed into corners.  Setting up a car for corners.

Just by lifting off the accelerator with the BEV though as he said.   Depending on which there might be just a couple of levels of regen retardation (same ax braking without the brakes being used)

Some vehicles with flappy padels for the level of regen are very much like flappy paddles and an automatic and engines that can provide 'Engine braking'.

 

Manuals different.

The reason i am so aware is that for decades with only one foot i very very seldom use a brake pedal in 2 pedal cars, even with very spirited driving.

BEV,s are easy, but too much regen like with the MINI electric even on the lightest setting is a PITA because it is not with a shifter or paddles it is a toggle switch and high or low regen and coasting is not possible. 

Edited 5 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

25 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Regen is exactly like 'Engine Braking' in far as retarding your speed into corners.  Setting up a car for corners.

Just by lifting off the accelerator with the BEV though as he said.   Depending on which there might be just a couple of levels of regen retardation (same ax braking without the brakes being used)

Some vehicles with flappy padels for the level of regen are very much like flappy paddles and an automatic and engines that can provide 'Engine braking'.

 

Manuals different.

The reason i am so aware is that for decades with only one foot i very very seldom use a brake pedal in 2 pedal cars, even with very spirited driving.

BEV,s are easy, but too much regen like with the MINI electric even on the lightest setting is a PITA because it is not with a shifter or paddles it is a toggle switch and high or low regen and coasting is not possible. 

 

I coast in my EV sometimes.

 

Just knock it in to neutral down the right hill then tickle it back in to light or heavy regen if near a speed limit or just need to brake for junction.

 

Did like the Megane e's 4 level regen on paddles, seem to work well, just not overall that much better than the Zoe.  Wish I tried the European Car of the year Scenic with its big battery but do not like the shape.

 

 

@lol-lol I know you do. 

But then it very much depends on the shifter the car has, and then you are happy doing that, where as i have never ever ran Autos in neutral. 

10 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@lol-lol I know you do. 

But then it very much depends on the shifter the car has, and then you are happy doing that, where as i have never ever ran Autos in neutral. 

 

Confused now. I would never put any vehicle in neutral. Just take my foot off the accelerator. Let the car keep control of itself. In my diesel the MPG instant reading goes up to 99.9mpg (it can't report any higher)

 

https://evecocharge.com/electric-vehicle-range-tips-how-an-ev-works/

 

12 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@lol-lol I know you do. 

But then it very much depends on the shifter the car has, and then you are happy doing that, where as i have never ever ran Autos in neutral. 

 

I do not think of these cars as automatics is the classic sense but rather semi automatic is automatic changes but fixed ratios.

 

Zoe only has one gear, Arkana has 7 fixed ratios and God knows what the Clio has, two electric and four ICE ratios with 15 combinations I read somewhere.

 

Putting in neutral is electronically declutching in my mind.

 

Some circumstances I think if can be good to energy/ petrol consumption.

 

With my diesel, if I put the mode into ECO and I'm doing more than 20mph, if I lift off the throttle the car goes into ECO mode and coasts and it can cover pretty good distance when coasting before I feel the need to give it a spurt of power again, providing the road is level or downhill. A quick dab on the brake pedal will restore some engine braking, another spurt on the juice and lift off and the car is once again coasting.

 

If I go into the mode settings and select normal, the car no longer coasts and engine braking is also noticeably greater. There is a manual mode where I can select a lower gear when engine braking and the effect is even more pronounced, so it is possible with a little practise to use the brakes only for the final few yards before stopping.

13 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

With my diesel, if I put the mode into ECO and I'm doing more than 20mph, if I lift off the throttle the car goes into ECO mode and coasts and it can cover pretty good distance when coasting before I feel the need to give it a spurt of power again, providing the road is level or downhill. A quick dab on the brake pedal will restore some engine braking, another spurt on the juice and lift off and the car is once again coasting.

 

If I go into the mode settings and select normal, the car no longer coasts and engine braking is also noticeably greater. There is a manual mode where I can select a lower gear when engine braking and the effect is even more pronounced, so it is possible with a little practise to use the brakes only for the final few yards before stopping.

I've no idea if that works on my Superb 1.4TSi as I dont have the Eco|Normal|Sport selector option ;o)

Edited 5 May, 20242 yr by Winston_Woof

7 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

I've no idea if that works on my Superb 1.4TSi as I dont have the Eco|Normal|Sport selector option ;o)

I also don't think that the engine braking on a petrol is as good as it is on a diesel, thanks to the lower compression ratios.

4 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I also don't think that the engine braking on a petrol is as good as it is on a diesel, thanks to the lower compression ratios.

This is also true 

15 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I also don't think that the engine braking on a petrol is as good as it is on a diesel, thanks to the lower compression ratios.

 

15 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

This is also true 

I've heard the opposite claim, on the basis that diesels don't have a throttle butterfly, but my experience is that diesel engine braking is better yes.

Edited 6 May, 20242 yr by Paws4Thot

5 minutes ago, Paws4Thot said:

 

I've heard the opposite claim, on the basis that diesels don't have a throttle butterfly, but my experience is that diesel engine braking is betterm yes.

 

A daft claim because if there was a closed throttle butterfly the effective compression ratio would be less (induction stoke at less than atmospheric pressure) giving less engine braking.

 

If you want "real" engine braking from a diesel block the exhaust like lorry and coach exhaust brakes do in other continents.

I had thought that there would class lawsuits being brought against makers of EV cars because of the claimed ranges not being achievable between charges, especially when you are supposed not to charge above 80% of its capacity to prolong the battery life. It now looks like that is highly likely to happen after a motorist took his claim to the ombudsman and won.

 

I wonder how long it will be before adverts start appearing along the lines of the diesel gate ones?

 

Volt(e)-face! How motorist took on electric car giant… and won | Daily Mail Online 

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I had thought that there would class lawsuits being brought against makers of EV cars because of the claimed ranges not being achievable between charges, especially when you are supposed not to charge above 80% of its capacity to prolong the battery life. It now looks like that is highly likely to happen after a motorist took his claim to the ombudsman and won.

 

I wonder how long it will be before adverts start appearing along the lines of the diesel gate ones?

 

Volt(e)-face! How motorist took on electric car giant… and won | Daily Mail Online 

There's a fault with the car. From the article:

 

Quote

‘There have been repairs carried out. And Mr Ross says there’s still fault codes present.

‘He’s also supplied evidence that some of those faults may affect range and/or performance. 

I don’t think a reasonable person would have expected those sorts of faults given the car [was around] two years old when it was supplied, and it had only covered around 23,600 miles and it cost more than £41,000.’

 

By same logic, MPG figure should also be put into a similar class action lawsuit?

@Graham Butcher

I do wish you would stop repeating guff.

 

If you have a 50 kWh usable battery and not charge above 80% or below 20% you are using 60 % of the battery and getting not very far.

 

I have under 30kWh usable and get 100 miles, it can do the 114 miles EPA figure, *& not have the battery empty.*

It could do the 145 mile WLTP i  hear some mention & MINI and so others publish that is not the correct figure.  That needs hypermiling or perfect circumstances, road and weather.

(There is a difference simply from which size wheels tyres so trim level you have, as with almost all models of cars from manufacturers.)

 

No way and would i only charge to 80% or not go below 20% and maybe not even get 60 miles even if i was doing 50 mile of a journey.

Edited 6 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

It is a very faulty car if it has a 76.7 kWh usable battery or even 71 kWh that can not do 2.5 miles a kWh, so 177.5 miles, even in the coldest of weather in Scotland or anyplace in the UK even if all motorway miles. 

 

 

Audi had their self in trouble 11 years ago over advertising and claims on MPG.

Kia / Hyundai were caught out in Canada & North America and had to give Fuel Cards to owners for free gasoline.

The WLTP and Electric cars is ridiculous. 

Edited 6 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

The way i see Audi drivers driving i am not suprised they don't get MPG or m/kwh quoted

53 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher

I do wish you would stop repeating guff.

 

If you have a 50 kWh usable battery and not charge above 80% or below 20% you are using 60 % of the battery and getting not very far.

 

I have under 30kWh usable and get 100 miles, it can do the 114 miles WLTP figure, It could do the 145 mile i hear some mention that is not the correct figure.

 

No way and would i only charge to 80% or not go below 20% and maybe not even get 60 miles even if i was doing 50 mile of a journey.

Meanwhile, there are others here who claim that it is wrong to charge above 80% on a regular basis and will shorten the lifespan of the battery and lead to faster degradation of its capacity, so who is correct and who is sprouting guff.

 

Audi have had an V8 A8 driven by JC on Top Gear from London to Edinburgh and back again on 1 tank full of diesel which actually bettered their own WLTP figures and Audi even predicted that it was impossible to do that 800 mile trip on a single tank, but it did, proving that you really can if driven very carefully achieve the claimed figures. Has anyone ever managed to similar with an EV?

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Meanwhile, there are others here who claim that it is wrong to charge above 80% on a regular basis and will shorten the lifespan of the battery and lead to faster degradation of its capacity, so who is correct and who is sprouting guff.

 

Audi have had an V8 A8 driven by JC on Top Gear from London to Edinburgh and back again on 1 tank full of diesel which actually bettered their own WLTP figures and Audi even predicted that it was impossible to do that 800 mile trip on a single tank, but it did, proving that you really can if driven very carefully achieve the claimed figures. Has anyone ever managed to similar with an EV?

 

 

 

 

 

He was also very uncomfortable doing it as no heating/ AC (I forget which) and no radio to try and squeeze every drop so hardly a real world driving experience.

Also, it was telly so who knows if he really did it 🤷

8 minutes ago, @Lee said:

 

He was also very uncomfortable doing it as no heating/ AC (I forget which) and no radio to try and squeeze every drop so hardly a real world driving experience.

Also, it was telly so who knows if he really did it 🤷

No, he had heating, but could not use the AC but he did use the radio, listened so he claimed to radio 2.

@Graham Butcher

Rapid or Ultra Rapid DC charging all the time might well be an issue for people who BUY a ELECTRIC VEHICLE and will be owning it for many many years.

But then if they own it and need to get the miles in between charging they might just do it.

 

Those RENTING a car, Leasing,, driving a company / fleet car might not give a monkeys about the battery in 5 years or 10 years time.

 

Those charging at home or charging with the car parked up will be charging AC and no more than at 22 kW, maybe 11 or 7 kw and might not need to be charging over 80% or even might charge to 90%.

The 80% is about not RAPID or Ultra Rapid charging at a slower speed.    If you have to charge to 100% then you have to charge to 100%. 

 

As to Hypermiling, and driving far with petrols or diesels then i can do that, have done that for decades. 

We never all got to be where we are being daft. 

 

Here it seems to be like people teaching Granny or Grandad to suck eggs (blow eggs.) having only watch videos on how to do it,

@Graham Butcher it might be an idea to go drive an EV or 3 before trying to to educate anyone on them. 

59 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Meanwhile, there are others here who claim that it is wrong to charge above 80% on a regular basis and will shorten the lifespan of the battery and lead to faster degradation of its capacity, so who is correct and who is sprouting guff.

 

Audi have had an V8 A8 driven by JC on Top Gear from London to Edinburgh and back again on 1 tank full of diesel which actually bettered their own WLTP figures and Audi even predicted that it was impossible to do that 800 mile trip on a single tank, but it did, proving that you really can if driven very carefully achieve the claimed figures. Has anyone ever managed to similar with an EV?

Look hard enough and people would have achieved the quoted in ideal conditions:

 

https://ev-database.org/car/1619/Tesla-Model-Y-Long-Range-Dual-Motor

 

169 Wh/km * 1.6 km/mi = 270 Wh/mi.

138 * 1.6 = 221 Wh/Mi

(I'm not sure which figure to take, there's 2 figures and 2 different tests)

 

RSEV video shows 237 Wh/mi trip average. Right in the middle of the 2 figures. It includes using energy to pre-condition for supercharging, hence lower "since charge" than trip average.

 

 

 

For 80% vs lifetime, it's part of a car that is designed to be used. Given the opportunity it is best practice to charge NCM type to 80% and LFP type to 100%. Only thing that one must avoid is storing the battery at 0% or 100% long term, for example parked up for months. Why does the phone battery in the drawer-of-junk die? It's usually because it has been left unattended at 0% for too long.

 

But if you need 100% just go ahead and charge to 100%. My Nissan Leaf  (NCM cells) for example, had periods where I charged to 100% every day for commuting, periods where it only gets charged to 80% every other day, periods where it is charged to 100% every other day. The charge level only gets reduces if it doesn't inconvenient usage.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher

Rapid or Ultra Rapid DC charging all the time might well be an issue for people who BUY a ELECTRIC VEHICLE and will be owning it for many many years.

But then if they own it and need to get the miles in between charging they might just do it.

 

Those RENTING a car, Leasing,, driving a company / fleet car might not give a monkeys about the battery in 5 years or 10 years time.

 

Those charging at home or charging with the car parked up will be charging AC and no more than at 22 kW, maybe 11 or 7 kw and might not need to be charging over 80% or even might charge to 90%.

The 80% is about not RAPID or Ultra Rapid charging at a slower speed.    If you have to charge to 100% then you have to charge to 100%. 

 

As to Hypermiling, and driving far with petrols or diesels then i can do that, have done that for decades. 

We never all got to be where we are being daft. 

 

Here it seems to be like people teaching Granny or Grandad to suck eggs (blow eggs.) having only watch videos on how to do it,

@Graham Butcher it might be an idea to go drive an EV or 3 before trying to to educate anyone on them. 

Sorry if you think I'm trying to teach you, I'm not, merely posting something that may or may not be of interest to other members, it is up to the reader to evaluate if it interests them or not, same as it is when you and others post anything.

 

If it is guff or not, again that is personal opinion.

 

As to the class lawsuits, that has long been my opinion, and one that I posted about and drawn comparisons between it and diesel gate, so nothing new there.

 

Do I hate EV cars?, hell no, I love all kinds of cars, but I have said that we should be able to freely choose the type of car that suits our own individual needs, seems perfectly logical to me.

 

As to charging to 80% or 100% is akin to filling up a fuel tank to 80% or 100%, it will clearly make an impact on the range you can cover before refuelling is required. But the difference to my mind is that filling a tank to 80% or 100% has zero affect on the degradation or the lifespan of the tank, or the car overall, what it will mean is that if you are only doing short trips and you fill the tank, you are carrying a lot of excess weight which is not the case with a battery.

@wyx087 Thanks for sharing that video, but he did still have to stop and charge on that trip, whereas the Audi filled up in London and drove to Edinburgh and back to the same garage in London without any further filling, only filling after reaching the garage, so not quite the same is it, but still pretty impressive though.

 

But I do wish people would not always use the "home charging" guff when not everyone who has an EV has the ability to do home charging and so very often have to rely on the public network which can around 79p a kW which completely blows the cost comparison to shreds. Why can't they assume the usage of public charge network as a given, the reader will be well aware that if charging from home, then the costs would far more favourable for the EV. Grrr.

@Graham Butcher   the readers likely got the idea a long long time ago. 

You really are pointing out the obvious.  Pages and pages of how EV,s are not as good as ICE vehicles, and cost more to run if needing to pay for public charging. 

This is a car forum, we know how many miles a gallon or litre cars can do and how bigger tanks hold more litres and efficient ones go further. 

 

The other day i was ready to stop charging before 50 minutes and went to help someone get charging and forgot about time, went back to stop charging and it was at 99%.

Charger showed £17.20 & when i get home and check it is £21.20.     I went to 54 minutes so charged £1 a minute extra. 

 

 

..........

14 gallon tank not 19 gallons.

15 and an ickle gallon in. 

Heating, de-misting or AC used as needed.

No radio on part of trip because you do not get it over The Lecht...

 

 

Edited 6 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

40 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 Thanks for sharing that video, but he did still have to stop and charge on that trip, whereas the Audi filled up in London and drove to Edinburgh and back to the same garage in London without any further filling, only filling after reaching the garage, so not quite the same is it, but still pretty impressive though.

 

Did Clarkson do the 800 mile round trip without stopping to take a pee or eat or even stretch his legs where he could, if he were in an EV, have used that time to charge? 

Now that would be impressive. 

 

TBH this thread has been done to death IMO.