16 minutes ago, @Lee said:

 

Did Clarkson do the 800 mile round trip without stopping to take a pee or eat or even stretch his legs where he could, if he were in an EV, have used that time to charge? 

Now that would be impressive. 

 

TBH this thread has been done to death IMO. 

To answer your question, no, he did not do it without stopping. He even stayed overnight in Edinburgh and this was even highlighted in the short videos. Seeing as this was 21 years ago, there was zero reference to EVs so that was not the reason the trail was carried out for. I think the reason was that it was around the time that diesel was being hailed as the fuel of the fuel and how economical it was seeing as it was 4 litre engine and at the time was the worlds most powerful diesel engine fitted to a standard production car.

 

TBH I only posted that as a response to the post made by Ootohere about Audi getting into bother 11 years ago claiming better MPG than drivers were supposedly able to get from their cars, and that 10 years aft the Top Gear experiment which I expect was done in support of showing diesel as being a good choice of motive power.

 

We all know that the actual mpg you get from any car regardless of it being an EV, Petrol or Diesel, will be considerably lower than claimed if you are using all the gadgets and AC, carrying extra weight and or driving in a spirited fashion or with under inflated tyres.

God you're boring 🥱

1 minute ago, @Lee said:

God you're boring 🥱

Just trying to be helpful and prevent folk going off at a tangent with OTT reactions all the time.

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Just trying to be helpful and prevent folk going off at a tangent with OTT reactions all the time.

Oh sweet irony. 

Diesel is a good choice. 

I am setting off to do 160 miles in a diesel. 

I will get 53 mpg on the route i am doing, 70 mph Average Speed cameras half of the distance.

 

The thing is about the 800 mile trip in cold weather in an 03 V8 diesel Audi having put in 19.8 litres of fuel.

(Top gear Magazine article said 19.7 gallons.   Just for a matter of actuality.)

Cold breath to show how cold....  Not letting heat out of the heater vents is for daffties.

 

You really do not AC to stay warm do you, you can have 16 or 17 even 18*oC inside the cabin of a diesel and not be using fuel the can not be saved by going 1 mph slower. 

 

So if i do 400 miles in the BMW Estate i am driving today i would use say 9 gallon, less than the 50 mpg i can get. 41 litres.  @ 160 pence a litre. £65.60.

If i get 40 mpg like Jeremy Clarkson might, then 10 gallons. 45.5 litres. £73

 

..........................

If in a Tesla with it getting 4 miles a kWh then 100 kWh @50 pence a kWh. £50. 1 stop to Ultra Rapid charge.

A Tesla having to use a BP Pulse @ 69 pence £69.00

@79 pence = £79.

 

If the Tesla got 3.5 miles a kWh @ 55 pence charging Tesla Super Chargeing, for 400 miles. 114.3 kWh.  £63.

 

If i was in the MINI Electric i would need to spend 50 minutes each 100 miles to charge to do the next 100 miles. 

Edited 7 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

We all know that the actual mpg you get from any car regardless of it being an EV, Petrol or Diesel, will be considerably lower than claimed if you are using all the gadgets and AC, carrying extra weight and or driving in a spirited fashion or with under inflated tyres.

Then why single out EV for a class action lawsuit on its efficiency/range claims based on same official test cycles? 

 

We all know the number is for comparison sake, not to be used in real life. 

40 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Then why single out EV for a class action lawsuit on its efficiency/range claims based on same official test cycles? 

 

We all know the number is for comparison sake, not to be used in real life. 

Why is diesel being singled out, we have all seen and heard the adverts, but the fact remains that it is because these companies pressing the claims all make serious money from every successful claim, the same applies to all the PPI claims.

57 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Cold breath to show how cold....  Not letting heat out of the heater vents is for daffties.

 

You really do not AC to stay warm do you, you can have 16 or 17 even 18*oC inside the cabin of a diesel and not be using fuel the can not be saved by going 1 mph slower. 

 

IIRC from the original broadcast, heating was used, but AC was not as the compressor robs engine power regardless of whether the AC is actually cooling or not, it serves another purpose of dehumidifying the air.

22 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Why is diesel being singled out, we have all seen and heard the adverts, but the fact remains that it is because these companies pressing the claims all make serious money from every successful claim, the same applies to all the PPI claims.

You've singled out EV. 

14 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I had thought that there would class lawsuits being brought against makers of EV cars because of the claimed ranges not being achievable between charges

 

I've not mentioned diesel. If you have a chip on your shoulder, go ask this question to relevant people. 

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

You've singled out EV. 

 

I've not mentioned diesel. If you have a chip on your shoulder, go ask this question to relevant people. 

I've not singled out EV, all I did was post a report where a claim had been made and won. 

 

I never said you mentioned diesel either, I did and asked why is diesel having claims?  Why is PPI also having claims, I did that as an example.

 

The only chip I have on my shoulder is about people having the option of ICE cars being slowly removed from them. 

 

Ask yourself the question, when ICE was first introduced all those years ago, do you think that bikes and horses and steam were removed as an option?

 

ICE became the dominant means of transport by people favouring it over the other choices. Do you actually know that the same won't happen with EVs? 

30 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Why is diesel being singled out, we have all seen and heard the adverts, but the fact remains that it is because these companies pressing the claims all make serious money from every successful claim, the same applies to all the PPI claims.

 

Diesel engined vehicles are being singled out as they are the worst polluters, particularly for NOX and PMs.  the regulation even allow diesels to emit up to 80 milligrams of NOX rather than 60 for petrol as they know diesel struggle even to get below this level.  The etech version of my Arkana is 6 milligrams, my Arkana is an embarrassing 22 mg/km.  Average, still available diesel cars are about 40 mg/km and this is with Ad Blue systems.  It is logical diesel are continually under scrutiny and the PMs situation is also bad too.

 

The UK emission "standards" are at levels twice the WHO have set so just because Uk say UK air quality is moderate etc is against its own poor standard.

 

EV owners tend to be on the intelligent side I have found but you of course get some idiots, we have seen a few on the Youtube channel, and getting about what one expects in terms of energy per mile, based against WLTP, which is still a test condition and at ambient temperatures is understood by anyone with at least half a functioning brain.  I have always seen the Renault range, both actual and estimated by the car, as reasonable a gainst what it was advertised, informed on the WLTP test ie 238 miles. If it is cold, windy, rainy then simple slow down a few mph, makes little difference to the journey time and one will still get over 200 miles even in adverse conditions.  Some of the big Audis only get about 2.5 miles per kWh as the are big, heavy, block shaped, do not have the best motors etc so hardly surprising compare poorly to TESLAs and even Renaults and Nissans.  EV drivers enjoy the cheap running costs and if they have to do a longish journey the plan and use a stop with some of the tens of thousands of chargers in the UK and these are getting cheaper as TESLA roll out the V4 versions.         

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I've not singled out EV, all I did was post a report where a claim had been made and won. 

There was a fault with the vehicle. The range issues was part of the fault. This claim cannot be viewed as precedence of winning law suites for claiming that most EV can't do WLTP rated range. Just as ombudsman ruling for faulty diesel engine cannot be used as precedence for claiming not reaching MPG figures.

 

I think you are fully aware of why MPG figures are unattainable in normal driving, why no one in their sane mind would expect to win a class action lawsuit for ICE MPG claims . But you still choose to bang the drum on EV range claim and seed the lawsuit doubt and range uncertainty. That is the definition of FUD.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

The only chip I have on my shoulder is about people having the option of ICE cars being slowly removed from them. 

Option of ICE car is not removed for next 10+ years.

 

If anything, I don't think that's soon enough. I'm sure we can agree to disagree on this.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Do you actually know that the same won't happen with EVs? 

The reason for banning ICE has everything to do with climate change, where speed of adoption is of essence. Not comparable to adoption of ICE over horses, where it is pushed by both capitalism and convenience.

 

Let stop both BS, Burning Stuff and Bull ****..

 

In other good news it has been said that TESLA Berlin is starting to make RHD model Ys. Yippy, should now be soon a grand or two off the RRP !!  

If TESLA would sell Model Ys Standard Range for less than £40k that would be great.  Still prefer Model 3 Highland looks but nice to have choice especially one might be thinking about carrying extended family and their kit ie prams etc.

 

 

Edited 7 May, 20242 yr by lol-lol

Well good Charging hubs are going up nicely around and about Aberdeen.   

Aberdeen By-Pass route to Airport / Inverness A96 route.

 Westhill has beside McD,s 12 Ionity 350 kW @ 71 pence,

& 6 x dual Alpitronic 300 kW chargers (12 plugs on the ESB Network at Greggs  74 pence a kWh.

PodPoint Rapid at Tesco 62 pence

& not that far away the Park & Ride @ Kingswell 47 pence rapid

and 4 or more hotels near with chargers installed or going in. including Holiday Inn.

There are a selection pf places with AC chargers about as well.

 

I did 55 mpg from the Turbo diesel, & then had the new old Style MINI Electric to drive for 50 miles and put it on an Ionity charger before handing it over to the new owner. 

I was getting 6 miles to the kWh on the OEM tyres which were at 45 PSI. 

8.3 kWh to charge @ 71 pence was £5.90.   Or would of been i was using a Payment card. 

 

 

 

Edited 7 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

I was being told today by a guy that EV,s are no use and i i seen this guy with a Porsche that is not worth anything now and he can not sell it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

But if a long watch but really intersting. Toyotas hydrogen approach

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

I was being told today by a guy that EV,s are no use and i i seen this guy with a Porsche that is not worth anything now and he can not sell it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's just guff. 

Just seen a GWM Ora and I thought to myself that Kia missed a trick with not grabbing that name

 

@Graham Butcher  Really not guff. 

A guy came up to me and asked if it was the NEW Electric MINI and how far does it go.

I told him it was not the NEW one not yet out and about 110 miles but more in this weather.  Then he went on about the MacMaster. 

I told him b0llocks to the MacMaster. 

9 hours ago, wyx087 said:

There was a fault with the vehicle. The range issues was part of the fault. This claim cannot be viewed as precedence of winning law suites for claiming that most EV can't do WLTP rated range. Just as ombudsman ruling for faulty diesel engine cannot be used as precedence for claiming not reaching MPG figures.

 

I think you are fully aware of why MPG figures are unattainable in normal driving, why no one in their sane mind would expect to win a class action lawsuit for ICE MPG claims . But you still choose to bang the drum on EV range claim and seed the lawsuit doubt and range uncertainty. That is the definition of FUD.

 

The car should never have been sold by Arnold Clarks with faults on it, a 2-year-old car should not have faults that could affect its range or performance, its a low miler even.  Considering the makers claim for that car is the worst case for combined cycle195 miles, based on -10C and use of heating and best case for combined is 255miles @ +23C (no AC). The driver claims he was expecting around 150 miles worst, so he had already reckoned on 25% lower than the brochure claimed. He said he was getting nowhere near his downwards revised figure.

 

For ICE, Parkers say that you should expect to achieve a figure of around 15% less than the maker's claimed figure, so a car claimed of doing 61mpg then a realistic expectation should be around 52mpg

 

Plus November 2022 was so it happens, the warmest on record with the average temp of +8.4C, some 18.4C above Audi's claimed worst range figure of -10C, so its not unreasonable to expect a little better performance? I know that "What Car" claimed to have some tests on cold batteries and have seen drops from what's claimed of about 38%, in itself that figure is misleading and does not reflect reality. We all deserve more honesty in these claims.

9 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Option of ICE car is not removed for next 10+ years.

 

If anything, I don't think that's soon enough. I'm sure we can agree to disagree on this.

The 10 years is agreed, I hesitate to agree that it should be sooner

 

9 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The reason for banning ICE has everything to do with climate change, where speed of adoption is of essence. Not comparable to adoption of ICE over horses, where it is pushed by both capitalism and convenience.

You misunderstood my meaning here, I was asking how do we know that in a few years time, the authorities would not come to a conclusion that BEV's are not the golden ticket they thought it was, just as they have with regard to diesel not being the fuel of the future that they once claimed it was.

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher  Really not guff. 

A guy came up to me and asked if it was the NEW Electric MINI and how far does it go.

I told him it was not the NEW one not yet out and about 110 miles but more in this weather.  Then he went on about the MacMaster. 

I told him b0llocks to the MacMaster. 

I was saying that it was guff because you posted another of his videos as if you approved of it.

I posted his videos in case someone might not know the context of the 2nd video. 

 

Sir Arnold Clark got where he was selling many thousands of used vehicles over the decades and many many have been faulty.

The Group since his death continue in the same vein of total incompetence at all levels but really some mud and senior management. 

Sales and Service staff can be really really hopeless.

 

21 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

You misunderstood my meaning here, I was asking how do we know that in a few years time, the authorities would not come to a conclusion that BEV's are not the golden ticket they thought it was, just as they have with regard to diesel not being the fuel of the future that they once claimed it was.

Unlike petrol to diesel, this change isn't a minor iteration on burning stuff. EV (green hydrogen FCEV or BEV) are a complete step change, completely centralised pollution, making it easier to clean up for the government. No more waiting 15 years for the car to be off the road.

 

The only way BEV is not the golden ticket is when private transportation is being phased out. May not be in my lifetime but I think it's definitely a "when", not "if".

 

I've been playing a little game called "Beecarbonize" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beecarbonize

The best approach has always been to remove 20th centry industry and go all in on renewable as quickly as possible.

 

EV is part of the renewable solution. For example, today had been very sunny, my solar PV generated 12.6 kWh, 5.8 kWh went into batteries. When Leaf was reaching high SoC, I set the MY to charge, 2.3 kWh during most sunny period. The evening click&collect was 100% renewable, also current house usage is 100% renewable without needing to manufacture a new battery to achieve it.

 

24 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

For ICE, Parkers say that you should expect to achieve a figure of around 15% less than the maker's claimed figure, so a car claimed of doing 61mpg then a realistic expectation should be around 52mpg

Is this in worst weather or lifetime average?

 

My old Octavia is said to be 62 mpg:

https://www.parkers.co.uk/skoda/octavia/hatchback-2013/20-tdi-cr-elegance-5d-dsg/specs/

I get 53.4 mpg over my whole ownership, tracked by fuelly:

https://www.fuelly.com/car/skoda/octavia/2013/wuyanxu/623258

But definitely cannot hit 50 mpg during winter. 20% deficiency.

 

We've seen MY LR efficiency between 223-272 Wh/mi. https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1619/Tesla-Model-Y-Long-Range-Dual-Motor

My lifetime efficiency in the MYLR over 14k miles is 272 Wh/mi according to the car's lifetime trip meter that I've never reset.

 

End of the day, I've never expected to get more than 600 miles out of Octavia, despite spec claims 682 miles. Similarly, I wouldn't fault my current MY LR if it fails to reach 330 miles claimed range. But the tech inside and vertical integration with superchargers (and ability to charge at home) makes it MUCH easier to utilise the full range if needed.

Only 'scrap value'   

 

 Valuable used battery, and maybe parted out it is worth more than trade in or to buy offers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

37 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

I posted his videos in case someone might not know the context of the 2nd video. 

 

Sir Arnold Clark got where he was selling many thousands of used vehicles over the decades and many many have been faulty.

The Group since his death continue in the same vein of total incompetence at all levels but really some mud and senior management. 

Sales and Service staff can be really really hopeless.

 

 

I thought he got were he did with acquisitions of many dealerships

 

 

 

All dealers can sell a lemon

 

This recent watchdog on Cinch ?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001yc1x/the-one-show-17042024?seriesId=unsliced