9 hours ago, domhnall said:

my point was that it was massively inconvenient that my diesel VW didn't fill itself up while I was asleep in the same way that my Skoda does. So whereas my Skoda took about 5 seconds to lug in, the VW needed a diversion off the main road and then to a filling station and then I had to get back to the route I was on. That took over 20 minutes. As for your friend's Tesla experience I am sure that he knows that if the car preheats the battery and he charges only when down to around 15% then he will see the fastest charge rates. Just like filling up a jug of water, when it's emoty you fill up really fast but as it gets fuller you tend to slow up.

Yes he's very aware of pre-conditioning the battery and the optimal state of battery to charge etc😉 Sometimes you can't always be too choosy about how much battery you have left when you get to a charger though and in this case it had more to do with the charger than the car.

Your analogy about filling a jug with water isn't the best tbh as if you compare it to filling a car with petrol which is more what we are talking about, the pump fills it at pretty much the same rate until it cuts out which is pretty instantaneous (or if you stop yourself before the tank is full).

As Graham says, I do find it odd that you had to do such a large diversion to fill up, I've never done such a diversion in my life to date.

The 'filling up while you sleep' is a compelling point but in my opinion doesn't have a lot of substance to it. Whilst many say that you leave every day with a 'full tank' I would argue that this is far from the truth. My Superb (mostly used for motorway cruising) does 750-850 miles between fills and even the best EVs will not do more than around 250 miles at highway speeds (less in winter) so I think it's truer to say that with an EV you start every day with 1/4 - 1/3 of a tank which doesn't quite have the same appeal.

Plus you have the faff of plugging in and unplugging every day as well.

I guess I will have to get an EV one day but I really hope the technology improves very quickly as for me what is currently available just doesn't cut it and that is the main reason why I really resent the way the government are effectively forcing us into it. Just let people make the move when they decide it works for them.

@domhnall @Dieselgate - I've had to do a significant diversion as described literally once in 40 years, when I didn't fill up before leaving, and came off route into an area that was suffering a power cut so had to drive more off route miles than anticipated to reach fuel pumps with electric power. Dom, do you see the common factor between filling ICE and Scalextric cars here?

1 hour ago, Dieselgate said:

Plus you have the faff of plugging in and unplugging every day as well.

Trick is making it really easy to plug in. Install a holster for the plug next to where the car's charge port, so plugging in/unplug takes 1 second. 

 

1 hour ago, Dieselgate said:

My Superb (mostly used for motorway cruising) does 750-850 miles between fills and even the best EVs will not do more than around 250 miles at highway speeds (less in winter) so I think it's truer to say that with an EV you start every day with 1/4 - 1/3 of a tank which doesn't quite have the same appeal.

Do you drive more than 250 miles in one sitting without stopping? 

 

In UK with the state of roads and without traffic, that is ~6 hours driving on the motorway. 

 

Driving up from London to Carlisle, I have only used the upper 50% of its battery capacity. 

1 hour ago, Paws4Thot said:

@domhnall @Dieselgate - I've had to do a significant diversion as described literally once in 40 years, when I didn't fill up before leaving, and came off route into an area that was suffering a power cut so had to drive more off route miles than anticipated to reach fuel pumps with electric power. Dom, do you see the common factor between filling ICE and Scalextric cars here?

The other thing to remember here is that filling stations have had many years to evolve and as they don't consume much power can be located almost anywhere and so by default are normally to found on the busiest roads such as main roads, bypasses etc whereas charging hubs need to be close to a national grid power line and so will tend to be off the beaten track a bit.

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

22 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Trick is making it really easy to plug in. Install a holster for the plug next to where the car's charge port, so plugging in/unplug takes 1 second. 

 

Do you drive more than 250 miles in one sitting without stopping? 

 

In UK with the state of roads and without traffic, that is ~6 hours driving on the motorway. 

 

Driving up from London to Carlisle, I have only used the upper 50% of its battery capacity. 

Yes, I have done that many times in the past in order to get back home for instance after a being away up in the lake district on business for a few days. I did it in order to see my kids and wife before they went to bed. Also it's not just the distance you travel, but the speed and it is well known that motorway speeds around the limit, kill electric cars range. I could have driven my bubble car on long distance trips but need breaks etc as it would not have been in its element, but my current car is designed to be a mile muncher. The other thing that both dieselgate and I enjoy is that we can drive upto approx 400 miles away and back again without filling up. Some places you have to go to, do not have the ability to charge while you do whatever you went there for, meaning that not only do you have to factor in time on outward leg to charge to make sure you get there, but you also have to do  the same on the return leg. 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

The other thing to remember here is that filling stations have had many years to evolve and as they don't consume much power can be located almost anywhere and so by default are normally to found on the busiest roads such as main roads, bypasses etc whereas charging hubs need to be close to a national grid power line and so will tend to be off the beaten track a bit.

 

Not found this to be true.

 

Maygor ionity, opposite service station, few hundred metres, next to a subway, happy days.

 

J1, M5, just off the trunk road, Starbucks and view of the Hawthornes Baggies ground, happy days.

 

Now TESLA putting v4 chargers at services ie Frankley, Reading, cheaper charging prices and very convient.

 

Not that I need to charge hardly ever so just enjoy my sub 2p per mile home charging.

 

45 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Trick is making it really easy to plug in. Install a holster for the plug next to where the car's charge port, so plugging in/unplug takes 1 second. 

Sure - I think 1 second is probably still a bit optimistic though! You still have to open the flap at the very least.

 

47 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Do you drive more than 250 miles in one sitting without stopping? 

 

In UK with the state of roads and without traffic, that is ~6 hours driving on the motorway. 

 

Driving up from London to Carlisle, I have only used the upper 50% of its battery capacity. 

Yes quite frequently. Sometimes with a 5 minute toilet or fuel stop if necessary but I generally try and avoid even these if possible.

250 miles does not take 6 hours, at least not for me. Looking at a few recent trips I have done for example:

267 miles down to Devon in 4 hours (a lot of the last bit was country lanes and a chunk of the A303 is of course single carriageway).

502 miles to Scotland in 8 hours (including around an hour's worth of stops).

Plus as I've mentioned before, regular trips to Germany which is about 320 miles which normally takes about 4 hours (from Calais).

We generally cruise at about 105mph when in Germany and with a roofbox I reckon you would be looking for a charger after about 100 miles.

I quite accept that for many people these are not things they need to or even want to do but for me they are needed to fit in with work & other commitments etc.

Plus do any EV's have a spare wheel yet? That's important for me too.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

Not found this to be true.

 

Maygor ionity, opposite service station, few hundred metres, next to a subway, happy days.

 

J1, M5, just off the trunk road, Starbucks and view of the Hawthornes Baggies ground, happy days.

 

Now TESLA putting v4 chargers at services ie Frankley, Reading, cheaper charging prices and very convient.

 

Not that I need to charge hardly ever so just enjoy my sub 2p per mile home charging.

 

I did say tend to be, obviously the national grid transmission lines will run across some major roads and be fairly close to others, so there will always be the odd few will not require deviation away from the main road and your route.

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

@Graham Butcher Charging Stations can have their own Solar or Wind Generating energy and battery storage and not require the National Grid connection.

Payment can require Mobile Reception and that is an issue places.

 

As to near the National Grid, those transmission pylons running up and down the 4 countries of the UK that we see and that are complained about are maybe on rough ground, but use your head, they might use Unimogs and the 110 Land Rovers etc to access them, but they are not that far from any roads, trunk routes or not. 

 

Please tell me with Glens that have Public roads up them and habitation that does not have Electricity to those buildings.

Inns/ Hotels, Farms, Lodges, Warden / Visitor Centres, Car Parking. 

(I know a few, but really very near the head of the glen there are utilities.   Radio, Phone, Wifi reception there might not be. )

 

@Dieselgate  Can we assume that BEV,s are not for you? 

 

.................

Wind Turbine on the hill and battery storage. 

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

PS.

Yes you could live with a Big Battery Car or a not big battery car with a Trickle charger. 

But,

it matters how many miles you will be doing using that home or someones electric & how long you are going to have to charge.   

 

 More important is if you can not get your car to where you can plug into a 3 pin plug then that is the Home / Work charging issue, and Public charging will be damn expensive.

 

51 pence Tesla charging is now the price where Tesla non Tesla charging is getting too expensive.

10 kWh costing £5.10 and getting me maybe 35 miles.

Other Public Rapid charging is quite a bit more in the majority of providers.

 

100 miles for £2, then the next 100 miles, 30 kWh £15.30.  At worst..

So 200 miles £17.30.

300 miles, £2 & 2 times £15.30 = £32.60.       (300 miles @ 50 mpg petrol, 6 gallons, 140 pence a litre, £6.36 a gallon x 6 = £38.16)

 

My home tariff now of 6.9 pence a kWh is ok.

100 miles for £2.00  with my small battery car.     

* I need 2 x 7 hour night time sessions to charge the car from about 10% to 100% with me doing 10 miles after the first charge to 60%.

That is a 32.6 kWh battery and 28.9 kWh usable.   Cheap offpeak tariff 12am -7 am.*

If i had a wall box charger that would be under 6 hours of charging needed, near empty to full.

 

 

 

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

41 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Can we assume that BEV,s are not for you? 

I think that's pretty clear at this stage although I guess I'll buy one someday, but only once it fits my needs.

Unless I'm forced to earlier which is looking quite likely at present...

22 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher Charging Stations can have their own Solar or Wind Generating energy and battery storage and not require the National Grid connection.

Payment can require Mobile Reception and that is an issue places.

 

As to near the National Grid, those transmission pylons running up and down the 4 countries of the UK that we see and that are complained about are maybe on rough ground, but use your head, they might use Unimogs and the 110 Land Rovers etc to access them, but they are not that far from any roads, trunk routes or not. 

 

Please tell me with Glens that have Public roads up them and habitation that does not have Electricity to those buildings.

Inns/ Hotels, Farms, Lodges, Warden / Visitor Centres, Car Parking. 

(I know a few, but really very near the head of the glen there are utilities.   Radio, Phone, Wifi reception there might not be. )

 

@Dieselgate  Can we assume that BEV,s are not for you? 

 

.................

Wind Turbine on the hill and battery storage. 

I was not talking about a few chargers at the side of a cafe / filling station etc, but a full sized electric forecourt type which is what you would expect to find located on busy main roads that people would be using to travel long distances in as short a time as possible. You might be lucky enough to get a charger at one of the smaller sites, but I doubt that you would get the super high speed charge because of the cost of running a large enough cable from the nearest sub station with enough capacity to allow the maximum charge to be delivered., something that as Dieselgate said, is not a problem a fuel pump has, it will always deliver fuel at maximum flowrate, regardless of how many other pumps are in use as each pump is maybe only drawing around 1Kw from the supply.

 

The Electric Forecourt site at Braintree that Dave Takes It On mentioned is 2 miles away from the main A120 and was sited there as the National Grid had just stuck a large sub station there in preparation for a large industrial estate to be built. Electric Forecourt are located right next door to this sub station because of the current consumption of the site.

 

@Dieselgate Your 2022 car will be ok for 15 years will it not?

Maybe a bit pricey taking it some places in the future with low emission zones etc.

^^^ That is the UK Government and England for you, all the people, all the money and poor infrastructure.

 

Tell me where people fill up their fuel between Blairgowrie & Ballater if they are spending time going to Deeside and the Braemar area if the Filling station is out of fuel?

But then worse than that is the crappy EV charging between these towns with the chargers in Braemar. 

Ballater is hopeless really and Aboyne is just so so.

 

Transport Scotland, Scottish Government, & others just pathetic & clueless really for the requirements of locals, businesses and tourists as far as EV,s. 

 

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

I thought a 2022 diesel superb would meet all the current ULEZ requirements.

 

Surely the Govt wouldn't stitch diesel buyers up again by moving the goalposts?

Maybe in the next decade there will be a government that will.

There are UK Governments, and then EU Governments just for those heading across the Channel on longer jaunts. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, Dieselgate said:

I think that's pretty clear at this stage although I guess I'll buy one someday, but only once it fits my needs.

Unless I'm forced to earlier which is looking quite likely at present...

Only be forced if you wish to new cars after the deadline, there will as Ootohere points out frequently, there will be plenty of used cars still.

 

I'd love to buy a new car again if I could but alas that currently is not possible, but if it was, I might be tempted to get an EV if the car was big enough to accommodate me and the family in comfort and could do at least 450 to 500 miles on a single charge, and I'm not talking about makers claimed range, but actual true range in order that could do the odd long journey to an airshow 200 miles away and still be able to make it home again without having to charge on the way home and possibly having to queue to get on a charger.

 

If I could do that and charge at home, so even if an overnight charge didn't top it up to full again ready for the days short trips etc then it would sense to do so, as each night the battery would slowly be topped a bit more each time so that come the weekend, if I wanted to do a similar trip again, I could. Currently that is a just a pipe dream, in the meantime I'm entering competitions where I could win an electric car each month, so never say never. That would silence a few critics if that ever happened, and it is quite possible that EVs could be capable of doing that, but for the time being, like you, they do not fulfil my needs yet.

34 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

I thought a 2022 diesel superb would meet all the current ULEZ requirements.

 

Surely the Govt wouldn't stitch diesel buyers up again by moving the goalposts?

Like I said, Never say Never, their lips move, therefore they also tell lies 😁

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, I have done that many times in the past in order to get back home for instance after a being away up in the lake district on business for a few days.

Lake district to Chelmsford is just over 300 miles according to Google, and should take 5 hours to drive. 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Lake+District+National+Park/Chelmsford/@53.0714397,-3.9283109,769207m 

It would take less than 15 minutes to top up at any of the numerous service stations with rapid charging hubs along the way. Assuming did not start with full battery. 

 

Perfectly reasonable to take a 15 min comfort break in a 5+ hour drive. 

 

3 hours ago, Dieselgate said:

250 miles does not take 6 hours, at least not for me. Looking at a few recent trips I have done for example:

267 miles down to Devon in 4 hours (a lot of the last bit was country lanes and a chunk of the A303 is of course single carriageway).

502 miles to Scotland in 8 hours (including around an hour's worth of stops).

Apologies, got my numbers mixed up. I meant 4 hours for 250 miles, 60mph average. 

 

267 miles in 4 hours = 67 mph average speed. Considering single lane country lanes have 60mph speed limit, it is no way achievable within legal speed limit. 

502 miles in 8 hours = 62 mph average speed is about right. Hence 60 mph average is generally considered normal for majority motorway journey, slower on slower roads. 

 

I used to regularly do North Somerset to North London, with zero congestion (eg. during COVID lockdown as essential worker, I needed to be in the office and all the road was essentially empty) the absolute best I managed was 62 mph average on the Skoda trip computer when entering M25, of course dropped to low 50's once got home. Less than 2 miles of country road before joining M5 on the other side. Hence 60 mph average is about right in UK. 

 

The idea that EV battery die quicker when driving on motorway was true for Nissan Leaf. But I don't think it's true for modern EV's with good aero. Of course roof box and towing has negative impact on the efficiency, depending on amount of additional drag. 

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Lake district to Chelmsford is just over 300 miles according to Google, and should take 5 hours to drive. 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Lake+District+National+Park/Chelmsford/@53.0714397,-3.9283109,769207m 

It would take less than 15 minutes to top up at any of the numerous service stations with rapid charging hubs along the way. Assuming did not start with full battery. 

 

Perfectly reasonable to take a 15 min comfort break in a 5+ hour drive. 

 

Hmm, TomTom route planner thinks it is more like 6 hours, a131, A120, M11, A14, M6, A590, which a bit more realistic IMV seeing as the A590 is pretty much a single lane each way road with some nasty surprises along its route.

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

Your 2022 car will be ok for 15 years will it not?

Don't really intend to keep it that long. I do around 25k miles per year and I'm not sure it will still be good for nearly 400k miles?

 

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

267 miles in 4 hours = 67 mph average speed. Considering single lane country lanes have 60mph speed limit, it is no way achievable within legal speed limit. 

502 miles in 8 hours = 62 mph average speed is about right. Hence 60 mph average is generally considered normal for majority motorway journey, slower on slower roads. 

This may come as a surprise to you but there are a few people around who occasionally slip over the speed limit😉

The 500 mile journey in 8 hours includes a stopped time of about an hour in total. About 7 hours actual driving = just over 70mph average.

21 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The idea that EV battery die quicker when driving on motorway was true for Nissan Leaf. But I don't think it's true for modern EV's with good aero. Of course roof box and towing has negative impact on the efficiency, depending on amount of additional drag. 

Possibly true at 60-70 mph but above that they seem to lose efficiency pretty quick.

I appreciate this is quite old but this guy did 112 miles using 71kWh in a Model S at an average speed of just over 100mph.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/discharging-at-high-speed-100-mph.32873/

My friend reckons his Model X (considerably newer) would do about 140 miles at 100mph.

Obviously ICE cars also have much higher consumption at high speeds but the drop is not so steep.

Keeping up an Average speed such as above is a bit more than slipping over the speed limit, on empty roads. 

31 minutes ago, Dieselgate said:

 

Obviously ICE cars also have much higher consumption at high speeds but the drop is not so steep.

its not so much about the speed (although there is a sweet spot) as use of the accelerator which is why IMHO on a motorway run especially ACC in Eco Mode is probably the most fuel efficient way to  make progress

1 hour ago, Dieselgate said:

Don't really intend to keep it that long. I do around 25k miles per year and I'm not sure it will still be good for nearly 400k miles?

My current one has done just over 150K and going strong still.

36 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

its not so much about the speed (although there is a sweet spot) as use of the accelerator which is why IMHO on a motorway run especially ACC in Eco Mode is probably the most fuel efficient way to  make progress

Yes that's what I tend to do, seems to work well.

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

My current one has done just over 150K and going strong still.

Yes sure, I wouldn't have a problem with taking it to perhaps around 200k but I think late 300's is probably pushing it a bit... I don't want to have it making regular trips to the garage even if it doesn't require expensive repairs.