Renault Scenic Long Range. 

 

WLTP 440 miles. that is over 5 miles a kWh.  City warm weather. 

 

WLTP 270 miles,  Highway, 3.1 miles a kWh.

WLTP 210 miles.  Highway Cold weather. 2.4 miles a kWh.

 

***The 300 mile figure top of page is 3.4 miles a kWh.***    It is like pick a number any number. 

 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, but you are distorting the results again from the conditions that Matt set for the test, and you're thinking like a person who is besotted with EVs. Whereas Matt was thinking about people who were thinking about transitioning from an ICE to an EV where heat is a by product of combustion and using a heated seat would be increasing the load on the engine and thus decreasing the range. Surely it is better anyway to be at a comfortable temperature all over your body and not have a hot/warm back and be cold everywhere else? As you get older, you feel the cold more, especially in the feet and hands and cold fingers are not good for driving and wearing gloves is equally not good.

 

Besotted with the massive cash savings (fuel cost usage, servicing and VED) ,not having to go and fill up in carcinogenic petrol stations and knowing I am acting as a decent human being and helping the slow down of climate change.   

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Besotted with the massive cash savings (fuel cost usage, servicing and VED) ,not having to go and fill up in carcinogenic petrol stations and knowing I am acting as a decent human being and helping the slow down of climate change.   

Just keep telling yourself that when (and I do expect that this will happen in the fullness of time) that the confession is announced that actually electric cars are not quite as green and good for the planet as it was originally claimed when they discover the real impact of trading pollution at our end of usage for the massive problems being created in other parts of the world with the water table slowly becoming heavily polluted. We had similar position with the advent of diesel only to be told once huge numbers of people switched that it was supposed to be far worse than petrol. Petrol used to be terrible with its carbon monoxide with is high choice of means of suicide. They cured that with the fitting of catalytic convertors.

 

Fact is air quality is many magnitudes better today than it was in 70's and 80's even, we are extracting greater economy and less pollution from every litre of oil today than it was ever dreamed possible 40 years ago. We get way more mpg from even 3 litre cars now then we got from 1.4 litre cars then, we also get far more mph now for the same amount of fuel. My 1957 Hillman Minx was 1.4l, 54 BHP, 31mpg, 0-60mph in 26 seconds, top speed of 71mph and spewed out loads of pollution, current car is 2l, does upto 65mpg, has 150B HP, top speed of 139 mph, 0-60 8.5 seconds and weighs almost twice the weight of the Hillman and produces a fraction of the pollution.

 

Even today we are exporting thousands of tons of scrap tyres to other parts of the world rather than deal with the recycling of them ourselves here. They have a magnitude of other uses that they could be used for, but because of the low profit margins involved or simply can't be bothered we ship them off to for others to deal with. This video shows a tyre dump on fire, how much carcinogenic fumes are involved here? Kuwaiti citizens deal with effects of fires in world’s largest tyre graveyard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

I found this rather interesting today.

 

 

The UK Media including the motoring press (or Vloggers) seem to be no wiser on anything this week than they were last week. 

If anything is to change in December 2024 then surely time the Government were announcing it. 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I found this rather interesting today.

 

 

 

Yes I was going to this too, good insight i thought.

 

LFP batteries have been a mainly China output but South Korean chaebols LG is to supply Renault etc with 40 kwh LFP traction packs for the rest of this decade. Like the NMC lithium packs they supply for the Alpine 290, R5 performance, Mefane, Scenic etc.  

Certainly looking at an R4 to replace the Zoe and with its V2G ability, much less deg with LFP it could act a home battery and get me closer to paying almost nothing for lecky at home.

 

I expect the battery from my Scenic, or one of the duff 24 individual cell banks, to go in to a static battery bank in 15 or 20 years time where it would spend another bunch of years until it is so far exceeded by new batteries of 2 or 3 times the energy density and half or third the cost and then it can go for reprocessing in about a quarter of a century or so.

 

Europe needs to get it act together as it has missed the boat so far and is losing the argument that the 21st is the Asian century, 20th being American and 19th being British/European.

 

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

The idea of Matt Watson is to produce an entertaining video and we will get some indicators, not very scientific, of what this cars are relatively like. 

 

 

People don't want scientific though do they. They want to know what will happen when they drive it.

 

The conditions for all the cars were the same at the time of filming.

 

Actual experience not scientific ideal conditions results.

6 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

20th being American

 

How so?

 

If you mean Tesla. Would Musk have been successful without Kazuhiro Tsuga at Panasonic and their $1.6bn?

 

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

What car say they topped up all the batteries to 100%. 

It is also very important to top up all cars to 100% on AC to ensure cell balancing. Some vehicles don't do cell balancing when on DC rapid, or report 100% but still doing cell balancing (my early Leaf does this). So the result is not representitive.

 

It is similar for some "tests" where they drive certain distance and then "top up to 100%". The battery isn't as simple as the fuel tank, there is a lot of considerations and background work done invisible to the tester unless they are monitoring via OBD. One cannot just take energy added after one single run using partial battery as de-facto figure. This methodology requires multiple runs to remove occational battery self maintenance consumption biases. 

 

In another words, ICE car journo have no idea how to test EV's. 

  

46 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Certainly looking at an R4 to replace the Zoe and with its V2G ability, much less deg with LFP it could act a home battery and get me closer to paying almost nothing for lecky at home.

 

I'm mightly confused by Renault line up, seems like the 4 is physically bigger than the 5? 

Which one is the smallest 5 seater? I think that is the 5 isn't it? 

 

I also have my eye on the Renault 5 as wife's replacement vehicle many years down the line when its V2G/V2H is available as mass product.

And industry work out whether CCS DC V2G works better or Type 2 AC. Renault 5 is Type 2 AC whilst VAG cars are CCS DC based. 

 

 

  

13 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

Have you seen what FSD v13 can do? 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by wyx087

Energy & Climate Intelligence Unit | Car industry set to meet EV…

Quote

New analysis from the Energy & Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU) has found that the UK car industry is on course to hit the Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) Mandate’s sales targets of 22% target for 2024. [1]

 

In designing the ZEV Mandate the previous Government worked in a key flexibility, that the car industry was in favour of [2], that allows credits to hit the policy’s targets to be earned not just from the sale of EVs, but also from the sale of large numbers of low emission petrol and diesel cars. [3]
 
Analysis of vehicle CO2 data from the Department for Transport and vehicle sales data from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), together with projections for vehicle sales in December based on previous years’ sales trends, reveals that the car industry as a whole is on course to hit the ZEV mandate target of 22% in 2024. This is made up of credits earned from selling EVs – likely to be around 19% – and credits earned from selling low-CO2 emissions petrol and diesel vehicles – likely to be over 3%.

 

Many people keep forgetting the ZEV mandate isn't just about BEV's. 

40 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

How so?

 

If you mean Tesla. Would Musk have been successful without Kazuhiro Tsuga at Panasonic and their $1.6bn?

 

God no. In no small part that the USD is the world's reserve currency. Even in trade from Far East to Europe, as well as America, the USD is the currency usually for both freight and goods. New York has been the business capital of the world but this is changing.

 

China will pass US economy size in a few more years.

 

37 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Have you seen what FSD v13 can do? 

 

Can it do roundabouts now?

 

 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

While it is very true that EV charging hubs use up far more real estate than a PFS does, I dare say that some of you are thinking so what, as EV sales increase (if they do, remember pre-registration is not the same as a sale), then you could be thinking that more PFS could be adapted into becoming smaller hubs, which technically is true, but that still would not be sufficient to handle all the requirements as a small PFS could handle far more cars an hour than a typical charging hub can. The only key to the problem is being able to public recharge to max capacity in the same time as it takes to fill up a liquid fuel tank so that an EV charging centre can compete on a time basis with a PFS and then the second problem comes in being to supply enough power to do that time and time again without the grip being affected so that other users are not impacted by power shortages even on a dull and windless as well as a freezing day. 

 

Charging at home is never ever going to become available to everyone, it's just not possible, so the model has to be perfectly viable in terms of time and cost as it is with fossil fuels, even if it is not possible to get an EV to provide the same range as the current crop of ICE cars, as long as there is not a significant cost and time penalty in having to keep stopping to charge (some ICE cars can only do 2 or 3 hundred miles before needing more fuel) than more people would consider making the switch to electric.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/

23 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Can it do roundabouts now?

 

 

 

Apparently so, more test is needed. V13 is rumoured to be the one they used for robotaxi demo last month.

 

It'

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

While it is very true that EV charging hubs use up far more real estate than a PFS does, I dare say that some of you are thinking so what, as EV sales increase (if they do, remember pre-registration is not the same as a sale), then you could be thinking that more PFS could be adapted into becoming smaller hubs, which technically is true, but that still would not be sufficient to handle all the requirements as a small PFS could handle far more cars an hour than a typical charging hub can. The only key to the problem is being able to public recharge to max capacity in the same time as it takes to fill up a liquid fuel tank so that an EV charging centre can compete on a time basis with a PFS and then the second problem comes in being to supply enough power to do that time and time again without the grip being affected so that other users are not impacted by power shortages even on a dull and windless as well as a freezing day. 

 

Charging at home is never ever going to become available to everyone, it's just not possible, so the model has to be perfectly viable in terms of time and cost as it is with fossil fuels, even if it is not possible to get an EV to provide the same range as the current crop of ICE cars, as long as there is not a significant cost and time penalty in having to keep stopping to charge (some ICE cars can only do 2 or 3 hundred miles before needing more fuel) than more people would consider making the switch to electric.

You are assuming direct replacement of ICE with EV and thus all those replacement must also use petrol station model.

 

EV can charge anywhere.

 

A large portion of EV will be able to charge privately, either at home, at workplace or other private parking.

A smaller portion of EV will be able to charge kerb side as per many solutions already seen.

Only a further smaller portion of EV will need to rely on public rapid charging infrastructure, refuelling like liquid fuel.

The portion divide are my view, but I largely see these 3 category.

 

Not relying on rapid charging is important, mustn't think with same petrol station mentality. A smart charging EV is a valuable asset to transition to renewables.

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Only a further smaller portion of EV will need to rely on public rapid charging infrastructure,

15 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Not seeing much cars there......

 

Is there private underground parking?  If so, they'd be in my first group.

 

 

3 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

People don't want scientific though do they. They want to know what will happen when they drive it.

 

The conditions for all the cars were the same at the time of filming.

 

Actual experience not scientific ideal conditions results.

 

I would hope that drivers want to know what range they might get ie how close to WLTP in Standard Temperature and Pressure and other ambieny Scenarios they might experience.

 

We're the tester Ms driving the cars like an experienced EV driver would ? Probably not 

 

I have drive an hour or two and not touch the foot brake.

I slow down naturally or using slight, medium or high regen via my paddles. This get me about 10% more range i reckon.

 

That is how an experienced EV driver could and should drive but probably not how your average car tester would. Or worse the Q4 driver may not driver that way but the Explorer driver might and undermine the test as looks might have happened.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

I would hope that drivers want to know what range they might get ie how close to WLTP in Standard Temperature and Pressure and other ambieny Scenarios they might experience.

 

We're the tester Ms driving the cars like an experienced EV driver would ? Probably not 

 

I have drive an hour or two and not touch the foot brake.

I slow down naturally or using slight, medium or high regen via my paddles. This get me about 10% more range i reckon.

 

That is how an experienced EV driver could and should drive but probably not how your average car tester would. Or worse the Q4 driver may not driver that way but the Explorer driver might and undermine the test as looks might have happened.

 

 

 

 

Maybe a good idea for another test.

 

Get four identical cars make and model and see who gets the furthest?

8 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Maybe a good idea for another test.

 

Get four identical cars make and model and see who gets the furthest?

 

I would be up for that hypermiling challenge.

 

Micheal Schumacher was not only a f1 driver on another level but a brilliant hyper miler.

 

@wyx087may I suggest that you read what I wrote again, but it still remains true that there are millions who cannot charge some living in blocks of flats will not be able to charge, even in underground car parks as there is high concerns about repeats og the Korean and other places happening. UK Government have already banned EVs from their car parks in London. 

 

6 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Not seeing much cars there......

 

Is there private underground parking?  If so, they'd be in my first group.

 

 

Well here in Chelmsford there are currently approaching 1,000 new flats nearing approval stage that will involve demolishing shopping areas including a mall and rebuilding a new mall with flats above and surrounding it, with other blocks of flats, all of which have zero, yes, that's right zero parking arrangements, so anyone with a car will be forced to look for alternative parking solutions. The streets around the area are all pedestrianised and then the streets around the that area are all the type which have terraced houses as you see in the photo, narrow streets, parking only on one side, the houses themselves are only fractionally wider then the length of a small SUV, so not everyone can park their car there, those that can, do so on a permit. Currently there are no EVs in that area for reasons I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

Like it or not, you are in a very privileged position and as a result you really cannot comprehend how vast numbers of normal everyday folk have to live their lives., so how are these people supposed to cope?

 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

6 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Not seeing much cars there......

 

Is there private underground parking?  If so, they'd be in my first group.

 

 

 

 

Do those figures make sense? 20 X 22kw charge points on a 63amp MCB  using 16mm cable  (50amp) at the end point.

 

22kw is 95amp?

 

63amp = around 14.5kw between 20 cars

 

 

equivalent of 2 home chargers shared between 20 cars

 

Hope they all don't want to go far next day after an overnight charge.

 

At least the heating bill for the flats will go down

 

120 cars on a 400 amp supply. 3.3amp each when all plugged in  = 2 miles an hour.

 

Hopefully someone can explain what i have wrong?

 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper