3 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Some models of BMW i3,s had reached £46,000 plus and they were selling or being leased. Motability were offering for £1,000 advance payment. They were and are a great car but how much profit on then BMW were making might have been the issue. Maybe like Audi A2,s an expensive built car ahead of its time.

I tried an Audi A2. I think it had some TFSI engine, not very torquey.

Aluminium body just as aluminium went expensive and the A2 was not getting much better mpg than the base model Skoda at the time with a little engine. Germans like cars with lots of stability and a good top speed oft and the A2 wad just not on the money IMO.

They did those because they needed to but really an efficient TDI was the answer. There is a place near me with 6 sitting outside looking very sorry for themself. Look ideal for a conversion to an EV.

It is very rare i see ones on the road.

Edited 2 April, 20251 yr by Ootohere

Anyone with a Tesla? I hope that you make sure that the emergency bonnet catch and release mechanism is well maintained, and that you don't ever let it sit around long enough to discharge the batteries. I found this video was very interesting as even Telsa helpline were not able to help this person.

I Abandoned My Tesla For 6 Months (And Not Even Tesla Knew What To Do)

Plenty videos on what you do. Including ones posted in this section of Briskoda.

I get his point about the Audi being poor value. Its basically the same car as VW ID.4 or Skoda Enyaq but £20K more. I've had a couple Q4 E-trons as courtesy cars when my ID.4 was in the shop and I was not impressed by the interior. The seats were hard and materials felt cheap for an Audi. Driving wise its the same as the ID.4, so fine for most. Economy in the real world will be similar to ID.4/Enyaq, so better than he was making out. I'm surprised by the charge speed stated, as many MEB cars will do 175kW (even my 4 year old First Edition after various software updates) but he did not actually test charging. He only states the brochure speed which is the same as mine (135kW) but real world this is most likely wrong.

Not a very good review but he's right about it not being great.

@Luckypants

Hope you don't mind me asking but do you rate your ID.4 ...... ???

I ask, as my mum and her husband are looking at swapping their Honda CRV. 8 years owned from new, and they are looking at the ID.4.

I had seen pics of the 2025 Enyaq and thought it looks pretty good, and he has mentioned that he thinks Skoda's are good ..... (though that is based only on that his friend has an Octavia and rates it, bless him, Lol).

So yes, thoughts appreciated, if you don't mind.

OT,

I had a loaner the other day, an ID5. I like very much, it was comfy.

Did not love it though. I would like an estate though.

@Tilt

On the whole I rate it very highly. The whole thing in the press about haptic buttons being crap and only two window switches is just moaning for moaning's sake. Once you get used to the haptic buttons, they are fine to use.

As a car it is quiet, smooth and comfortable. Climate control works well which makes it feel comfortable all the time no matter what the weather is like outside. The car rides well but you can tell its heavy on twisty roads. It is superb on the motorway with ACC. The seats are comfy for long distances. Range is good in the 77kWh model, giving 4 hours of driving time so ready for a break when needing a charge (240-300 mile real world range). Charging is fast if you understand to plug in at a low SoC. Charging at home has always been a breeze.

I'd advise they get one with a powered tailgate as the manual tailgate is heavy and tends to slam shut hard if left to itself. I would have preferred to have the matrix lights on mine but the basic LED headlamps are good. The current Match trim has both these items. If buying used, get a 2024 model or newer (if budget allows) as it comes with better software and the more efficient / powerful AP550 motor. If buying an older model, endure the dealer updates the software to V3.7 and check all recalls done (biggy is the HV battery health check). Also check if any of the known gremlins have been fixed under warranty, such as front droplinks, charging flap stuck closed, door locks behaving badly (new handles needed and a VAG wide issue). As a used buy, I would strongly recommend getting a VW warranty either Approved used or the VW Extended Warranty as any major issue will be expensive. Battery/drivetrain has 8 year or 100k mile warranty.

One final thing. Get them to sit in one, they are very roomy inside! We came from a Skoda Karoq with similar external dimensions, but the ID.4 is huge inside by comparison. Its the benefit of bespoke EV architecture. We've decided its too big really and we would be fine and comfy in an ID.3 with the benefits of smaller footprint and greater efficiency.

Edited 7 April, 20251 yr by Luckypants
Added warranty recommendation.

I have long doubted the data that BEV's are far less likely to catch fire than ICE vehicles as common sense kept telling me that the whole process and data collection was fatally flawed and was giving people a false sense of security and in some cases smugness has crept into the discussions here.

Well it now seems that my sense was correct and is explained in this video along with all the supporting evidence. Hmmm, beginning to look like we have been moonlighted her and to me, it is beginning to look like diesel gate.

The video essentially says "need better data" because data only include fatal crashes.

(sounds like EV are less prone to catch fire in a crash if you want to say/assume/assert EV catches fire at same/higher rate as ICE cars)

Here is the data source for another statistic that was often quoted on this forum.

Is insurance data of all fire related claims (excluding theft) good enough?

Thatcham Research, the UK motor insurers’ research centre, used the data from the Motor Insurance Anti-Fraud and Theft Register (MIAFTR) and their own data to categorise fire claims by vehicle fuel type, excluding claims relating to theft as they could be due to arson. This data was compared against data on the UK Government website [16] to calculate the percentage of fires per year per average number of cars of a particular propulsion type for the years 2018-2020.

This analysis showed that the average percentage of fire claims per year for an EV out of the average number of licenced EVs was 0.001%, and 0.003% for both plug-in hybrid vehicles and REEVs. This is lower than 0.007% for petrol vehicles and 0.011% for diesel vehicles. This is shown in Figure 7 and Table 2.

On 23/11/2023 at 11:18, wyx087 said:

Section 2.6 in the covered car park fire guidance gives similar stat as the Guardian article, with the same caveats such as age of vehicle in the data set. 

 

 

EV likelihood of fire claim need to be ~10x than existing to match diesel. Exactly as pointed out by the Guardian article, Surely this isn't pushing a political narrative  

 

@Graham Butcher, surely you have the critical thinking skills to do the same as the youtuber and deeply analyse the covered car park file safety guidance (Issued July 2023). Put some evidence into your "sense". We don't need an views-driven entertainer to do this kind of thing.

@Luckypants

Thanks for the information bud.

Fairly sure they will be looking at new 2025 model.

It is funny situation as the last time they visited (late last year) we had, shall we say a little disagreement (me and mum's fella)

He was adamant he wouldn't entertain having an EV as the bloke that sold him the CRV told him that the batteries on EV's only last between 3 to 5 years.

I told him that was crap and the salesman probably only told him that so that he would purchase the CRV. (The dealership probably didn't have any EV's to sell either).

I told him 10 to 12 years ....... He didn't believe me.

He has used L-ion battery power tools for a long time now ffs

My L-ion Makita is still going after 15 years, albeit a bit tired now.

And a quick google search would have put him right if he navigated around the one that was obviously on about the 12v batteries.

Good luck to them now though, I'm sure they will love their decision.

Thanks again.

25 minutes ago, Tilt said:

@Luckypants

Thanks for the information bud.

Fairly sure they will be looking at new 2025 model.

It is funny situation as the last time they visited (late last year) we had, shall we say a little disagreement (me and mum's fella)

He was adamant he wouldn't entertain having an EV as the bloke that sold him the CRV told him that the batteries on EV's only last between 3 to 5 years.

I told him that was crap and the salesman probably only told him that so that he would purchase the CRV. (The dealership probably didn't have any EV's to sell either).

I told him 10 to 12 years ....... He didn't believe me.

He has used L-ion battery power tools for a long time now ffs

My L-ion Makita is still going after 15 years, albeit a bit tired now.

And a quick google search would have put him right if he navigated around the one that was obviously on about the 12v batteries.

Good luck to them now though, I'm sure they will love their decision.

Thanks again.

Well on the battery front, VW ones are warranted for 8 years or 100k miles to have greater than 70% of original capacity. My own ID.4 now has 50K miles in 4 years and by my rough calculation still has 73kWh capacity from the original 77kWh. (95%)

I calculated that recently by trying to force a calibration / cell balance by running the battery low as possible (3% in my case), allowing to sit for 12 hours so the car 'sleeps', then full charge to 100% and leave plugged in for a few hours at 100%. I then started a cabin preheat which woke everything up and the battery started charging again even though showing as 100%. This 'extra' charge added an extra 3kWh (or 10 miles) to my full battery, although S0C display dropped to 99% and then 98% before climbing back up to 100%. Working from an assumed 8% charging losses on a nice day and allowing for the 30 minute cabin preheat gave me my capacity calculation.

In this nice weather the car is claiming a full battery range of 290 miles.

So a real world example of how the battery is faring that you can refer him to.

TBH I think manufacturers will have to shape up a lot better on battery warranties than they are generally currently offering.

70% at 100k/8 years is a pretty big decrease. Most people are used to ICE cars having a similar efficiency to new at that sort of age. I get that in most cases the degradation is a lot lower than that but I think 90% at that age is probably about the limit of what I would consider to be acceptable.

How many with BEV cars older than 2017 are claiming on a battery warranty because of energy storage loss?

There were cars globally that were bought back because batteries would need replaced.

Chevy Bolts.

Maybe Nissan Leafs had the issue. Batteries seem just fine on many EV,s a decade old or older.

Those were the old tech.

There were plenty Taxis / high mileage BEV,s getting Rapid Charging daily and without much battery degragation.

Really? How many ICE cars have an eight year engine/gearbox warranty? (EV battery/motor warranties are for the drive train) Once you are out of manufacturer's warranty period you are on your own. If the engine starts using loads of fuel at 7 years old after 70k miles its on the owner to fix that. Holding EVs to a higher standard is an unfair comparison. The battery warranty demonstrates to the customer the manufacturer has faith in the technology. What gives ICE owners confidence in a ten year old car is anecdotal evidence of similar cars working fine until 10 years (or longer). That anecdotal evidence is still building for EVs and the warranties help with that. There are now many examples of 200K+mile Teslas with good batteries, many older Leafs and Zoes with a high percentage of original range available. These are the cars that have been around long enough to 'test' if the long battery / motor warranties are needed. The oldest MEB platform cars are 2020 ID.3s with many reporting over 200K KM on European forums.

I think it will take time for trust in older EVs to build up, but it will as more and more people buy second-hand EVs.

1 hour ago, Dieselgate said:

TBH I think manufacturers will have to shape up a lot better on battery warranties than they are generally currently offering.

70% at 100k/8 years is a pretty big decrease. Most people are used to ICE cars having a similar efficiency to new at that sort of age. I get that in most cases the degradation is a lot lower than that but I think 90% at that age is probably about the limit of what I would consider to be acceptable.

With traction batteries and their actual capacity it is semi truths along side other semi truths.

When working on a rolling road the measured horsepower was so dire in many case we use to switch the rolling road to display twice the actual reading and then given the owner some bullsh1t on taking account for transmissions losses which an ICE car could be 20% or so ie primary reduction, gearbox, diff etc. Couple that with the 10 or 20% loss in the engine, due to worn piston rings etc and if we showed them that there 140 hp cars, which was actually only putting out around 75 hp, that after our tuning on the Rolling road was producing 150hp, estimated flywheel, they would go away happy and the car would probably feel quicker after our tune so all happy days.

The EV is probably not going to lose anywhere near the HP. Also does not suffer anything like the power train loses.

The traction battery however, mostly being lithium rather than Lithium Iron Phosphate although that percentage ever increasing, will probably suffer deg in the batter performance. A thousand chargers will take its tool. More so on passive air cooled LEAFs, a little bit on the Active air cooled Zoes and less so on liquid cooled more modern Traction batteries. Maybe Chinese BMSs are a little more using more of the voltage range of Korean/European systems, BYD maybe being one of the better Chinese brands but Bjorn Nyland, after his roast of Toyota just highlighted BYD as having a rather poor ie high range of individual cell temperature difference during high powered recharge resulting in rapid-gating.

All Traction batteries on EV have significant margins. Zoe is at least 55 kWh but 52 nominal, Scenic 65 kWh actual but 60 kwh displayed. Drove my scenic 11 miles past zero before it even gave a restricted performance notification and drove on another couple of miles no problem.

Manufacturers oft do over the air updates which redefines the battery bottom and top buffers. The Zoe Ze40 is thought to have had over 20% hidden buffer which it could release to maintain vehicle range and avoid warranty calls saying battery had fallen below 75%.

The Spring's actually battery SOC is reckoned to be 106% to -9% when it actually stops going ie 15% which equated to 25 miles over it 140 mile range.

So what figures do we rely on ? Manufacturers health check ? EBD2 Car Scanner or measuring energy input and output and actual range achieve in ambient/reproducible standard conditions ?

EVs, ie lithium batteries do have foibles, they don't like regen when temp is low but then getting 20% extra range due to regen is cool. Hard to run out of range on an EV and fuelling up at home for about 2 pence per mile is great !

Edited 9 April, 20251 yr by lol-lol

Australian VW Group / Skoda now a 7 year warranty. About time.

They put 100,000 miles / 10 years on DQ200,s back 12 years ago in some world regions because they messed up big style. They should still have that since no Service Schedule.

& 100,000 miles / 8 years on DQ381,s that are turning out more of an issue than DQ200,s ever were.

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

Australian VW Group / Skoda now a 7 year warranty. About time.

They put 100,000 miles / 10 years on DQ200,s back 12 years ago in some world regions because they messed up big style. They should still have that since no Service Schedule.

& 100,000 miles / 8 years on DQ381,s that are turning out more of an issue than DQ200,s ever were.

Australian is an will be increasingly assertively key outlet for Chinese EVs and other Chinese goods.

Cannot see how European car companies can maintain a share there. Only perhaps top end cars etc where those with dosh want to buy exclusivity.

I'm seeing quite a few BYD cars on the road in my area, how about anyone else?

3 hours ago, Luckypants said:

Really? How many ICE cars have an eight year engine/gearbox warranty? (EV battery/motor warranties are for the drive train) Once you are out of manufacturer's warranty period you are on your own. If the engine starts using loads of fuel at 7 years old after 70k miles its on the owner to fix that. Holding EVs to a higher standard is an unfair comparison. The battery warranty demonstrates to the customer the manufacturer has faith in the technology. What gives ICE owners confidence in a ten year old car is anecdotal evidence of similar cars working fine until 10 years (or longer). That anecdotal evidence is still building for EVs and the warranties help with that. There are now many examples of 200K+mile Teslas with good batteries, many older Leafs and Zoes with a high percentage of original range available. These are the cars that have been around long enough to 'test' if the long battery / motor warranties are needed. The oldest MEB platform cars are 2020 ID.3s with many reporting over 200K KM on European forums.

I think it will take time for trust in older EVs to build up, but it will as more and more people buy second-hand EVs.

Warranties vary of course. Toyota offer a 10 year/100k mileage warranty if you service with them. Others such as Genesis and Hyunda offer a 5 year warranty but unlimited miles.

A key difference here is it's very rare for an ICE car to suddenly drink lots more fuel than previously. Warranty issues on ICE cars tend to relate to a total failure of a component rather than a gradual decline as is the case with EV batteries.

My point was that battery degradation is effectively an accepted part of EV ownership - people expect it but for it to drop to 70% in 8 years/100k miles in my view is going to be too much for most people to accept.

VW Group had the fuel drinking and AdBlue drinking issue dealt with, they had the defeat device, and even after 2015 defeat devices in the Audi S-tronics / DSG,s.

Never dealt with EGR,s though or High Oil users, premature engine failures, 2010 to whenever, like 2025.

Re BEV,s, yes a drop to 70% in 8 years / 100,000 miles is way too much.

Which are these that are doing that?

Edited 9 April, 20251 yr by Ootohere

Any comment from the Scalextric lobby?

@Paws4Thot AKA @KenONeill Do they recycle Electric Vehicle Batteries there?

There is a video / link in the Ship / Car Park etc Fire thread.

Edited 10 April, 20251 yr by Ootohere