But is it not true that the higher-than-average earners and the already wealthy people do their level best to avoid as many forms of taxation as it is possible to do? In lots of cases, they even have their bank accounts and savings done where they can get away from tax? Now give the lower earners more money in their pocket; they are the ones that are most likely to go out and spend it on other things, amassing the things that they think the those with more money already have, and in doing so, put money into the country's coffers?

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

So despite your argument to the contrary there was still a net reduction in contributions to the Chancellor's coffers that needs to be 'redressed' by some other means...

The Uk and other countries, like the largest European economy of Germany, tried a period of not giving EV grants but sales dried up and they did not get the net billions of Euros of tax and were not going to hit their emmissions targets so they reintroduced the grants.

Who can say which was the dominant factor ie net tax income or emissions target or fairly equal.

Didn't influence my decisions or my decision to give up my fuel card which was worth a grand or two a year. My decesion was based on no me finding it unacceptable to keep on polluting not financial. For many, particularly thise using salary sacrifice system for EVs I suspect it was mainly financial.

Whether it is Con party or Labour running the scheme they gave acred similarly.

I can live with my conscious as I reckon I pay about 4 times what the median tax payer pays ie average is about £5k tobm £6k where i have paid closer to £20k each year in the last few years.

The 5 year old £3k grant for car and charger and recent £1500 for the 5 is chicken feed to the circa £100k in income tax and NI in that period paid.

9 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

The Uk and other countries, like the largest European economy of Germany, tried a period of not giving EV grants but sales dried up and they did not get the net billions of Euros of tax and were not going to hit their emmissions targets so they reintroduced the grants.

Who can say which was the dominant factor ie net tax income or emissions target or fairly equal.

Didn't influence my decisions or my decision to give up my fuel card which was worth a grand or two a year. My decesion was based on no me finding it unacceptable to keep on polluting not financial. For many, particularly thise using salary sacrifice system for EVs I suspect it was mainly financial.

Whether it is Con party or Labour running the scheme they gave acred similarly.

I can live with my conscious as I reckon I pay about 4 times what the median tax payer pays ie average is about £5k tobm £6k where i have paid closer to £20k each year in the last few years.

The 5 year old £3k grant for car and charger and recent £1500 for the 5 is chicken feed to the circa £100k in income tax and NI in that period paid.

It is not about you and you being comfortable with it, it is more about whether the whole overall picture is right. Perhaps we should make sure first and foremost that as many countries as possible become energy secure by using their own natural resources. Bring manufacturing back to the countries where the consumers are instead of shipping finished products around the globe. That would reduce the overall level of emissions coming from both cargo planes and ships. Bring employment back so more people are able to contribute by way of taxes and thus reduce the amount of benefits having to be given out.

The fact that sales of EVs dried up is the true sign that the public can see the true picture that many EV'ers cannot see. The offerings are not yet capable of being considered as a direct replacement for everyone. When they become considered as such is when they don't cost a premium, and everyone can enjoy the all the benefits that currently only some can and for those that can't take advantage because they need the range etc. of an ICE car, that can see that they are not being made to feel inferior or treated like second class citizens and made to pay through the nose for the fuel.

Edited 8 April8 Apr by Graham Butcher

Worth a listen to, on now or on BBC Sounds. BBC Radio 4. 'Currently' Power to the People : Rewiring Britain.

16 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It is not about you and you being comfortable with it, it is more about whether the whole overall picture is right. Perhaps we should make sure first and foremost that as many countries as possible become energy secure by using their own natural resources. Bring manufacturing back to the countries where the consumers are instead of shipping finished products around the globe. That would reduce the overall level of emissions coming from both cargo planes and ships. Bring employment back so more people are able to contribute by way of taxes and thus reduce the amount of benefits having to be given out.

As just said both Cons and Lab government chose this path. Trump has not and he cancelled EV subsidies but he has managed to **** off ICE drivers even more with relatively expensive diesel and petrol.

Whether Reform would emulate Trump we will hear over the next months and years.

We still have massive choice in the UK. Those choosing pure diesel and petrol gas dropped to under half of new sales. Big middle ground of mild, self cgarging hybrid and PHEV is a big middle group and BEV continue to tick up. Most BEVs don't get the full £3750 but Asian makers are matching those European subsidies from their own margin which they are able to do as the battery packs get cheaper and cheaper.

I don't dwell on this relatively little EV subsidies which compared to other financial matters the government and am more concerned with lending costs, inflation, energy cost as well as the move at best speed for the UK to be self sufficient for energy and supply of oils for plastics etc.

If the UK can sell oil and gas icences to secure supply but the concern has always been that the North Sea etc is relatively expensive to extract from compared to Middle East land based wells abd from what I hear there is not a massive amount of oil and gas left that would nowhere near get us back to being an exporter as we were decades ago.

There might be more fields out there. Italy just found a load of oil off Egypt. Oil and gas have to compete against renewables which continue to fall in generation costs with taller turbines and more efficient solar panels. Only if private industry bear most the financial risk with maybe some early years tax consessions so the UK has security of supply. Maybe for aviation fuel but European crude does not seem to be good for producing diesel, just the nature of the crude.

2 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

As just said both Cons and Lab government chose this path. Trump has not and he cancelled EV subsidies but he has managed to **** off ICE drivers even more with relatively expensive diesel and petrol.

Whether Reform would emulate Trump we will hear over the next months and years.

We still have massive choice in the UK. Those choosing pure diesel and petrol gas dropped to under half of new sales. Big middle ground of mild, self cgarging hybrid and PHEV is a big middle group and BEV continue to tick up. Most BEVs don't get the full £3750 but Asian makers are matching those European subsidies from their own margin which they are able to do as the battery packs get cheaper and cheaper.

I don't dwell on this relatively little EV subsidies which compared to other financial matters the government and am more concerned with lending costs, inflation, energy cost as well as the move at best speed for the UK to be self sufficient for energy and supply of oils for plastics etc.

If the UK can sell oil and gas icences to secure supply but the concern has always been that the North Sea etc is relatively expensive to extract from compared to Middle East land based wells abd from what I hear there is not a massive amount of oil and gas left that would nowhere near get us back to being an exporter as we were decades ago.

There might be more fields out there. Italy just found a load of oil off Egypt. Oil and gas have to compete against renewables which continue to fall in generation costs with taller turbines and more efficient solar panels. Only if private industry bear most the financial risk with maybe some early years tax consessions so the UK has security of supply. Maybe for aviation fuel but European crude does not seem to be good for producing diesel, just the nature of the crude.

Forget all about politics for a second, you said in an earlier post about acts of God. Well, is it not an act of God that we and many countries are sitting on large deposits of oil and other natural resources? Is it impossible then to modify either oil or the engine to make the diesel that our own oil resources produces work together?

War is not an act of God and as has been seen that relying on the shipping oil to other countries is not a very sound policy when an event like war, or an act of God in the true sense can leave another country on its knees because it relies on imported goods too much.

There is a video that Jeremy Clarkson has produced where he talks about this, and he makes, to me at least, an awful lot of sense. But that is way off topic, but for those that want to understand a bit more, he is talking about the basics of life, food but the same logic holds true for other things, as he explains, and here is the link for those that want to know more. Britain Is Sleepwalking Into A FOOD CRISIS. Clarkson WARNS Nobody Is Listening

'Noon today 1/3rd of electricity was from solar'. Just heard on the Radio. No idea if This Country, that often being England. Or the UK, or was it The British Isles. PM on Radio 5 never that good and stating facts.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Forget all about politics for a second, you said in an earlier post about acts of God. Well, is it not an act of God that we and many countries are sitting on large deposits of oil and other natural resources? Is it impossible then to modify either oil or the engine to make the diesel that our own oil resources produces work together?

War is not an act of God and as has been seen that relying on the shipping oil to other countries is not a very sound policy when an event like war, or an act of God in the true sense can leave another country on its knees because it relies on imported goods too much.

There is a video that Jeremy Clarkson has produced where he talks about this, and he makes, to me at least, an awful lot of sense. But that is way off topic, but for those that want to understand a bit more, he is talking about the basics of life, food but the same logic holds true for other things, as he explains, and here is the link for those that want to know more. Britain Is Sleepwalking Into A FOOD CRISIS. Clarkson WARNS Nobody Is Listening

Clarkson not even a good British farmer, not been to Agricultural college abd it shows.

Governments act or sometimes the right action is not to act.

Israel, Iran and US, with the Gulf states as side actors, have chosen certain paths overvthe last few weeks, months, years and decades to bring us where we are today.

I think many how foolish it was to rely on the pricing and supply of a remote and despotic region. This should logically spur on the adoption of more renewable and local powet generation and fuel for transportation.

The policy of the different hues of UK political parties has been to financially encourage EV adoption as well using heat pump technology.

Both have come on leaps and bounds in the last decade or so to make them level in many regards to fossil fuel versions and in some ways vastly superior ie running costs.

One thing is fairly certain that Gulf War 3 has prompted us all to look more closely at components of our lives.

The meeting at Downing St with industry to discuss the fuel hike price issues did leak a few points. I presume they may have signed NDAs but main thing i heard was a request to delay the hike in fuel Excise duty in September. Government would have asked dirsek and petrol retailer why they hiked so fast and so high. There was a report to parliament in late March ie about 2 weeks ago. Think it was saying retailers were on to make over a billion pounds on there preemptive and exorbitant actions on price. J would be angry if I was a fuel buyer, particularly diesel.

Act of God is a colloquial term used for Force Majeur. Smart contracts gave clauses to pass on certain types of supply chain cost surprises. Whilst my recently left international logistics employer is one of the biggest in airfreight, rail freight and sea freight and contracts have such clauses it is oft that such companies are not massive road freight providers leaving it to smaller independent firms who i am afraid are very exposed as their contracts are not usually as watertight and tend to go bust in these sorts of times sadly.

I don't think transport is going to be the same after GW3. Some might think that is a good think in the end !!

Edited 8 April8 Apr by lol-lol

What is this GW3 you are talking about and could you clarify what and what areas of our lives we have looked at more closely as a result of it and why and what transport will be different because of it.

None of what you have said has any coherence or clarity and has very little resonance within the day to day transport industry as far as I can tell from within it.

11 minutes ago, skomaz said:

What is this GW3 you are talking about and could you clarify what and what areas of our lives we have looked at more closely as a result of it and why and what transport will be different because of it.

None of what you have said has any coherence or clarity and has very little resonance within the day to day transport industry as far as I can tell from within it.

'Gulf War 3'

Higher fuel prices because of it are certainly resonating in my pocket.

3 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

'Gulf War 3'

Higher fuel prices because of it are certainly resonating in my pocket.

I did know that but it's not really a full blown Gulf War is it... It's Trump and Netanyahu being aresholes.

And yes fuel prices are high at the moment but I was wanting an explanation as to what the long term knock on effects would be. I can't see it making such huge changes as we're implied.

44 minutes ago, skomaz said:

I did know that but it's not really a full blown Gulf War is it... It's Trump and Netanyahu being aresholes.

And yes fuel prices are high at the moment but I was wanting an explanation as to what the long term knock on effects would be. I can't see it making such huge changes as we're implied.

You must have missed the reports of substantial damage to both gas and oil facilities in the Persian Gulf. About one sixth of some facilities damaged with a quick estimation by them the repairs could take a few years rather than weeks or months. I tend to watch Aljazeera and Bloomberg rather than BBC or other British channels.

Edited 8 April8 Apr by lol-lol

25 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

You must have missed the reports of substantial damage to both gas and oil facilities in the Persian Gulf. About one sixth of some facilities damaged with a quick estimation by them the repairs could take a few years rather than weeks or months. I tend to watch Aljazeera and Bloomberg rather than BBC or other British channels.

No not missed that news.

You didn't answer my questions though... I asked you to clarify what areas of our lives we have looked at more closely as a result of the in Iran and why and what transport will be different because of it in the future.

You response above is just deflection and whataboutery...

3 hours ago, skomaz said:

No not missed that news.

You didn't answer my questions though... I asked you to clarify what areas of our lives we have looked at more closely as a result of the in Iran and why and what transport will be different because of it in the future.

You response above is just deflection and whataboutery...

I mentioned the huge uptick in freight charges, both air and sea, from Europe's main goods supply area ue China and SE Asia. Doubling and even trebling of freight rates. That will have a big effect on landed cost of goods we buy.

Edited 9 April9 Apr by lol-lol

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I mentioned the huge uptick in freight charges, both air and sea, from Europe's main goods supply area ue China and SE Asia. Doubling and even trebling of freight rates. That will have a big effect on landed cost of goods we buy.

That's an additional cost but again isn't answering my question...

So again... what areas of our lives we have looked at more closely as a result of the war in Iran and why and what transport will be different because of it in the future.

If you don't know or can't answer just say... But then also stop making brash broad brush statements about fundamental changes in transport that isnt going to happen... After all is finished we'll still import goods by boat and plane, move them by train and lorry and travel by car, train,bus, bike and legs etc.

Edited 9 April9 Apr by skomaz

@skomaz I think what lol-lol was hinting at is that his beloved electric theme would be dramatical catapulted forwards and that ICE powered cars and lorries would be in decline. finally.

Strange how many people seem to think that BEVs are flying off the shelves and yet.. they aren't. Top Gear Magazine report that the top 10 selling cars in the UK right now are powered by ICE for their main means of power.

These are the UK's top 10 best-selling cars of 2026… so far | Top Gear

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@skomaz I think what lol-lol was hinting at is that his beloved electric theme would be dramatical catapulted forwards and that ICE powered cars and lorries would be in decline. finally.

Strange how many people seem to think that BEVs are flying off the shelves and yet.. they aren't. Top Gear Magazine report that the top 10 selling cars in the UK right now are powered by ICE for their main means of power.

These are the UK's top 10 best-selling cars of 2026… so far | Top Gear

The SMMT data is unclear what had been sold ie PHEV or whatever.

Ex boss was one of those Jeacoo 7 buyers and it is a PHEV with a fairly decent sized traction battery and she expects to drive the car in EV mode during the working week and only use the ICE during weekend farther afield trips. As with the other top ten models is their any BEVs included in the data ie Puma e ?

What we do know that as of March 2026, according to the monthly data by fuel type that more than half of cars registered had some component of electric traction whether that is mild hybrid, self charging hybrid, PHEV or full BEV. A real milestone and this month of April 2026 we will be able to see how buyers gave snapped up the BEVs in the showrooms, cars, vans etc.

Be interesting to see how 2nd hand sales have gone, how many BEVs have been snapped up and how values of BEVs and ICE vehicles are being affected by GW3.

By the state of the peace agreement in the Middle East, the lack of tankers escaping the Middle East Gulf, it is looking like fuel prices are going to stay high for a good while are whilst there are reports of almost a thousand fuel stations running out of fuel, albeit temporarily until next delivery, the Uk and much of the world is wondering when its next tanker ship is going to arrive.

Today was the first time i spotted a Hyundai Ionic 9 Htac. What a beast of a car. Not as bad llooking as the Big Kia version IMO.

Edited 9 April9 Apr by Evolution13

@lol-lol correct, but they all have an ICE engine as the main power unit, they can only run in EV mode for short distances.

The Hyundai Ionic 9 Htac, looks absolutely bl**dy awful to my eyes as do a lot of the large slabs of EV’s.

It’s almost as though designing a good looking large EV motor ans style are totally incompatible

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol correct, but they all have an ICE engine as the main power unit, they can only run in EV mode for short distances.

As I mentioned the acquisition of the Jaecoo 7 PHEV is intended to be only in EV mode during the week for town to a nearby town commuter. Jaecoo say over 50 miles in EV mode from its 18 kwh battery. Her commute is about 7 miles so I think she will need a mid week charge to operate in EV all working week. Still incredible cheap motoring for that stint and only going to get expensive for those weekend longer trips even with the first 50 being cheap.

Worth a mention also that the most popular ICE car in Europe, the Dacia Sandero and cousin Renault Clio, are popular as they are so very cheap to buy. Not sure how much buyers are bothered what power train it has. Even some of those buyers will be looking at the new 100 hp Spring and seeing it us a bit cheaper to buy and mych cheaper to run if they can put up with range of not much over 200 km and sone other shortcomings but as the cheapest car per mile it is finding many buyers.

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

As I mentioned the acquisition of the Jaecoo 7 PHEV is intended to be only in EV mode during the week for town to a nearby town commuter. Jaecoo say over 50 miles in EV mode from its 18 kwh battery. Her commute is about 7 miles so I think she will need a mid week charge to operate in EV all working week. Still incredible cheap motoring for that stint and only going to get expensive for those weekend longer trips even with the first 50 being cheap.

Worth a mention also that the most popular ICE car in Europe, the Dacia Sandero and cousin Renault Clio, are popular as they are so very cheap to buy. Not sure how much buyers are bothered what power train it has. Even some of those buyers will be looking at the new 100 hp Spring and seeing it us a bit cheaper to buy and mych cheaper to run if they can put up with range of not much over 200 km and sone other shortcomings but as the cheapest car per mile it is finding many buyers.

As indeed are many cars, my sister-in-law's Toyota Yaris Cross hybrid (HEV) is setup the same way, but once that stored power is used, the ICE kicks in and takes over the driving and also recharges the battery at the same time. The point is, however, that the public are voting to go either full on ICE or some form of hybrid, such as PHEV or HEV, not full on BEV.

At least her HEV will always start and run in EV mode as long as there is power in its battery. The PHEV, however, that is not the case, is it? If the car is never plugged in, it will always default to the ICE system and indeed this is what most of the PHEV cars do, the drivers mostly do not plug them in but vote for a PHEV in order to still get all the benefits that are being offered by the HM Government.

I agree about the Dacias, but they are incredibly basic cars when you compare them with even my 2019 Kodiaq, but then, some people don't like power windows, etc., and are very happy with a really basic setup and interiors. That's not for me, though.

Edited 9 April9 Apr by Graham Butcher

I have had a mikd hybrid and self charging hybrid recently and they have their good points but, like PHEVs they have big down sides also. Mild hybrid one did not even notice it had any hybrid gubbins at all really, just quite good mpg.

Our self charging hybrid lots its engines management and became a nightmare, after having one of its wheel changed. Too complex abd I gather the bew buyer rejected it after it went wrong another 3 times.

PHEVs also massively compromised. Loads more weight, less boot space than otherwise. Shocking mileage per kwh in electric mode as almost never have heat pumps so really bad in cold weather.

If fuel became very cheap again I would go for a nice simply pure petrol car. My, well daughter no 2 car I gave to her, Mk 4 Clio, 0.9 litre 3 cylinder turbo, would do better mpg than the 1.6 naturally aspirated hybrid Clio we also had. Yes hybrid was nicer to drive, lots of low down grunt from the electric motor. But my conclusion was all electric was the better way in so many respects and the recent fall in charging costs plus the big hikes in fossil fuel costs endorse that decesion.

Now I do know a few people who needed to oft do hundreds of miles a day sometimes and theurcdecesion to stay with diesel is partly understandable. I wish I coukd hear they tried a TESLA model 3 or Y, best selling cars in the world, but don't think they did. There are other alternatives, as they say if you don't like sport there is always David Colman, (Monty Python i seem to recall), but there is BMW, Merc and Polestar who do EVs with almost 500 mile range after topping up for less than a tenner at home or twenty quid out on the road rather than over a hundred pounds !

14 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

At least her HEV will always start and run in EV mode as long as there is power in its battery.

That's not the case with my future brother-in-law's Yaris Cross hybrid - if the 12V battery goes flat (which it has done several times if not used for a couple of weeks - he's been in hospital a lot recently) then it won't "start". He's become good friends with Toyota's home recovery people!

He's taken it to his local Toyota dealer who say they've seen this problem a lot and the only advice they can give is to keep the 12V battery on a trickle charger! It sounds to me like the same problem that some early Octavia 4 HEV's had where the 12V is only charged from the ICE and not also from the HV battery, so repeated short trips just result in two dischcarged batteries?

13 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I wish I coukd hear they tried a TESLA model 3 or Y, best selling cars in the world

... until Musk aligned himself with the Orange Baby!

My future stepson had a Tesla as his previous company car, when he first got it many passers by commented on his nice car but more recently a typical comment was "shame about the car".