I would say on 12000 miles a year, if you're doing longer trips, let's say you can get there, but can't get back so 50% of the miles are at higher rates.

So 6000 miles at 50p (Average of fast and rapid charging) and 6000 miles at 8p.

 

For an EV doing 12000 miles @ 3.5  miles per kWh = £857 + £138 = £995 or 8.3p per mile

If you drive a diesel reasonably but normally getting 12.5MPL (About 56MPG) then 12000 miles = £[email protected]/l or 15.2p per mile.

 

Clear win for the EV on fuel alone.

 

You then have the point around the higher cost of an EV is about £200 per month more on rental vs an fairly equivalent diesel, so £2400/12000=20p per mile.

Diesel you have £165 tax, lets say an extra £100 on service a year and £35 being hit for a couple of trips into diesel hating towns (£300/12000=2.5p/mile)

 

That's about 28p per mile vs 18 per mile for diesel, so actually it's not making the most sense, particularly if you already own a car...

 

If you have solar, then the cost is about 7p per mile average.

If you don't use rapid chargers more than once in a blue moon, but use 7/22kW destination chargers then the 50p can come down to 40p average for the 6000 high price miles and you're at 5.5p per mile...

 

So 25p per mile vs 18p per mile...

 

If you can get nearly all your miles on cheap/free electric (which is still worth 5p for SEG export money), then you're much closer, but even so...

Long and short it comes mostly down to the cost of the EV vs the equivalent diesel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 July, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

£200 extra, that is the entire cost of car I'd would have been willing to pay!

Is that £400 for diesel to £600 for EV? 

 

It's not quite 25p vs 18p per mile, there's also the base monthly cost. Probably more like 75p vs 68p, which is easier to swallow for home charging convenience. 

On 20/07/2022 at 09:46, Luckypants said:

Osprey have announced a hefty price increase to 66p/kWh from 25th July for PAYG and 2nd August for account customers. However, at present it will still be 50p/kWh through the Bonnet app.

 

20% discount if one uses ones Octopus Juice card and it get rolled in with home cost and DD. 

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

£200 extra, that is the entire cost of car I'd would have been willing to pay!

Is that £400 for diesel to £600 for EV? 

 

Most cars I look at the lease difference vs a petrol or diesel and an equivalent 150-250 mile EV is at least £200.

 

Don’t forget most people will be buying new EVs as there are not that many used and even those that are used are very expensive now.

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

It's not quite 25p vs 18p per mile, there's also the base monthly cost. Probably more like 75p vs 68p, which is easier to swallow for home charging convenience. 

What are you making the monthly base cost you mention from as I cannot understand what it’s coming from? 
 

EV insurance is currently more here, but it’s not a huge difference now. 

There are thousands of used and ex demonstrator EV's  for sale in the UK from the cheapest models to the most expensive and newest.

There are crazy asking prices but they are not being snapped up and are advertised for quite a while. 

 

There are cars coming into the used market all the time as plenty have been registered in the UK to help manufacturers meet their average emissions they need. 

 

 

Edited 21 July, 20223 yr by roottoot

They’re both more than a new one though George 😕
 

The reserved GT Line S is way over RRP, in the standard colour and doesn’t mention the only option, which is a £900 heat pump. 
 

I mean look at the price of this 4 year old up…

 

 

It’s twice the price of a slightly newer, slightly higher miles petrol.

 

£8000 at 10MPL/45MPG is 4000L at £2/L or 40,000 miles. That’s probably more than an average UP will do in 4 years.

Edited 21 July, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

People will by them or not but it is not the case that there is a shortage of used EV's if you want one, just the asking prices and even the price to pay might be ridiculous. 

 

That is much the same across the car trade though. 

10 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

What are you making the monthly base cost you mention from as I cannot understand what it’s coming from? 

Monthly base cost is based on £600 for EV and £400 for petrol/diesel as per your post saying £200 difference. 

£200 difference comes out to cost 25p/mile. So base cost double that would probably be double that in terms of cost/mile. Hence 50p/mile base cost. 

 

Used car market is crazy right now. Even more crazy for EV's. Good if I want to make a case for depreciation vs my diesel, but bad for anyone looking to purchase. It's not normal and very difficult to make comparisons. As keyboard warrior, I would only compare new cars. 

13 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

20% discount if one uses ones Octopus Juice card and it get rolled in with home cost and DD. 

 

Only get the discount if charging between 7pm and 11pm. It is not a discount across the board and the discounted price puts it at around the same price as everyone else, 52.8p. Bonnet PAYG rate is 50p at the moment, so the cheapest way to charge at Osprey chargers. (unless you have bought a Bonnet refill, which is cheaper still)

And I agree that the price of used EVs is crazy, mainly due to the daft waiting time for a new car. I've been offered more than I paid for mine and its 16 months old and 16k miles. I recently thought I'd be able to change out our Citigo for a second hand electric Mii/Up/Citigo until I saw the prices being asked - even 3 year old ones are asking more than new price (two year wait for a new one)

Edited 22 July, 20223 yr by Luckypants

It’s sad that comparing new for new an EV barely makes sense financially as if you ignore the car costs it’s a winner.

 

As for used prices yes complete madness.

 

 

As has been said, most people will look at the monthly cost. My ID.4 costs more per month than our previous Karoq, but less to run. When we went for the ID.4 I thought the running cost savings would offset the increased monthly cost and this has been proved by experience. Broadly speaking going EV has been cost neutral for me.

I have got one coming on the same basis, but between interest rate changes, demand, availability and price increases  if I was to order the same car today it would be nearly £200 more a month 😮😮😮

 

That means the difference to me was £100 a month but now it’s nearly £300.

We own our car outright so there is a little bit of doing the right thing too.

 

So yes it made sense, I’m just not so sure it does today with higher buy prices and higher running prices. Still a slowdown blip would let them sort out charger numbers before a glut. 

There are lots of EV commercials & Hybrid Taxis (Using DC chargers) going on the roads now and needing public charging.

EV Van / Minibuses & Taxi manufacturers seem to be producing and importing lots. 

Edited 22 July, 20223 yr by roottoot

Something that just occurred to me as my nearest ultra rapid charger is Flint Mountain Supercharger..... Osprey's 66p / kWh makes Tesla's price for non-Tesla cars seem reasonable at 60p/kWh. Who'd have thought that? 🤷‍♂️

 

Edited 22 July, 20223 yr by Luckypants

I mean at 60p suddenly Tesla makes sense.

 

Im surprised gridserve or someone similar hasn’t come up with a virtual electric tariff or export tariff where they buy the kWh cheap from home owners and trade them off against their consumption.

15 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I mean at 60p suddenly Tesla makes sense.

 

Im surprised gridserve or someone similar hasn’t come up with a virtual electric tariff or export tariff where they buy the kWh cheap from home owners and trade them off against their consumption.

 

If and when faced with such prices I just back off the crusiing speed from 70 mph to around 50/55 mph and hence improved my miles per kWh from 4-ish to 5 miles kWh plus change my route to a more direct A and B road route so I either do not have to stop as my range goes up from about 200 miles to 250 mile so that I either do not need to stop only have to take the bare smallest number of kWh from those expensive on route chargers.

Ventured as far as Gatwick and Heathrow from Worcester and still not paid a penny to on route charging having only ever use cheap home charging or free destination charging at client or work destination chargers and long may it continue both for my pocket and the Zoe's battery life health.  

 

Many business users / company car drivers and those that have their car and expense of fueling / charging covered or helped might well not be concerned at the costs.

 

I do wish that people driving EV's do get to know about their cars, charging speeds etc, type of chargers.

 

I would pay less to charge at a public charger if it is less than the cost of my home electricity.

Some do have cheap home tariffs & wallboxes and good deals,

but too me it is ridiculous how different the standard tariff can be around the UK for day time / night time.

 

................

Actually, they have a 32.6 kWh battery, 28.9 kWh usable.

Max charging speed is 49kW. 

 

 

 

50% + more range will make a huge difference to these and could have more of them being driven in the UK if BMW can build them.

also built as a Clubman.

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 July, 20223 yr by roottoot

Instavolt have announced another price increase

 

Public charger need to pay 20% VAT? 

https://instavolt.co.uk/instavolt-announces-updated-charging-tariff/

 

Seems rather unfair for those who can't charge at home. 

3 hours ago, Luckypants said:

Instavolt have announced another price increase

 

 

So if you're 60% cheap to 40% on public chargers and low rate overnight at 7.5p for 1000 miles:

 

Diesel is say £1.80 /l = 18p per mile assuming only 50mpg, which is laughably low mpg. = £163/1000 miles

EV based on 60:40 overnigh cheap to public based on 3m/kWh (also a bit low) = £15 + £88 = £103/1000 miles

 

Still winning, but over an average of 10k miles you're talking a £500 saving which doesn't even begin to cover the lease costs.

 

Of course if you can't get overnight cheap and are paying say 45p/kWh at home and no public charging and getting 3.3m/kWh then it's bad at £150

Come October/January when we're all paying 60-80p/kWh or more it's suddenly getting very shaky:

 - £181/1000 miles @ 60p and 3.3 m/kWh

 - £242/1000 miles @ 80p and 3.3m/kWh

 

Both with zero public charging, which of course is likely to increase again and could even hit £1 per kWh by then.

 

 

  

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Public charger need to pay 20% VAT? 

https://instavolt.co.uk/instavolt-announces-updated-charging-tariff/

 

Seems rather unfair for those who can't charge at home. 

 

I'm fairly certain we're going to have to start looking to hydrogen for range vehicles as cost per unit of electric goes up and combined with time to charge makes it unattractive.

 

Would be better of course if electric generation was sold to users and only excess sold to the global market. Perhaps the political types might do something about that?

Edited 10 August, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

7 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I'm fairly certain we're going to have to start looking to hydrogen for range vehicles as cost per unit of electric goes up and combined with time to charge makes it unattractive.

Hydrogen will be even more expensive than electricity. There's just no way green hydrogen can be cheaper, because it uses twice amount electricity to generate it. Then there's extra storage and transport cost. 

 

Only cheap way to drive is to be flexible enough so you let the cars soak up excess grid capacity. Current brute force supply-must-meet-demand method just does not work at all. 

Petrol, diesel, LPG, Hydrogen is certainly cheaper now than running an EV if you need to charge at InstaVolt. 

 

For me that would be 45 kWh @ 66 pence so £29.70 to get 150 miles if lucky.

 

 

Edited 10 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

6 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Hydrogen will be even more expensive than electricity. There's just no way green hydrogen can be cheaper, because it uses twice amount electricity to generate it. Then there's extra storage and transport cost. 

 

Only cheap way to drive is to be flexible enough so you let the cars soak up excess grid capacity. Current brute force supply-must-meet-demand method just does not work at all. 

But hydrogen electric doesn’t have to come from the grid via the global market. Hence unwanted and not inflated by the grid price being related to gas.

 

FWIW petrol seems to be getting more buyers due to higher upfront cost and a 10 year payback rate of an EV. If petrol is cheaper to buy and run… plus you save an hour a journey for long runs…most people won’t go EV.

Germany has big issues coming up and will need to burn coal, as the UK will.

 

Tonight the guy on the Channel 4 news talking about Germany was saying how they are getting their gas storage filled up and are getting on with building the hydrogen storage.

 

This is the issue in the UK or actually England, they are not building the storage, turning off the wind turbines because the National Grid does not need the electricity and the green hydrogen is not being produced.

 

The onshore and offshore windfarms are built or due on line and the countries of the UK have not the storage for it in EV's and battery storage in homes, businesses or battery farms. 

 

That is how the Oil & Gas producers have been happy for things to go and the income the nations have has has not been getting spent on energy security. 

 

 

2018.

 

 

 

Edited 10 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

 

21 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

But hydrogen electric doesn’t have to come from the grid via the global market. Hence unwanted and not inflated by the grid price being related to gas.

Sorry, but building infrastructure solely for green hydrogen production does not make any sense what so ever. Every single renewable must be on the grid regardless whether the grid has the demand for it or not. Need as much renewables as possible, because currently we are still mostly gas powered.

 

The national grid have the ability to transport power across the nation and to other countries. Building a renewable to sell the power and meet demand makes perfect sense. The current problem is that renewables are not being fully utilised due to demand not matching supply. The solution is ensure everyone plugs in their EV when parked and have its charging controlled by the energy company (eg octopus intelligent). When EV and home batteries can be automated and "smart", it saves everyone money on large storage infrastructure and removes the expensive daily demand surges that pushes up the average unit price.