2 hours ago, Gmac983 said:

@wyx087

I don’t won’t seem negative about heat pumps as there some success stories out there. Would just like to hear of some more happy customers rather than all the negative ones I am aware off. My parents are currently weighing up there options on this as are currently off grid gas and have solar installed already. Also it is something my wife and I are looking aswell but do not want to make the level of investment currently require for this on a home we will not likely stay in for the rest of our lives. 

It's right to do all the research beforehand and make sure the trades people is doing a proper job by knowing most of the ins and outs of new tech.

 

Currently heat pump are squarely in early adopter phase, just as EV's were in early 2010's. The cost benefit are questionable if not combined with other stuff (as per my worked example earlier) and you can be sure there will be newer better products in next few years.

 

So for me, it's something I'd only consider if my boiler is actually breaking down. Otherwise just like you, I'm doing the research and trying to judge the opportune time to jump in. Don't want to be too late and pay expensive gas, but don't want to be too early and have to change the heat pump for more efficient one in a few years time.

 

But all signs point to a promising replacement for boiler, as long as the house is well insulated and radiators are sized correctly to allow low flow temperature.

Edited 11 August, 20223 yr by wyx087

Manufacturing of Batteries isfully under control of China and they/Russia are in control of many of the metals that go into them.

 

Batteries need replacing every 10-15 years in commercial systems.

 

Batteries are extremely difficult to recycle.

 

Batteries are just expensive per kWh

 

Mining of material for as well as recycling of batteries often involves lots of very poor or child labour. If conditions were good costs would be unaffordable.

mining is devastating to the local environment too.

 

When they come up with a lighter, safer , cheaper more environmentally sound battery I might be more convinced.

Not everyone can survive on 150 miles and 45 minutes rest break. Most people I know won’t go EV but would go hydrogen. So your choice is ICE of FCEV which would you rather picked?

 

Important materials for batteries manufactured are come from the UK thanks to North Sea oil & gas. 

 

But then the UK Government have ideas above their station.

http://news.sky.com/story/thousands-of-jobs-at-risk-as-government-falls-behind-plans-to-build-battery-industry-12539007

 

 

It is a dirty job, but someone has to do it. 

 

 

 

 

 

MfG are putting their prices up from tomorrow. Matching Instavolt.

 

https://twitter.com/MotorFuelGroup/status/1559163101622280192?s=20&t=vNTLNnKVWuvDVZktMmlv8w

Edited 15 August, 20223 yr by Luckypants

On 11/08/2022 at 15:47, Breezy_Pete said:

Could be informative to get @Aspman's latest thoughts on his heat pump installation as unit prices are heading skywards.

 

Couldn't tell you much about installation really, ours was part of the build spec.

 

But really an ASHP needs to be the core of a building design, you decide that for a heating system THEN you build the house around that.

Houses need to be ultra insulated and very draft proof which contradicts directly with clean air regulations from planning. So we have lovely thick double gazing with bloody great holes in them for air.

ASHP needs to be coupled with a mechanical heat recovery system to allow the air to circulate without loosing energy.
I'm currently trying to figure out how to storm proof bathroom extractors for winter.

We had the pump serviced recently which might help efficiency, the engineer spotted that the flow rates on the manifold did not match specification. He's corrected that. Also spotted that the system doesn't have enough antifreeze in it. Brilliently these systems use a non-toxic antifreeze which is about 4x the price of glycol and they need about 170l of it. We'll need to put in another 40-70l to get it up to spec (£300). Ther service itself was £200 +£100 for the tuning work.

 

In teh summer it's actually been cheap to run with the heatig off, it produces hot water very efficiently, We get a tank (150l) for about £1.50.
But genuinely when my fix deal goes our winter bills will be terrifying, we could easily see £1000 a month. I'll be buying more wood for the log burner soon.

 

What will really help is decoupling the electricity price from gas. We are a renewable only customer but see no benefit from that. ASHP will always seem stupid until the price of electricity starts to match gas, the the efficiencies in the sysem might actually start to make sense for people.

 

Edited 3 September, 20223 yr by Aspman
duplication

17 hours ago, Aspman said:

 

Couldn't tell you much about installation really, ours was part of the build spec.   But really an ASHP needs to be the core of a building design, you decide that for a heating system THEN you build the house around that.  Houses need to be ultra insulated and very draft proof which contradicts directly with clean air regulations from planning. So we have lovely thick double gazing with bloody great holes in them for air.  ASHP needs to be coupled with a mechanical heat recovery system to allow the air to circulate without loosing energy.  I'm currently trying to figure out how to storm proof bathroom extractors for winter.

We had the pump serviced recently which might help efficiency, the engineer spotted that the flow rates on the manifold did not match specification. He's corrected that. Also spotted that the system doesn't have enough antifreeze in it. Brilliently these systems use a non-toxic antifreeze which is about 4x the price of glycol and they need about 170l of it. We'll need to put in another 40-70l to get it up to spec (£300). Ther service itself was £200 +£100 for the tuning work.

 

In teh summer it's actually been cheap to run with the heatig off, it produces hot water very efficiently, We get a tank (150l) for about £1.50.
But genuinely when my fix deal goes our winter bills will be terrifying, we could easily see £1000 a month. I'll be buying more wood for the log burner soon.What will really help is decoupling the electricity price from gas. We are a renewable only customer but see no benefit from that. ASHP will always seem stupid until the price of electricity starts to match gas, the the efficiencies in the sysem might actually start to make sense for people.

 

 

My brother has a ASHP in his new build in Cambs and I do not think he has much of a clue about it. The heat lump tech has its own little room within the house.

He has built up a few hundred quid in credit during the summer but if he has not got his energy rates got sorted out like my sister and myself ie I suppose he could be trapped in to paying 60p, 70p, 80p per kWh which is crazy as my higher day time rate is only 40p kWh for over the next year, 7.5p for the four hours between 0030 and 0430. 

 

 I doubt he knows about the chemicals etc although there is some in this special ASHP room although there are sticker on the equipment and quite a manual for the system which would be Greek to my bother.

 

I would love a Heat pump but are just looking at the small portable almost room sized units which could look after most the downstairs.

 

 

Of the four people at work who have switched to ASHP, all have said the costs of heating and hot water have increased significantly since installation, with one almost doubling...   And that's before the added influence of the recent increase in electricity prices.  Its absolutely put me off going near one at any time in the near future

3 hours ago, skomaz said:

Of the four people at work who have switched to ASHP, all have said the costs of heating and hot water have increased significantly since installation, with one almost doubling...   And that's before the added influence of the recent increase in electricity prices.  Its absolutely put me off going near one at any time in the near future

 

it all sounds, a device/system that gives you four times as much energy out than you put in  (the other 3/4 come from the outside and hence cools down Planet Earth).

Plus the government will give you up to £5k towards the installation.

So many stories of the installers spoiling the ship for a hapeth of tar, undersized component or so over-specing the system it still costs a fortune.

Got to be a better way and perhaps experience as well as published user satisfaction will show us consumers the optimum way forward.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah the basic maths means that ASHP will never be cheaper than gas.

 

 The efficiencies are statistical snake oil but being very simplistic heat pumps are UP TO 3x (300%)as efficient at heating water within the system than a gas boiler. 
 

So (physicists trick of a perfect model) imagine it uses 300 units of energy to heat a tank of hot water using gas. 
 

A heat pump at perfect efficiency should manage to heat the same tank of water using 100 units of energy.

 

 So super efficient and much cheapness yeah? No.

 

 The heat pump is using electricity not gas so each unit of energy costs (at least) 4x as much. Using the upcoming price cap for figures 52p for electric and 15p for gas)

 

300 units of gas will cost - £45.00

100 units of electricity will cost £52.00

 

 so you’ve spent £20k on a new system which is super efficient and green etc and despite it using 1/3 the energy of gas you pay £7 more or 15%

 

if the temperature is 0 efficiency drops to about 2x so the difference becomes £59.00 or a 133% increase over gas.

 

But it’s actually worse than that. At low temperature to prevent icing the ashp will reverse flow and run defrost cycles on itself which is electricity you’re not using to heat your house.

 

 Heat pumps work on gradually warming your house as well so need to be on 24/7 unless the hot water is on. So you can’t take advantage of cheap rate electric.

 

 Weather changeable? Well you’re Screwed with heat pumps again. The slab takes about two days to warm through like a massive storage heater so  you need to plot your heating to that schedule. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Aspman said:

So you can’t take advantage of cheap rate electric.

Well, if you get a home battery......

 

 

The problem with heat pump being more expensive to run is more to do with the broken electricity pricing. Renewables are cheap, gas powered fast-reacting plants are expensive. Electricity price most people pays are based on averages. If prices can be made to vary throughout the day, and the heat pump can be made to utilise cheaper periods smartly using the house as a large thermal mass, it should be possible to have cheaper heating than gas.

 

Certainly, hot water over cheap 7.5p off-peak at 3x efficiency means it is 1/6 cost of using gas based on October gas prices. Store that cheap leccy in battery and off-set by solar throughout the day means it shouldn't be too expensive.

 

Everything has to work together as a system. Only installing heat pump by itself, or retrofitting without good insulation and no careful heat loss calculations means expensive inefficient systems.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Well, if you get a home battery......

The problem with heat pump being more expensive to run is more to do with the broken electricity pricing. Renewables are cheap, gas powered fast-reacting plants are expensive. Electricity price most people pays are based on averages. If prices can be made to vary throughout the day, and the heat pump can be made to utilise cheaper periods smartly using the house as a large thermal mass, it should be possible to have cheaper heating than gas.  Certainly, hot water over cheap 7.5p off-peak at 3x efficiency means it is 1/6 cost of using gas based on October gas prices. Store that cheap leccy in battery and off-set by solar throughout the day means it shouldn't be too expensive.

Everything has to work together as a system. Only installing heat pump by itself, or retrofitting without good insulation and no careful heat loss calculations means expensive inefficient systems.

 

Spot on.

What I do not understand is the lack of take up of tariffs like Octopus GO.

Are Octopus not allowing masses to join the tarriff ?

I did not even have to prove I even had an EV as I recall, maybe I did but do not remember it.

I did to get the £500 grant subsidy for the charger ie send pictures of the car on the drive etc.

 

It has not seemed super hard to use half my lecky in the 4 hour night time period. A couple of time clocks for the lecky so the washing machine and tumble dryer switch on then and luckily both my son and I are night birds and spend some of this 0030 to 0430 aware and sleep 0430 to 0900 or later in my son's case as he works afternoons and evening rather than mornings.

 

Wondering how I can help my brother.  A powerful battery device/bank has got to be worth it and there should be energy consultants offering this sort of analysis and cost saying and payback period for this heat pump setup.  Presumably we are talking 10, 12 GWh plus rather than just 2, 5, or even 7 kWh needed each day  ?

 

It’s a lot of money to put in batteries and solar on a big enough scale to make a difference, it’s also probably too late to do it for this winter. Lots of people are doing this. I would too but I’m not sure I’ll be in this property long enough to get the roi. 
 

And you won’t get much Solar gain in winter when its using the most electricity

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Well, if you get a home battery......

 

 

The problem with heat pump being more expensive to run is more to do with the broken electricity pricing. Renewables are cheap, gas powered fast-reacting plants are expensive. Electricity price most people pays are based on averages. If prices can be made to vary throughout the day, and the heat pump can be made to utilise cheaper periods smartly using the house as a large thermal mass, it should be possible to have cheaper heating than gas.

 

Certainly, hot water over cheap 7.5p off-peak at 3x efficiency means it is 1/6 cost of using gas based on October gas prices. Store that cheap leccy in battery and off-set by solar throughout the day means it shouldn't be too expensive.

 

Everything has to work together as a system. Only installing heat pump by itself, or retrofitting without good insulation and no careful heat loss calculations means expensive inefficient systems.

There is nothing wrong in what you say is just a bit of a perfect picture. The market IS broken now which is making for crippling bills

2 hours ago, Aspman said:

There is nothing wrong in what you say is just a bit of a perfect picture. The market IS broken now which is making for crippling bills

 

The conservative party clearly do not believe that it is purely market forces at work.

 

Where our UK government has failed is that certain commodities require to be few as strategic and therefore there needs to be contingency planning.

The UK storage is just enough for 4 of 5 days.  Europe has one hundred time more storage so enough more quite a few weeks........

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/24/how-uk-energy-policies-have-left-britain-exposed-to-winter-gas-price-hikes

 

The UK’s stores hold enough gas to meet the demand of four to five winter days, or just 1% of Europe’s total available storage. The Netherlands has capacity more than nine times the UK’s, while Germany’s is 16 times the size.

 

They seem reluctant to force the North Sea companies to sell the gas from there at the prices they were selling at a few months ago.  Their costs have not risen that much, a bit more cost for the equipment which is generally priced in USD and the GBP is very weak at the moment so there is a bit more cost in that direction but not double, triple etc.

 

It is a mystery why those of us on green renewable tariffs are paying anything more at all as it is all suppose to be coming from renewables but perhaps the price of wood pellets are up a lot.

 

Lots of sites, perhaps the new Hornsea mega wind farms, are now selling their power at the highest prices they can get so they are now able to pay down their capital debt quicker. Hopefully that will mean they will crack on and build the next stage of the offshore wind farm even earlier.

 

The North sea is going to become one of the most, if not the most, energy source area in the world.

With Hornsea 2 just brought on line great to see there is something we lead on even if it is just for a while before China overtakes as like India has with its economic size.

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just looked at my highest gas usage month on my smart meter record 1800 kWh Jan 2022. Translates to 60 kWh of gas per day, so I guess ~25 kWh of electricity per day if I were on ASHP. 
 

Other months were around 1200 kWh. This averages out to be 10 kWh electricity per day for ASHP, assuming no de-icing needed in these months. 
 

My 7 years old W-E small solar install of just 2.8kWp over Jan 2022 only produced 55 kWh over the whole month. Only 8% excess, it’s pretty much nothing. Of course, typical solar install today are double the size, so might help a little as it can produce more excess. 
 

I think it is possible to rely on off-peak tariff and home battery to lower costs. In another words, if I were to install the minimum to help with ASHP costs, a 10-15 kWh home battery is best one to choose, should be able to cover most days except single coldest month. 
 

 

Paying for non off-peak prices is best avoided. First time charging my new car yesterday, hadn’t figured out how to stop charging at set time. My home automation to podpoint failed connection to API at perfect time and didn’t cut off charging at 4:30. Paid ~£2 over 4 hour cheap period for first 28 kWh. Another ~£2 for the final 6 kWh. 

@wyx087Looking forward to a pic of your car and your first impressions. 

Enjoy. 

7 hours ago, lol-lol said:etc.

 

It is a mystery why those of us on green renewable tariffs are paying anything more at all as it is all suppose to be coming from renewables but perhaps the price of wood pellets are up a lot.

 

Lots of sites, perhaps the new Hornsea mega wind farms, are now selling their power at the highest prices they can get so they are now able to pay down their capital debt quicker. Hopefully that will mean they will crack on and build the next stage of the offshore wind farm even earlier.

 

The North sea is going to become one of the most, if not the most, energy source area in the world.

With Hornsea 2 just brought on line great to see there is something we lead on even if it is just for a while before China overtakes as like India has with its economic size.

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Apparently there is a market mechanism which  keeps the electricity prices linked to the gas price. So there is some talk about decoupling electric from gas to break that link. 
 

I’m on a 100% renewable tariff soo clearly I’d like to be paying less for making that choice. 
 

unless the politicians take the leap to fix prices we’re basically all fooked. Practically every business will close.

 

 Unfortunately i think the tories are ideologically against anything like that so we’ll see no help till they are bites out in 2yr which will be far too late. 

Price board for the EV charging ......

Morrisons Clacton on sea........

 

^^^  Wunderba and 'Simply Clever'. 

Supermarkets are better IME of letting you find chargers than councils are, certainly with Councils in Scotland.

 

About time that Morrison's sign was how it was at any public charging hubs, chargers. 

In Scotland the Local Authorities can not even put up signage to Public Hubs they build and control.

 

EV Charging hub direction signs on roads showing that there ones would be so easy and i have asked Angus Councils Leader about this on the A90 or off the A90 in towns.

About the only signage i ever see is when there are Park & Ride signs but even when you get to the location you can need to hunt about to find where the chargers actually are and that is not always a quick find. 

 

 

Edited 10 September, 20223 yr by roottoot

£1 per kWh has been broken:

 

Quote

I am writing to notify you that Osprey will be making a price change for our rapid EV charging network to £1 per kWh.

Customers using bank cards or Apple/Google Pay will see this starting to take effect from 15 September as it is rolled out across our charge points.
For Osprey app account customers, sessions made from 1 October will be billed at the new rate.
For up-to-date roaming prices please check the provider website or app.

We welcome the government’s announcement of a 6-month scheme to support businesses alongside the support for residential consumers, however at present we do not have any details of this nor a confirmed timeline for when the support will commence.

To date there has been no cap on the price that businesses pay for electricity. All standard energy pricing is at unprecedented levels, and in addition VAT of 20% is paid to the government on public charging. We have no choice but to increase our price during this difficult time.

The prohibitively high electricity price jeopardises the rollout of UK charging infrastructure, into which networks like us are investing hundreds of thousands of pounds per site to build and maintain. It also poses a risk to the pace of transition to cleaner transport.

We await the details of the government’s support for businesses and their strategy for longer-term market stabilisation, which may result in further changes to our pricing.

We are acutely aware this is a difficult time for consumers and we will bring the price down when we are able to.

Ian Johnston
CEO - Osprey Charging

 

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

£1 per kWh has been broken:

 

 

 

 

OMG. I have £10 of Octopus Juice credit but to think I would use it on an Osprey charger and only get 10 kWh out of it for the £10 is mad.

Not many other chargers as I can use as Octopus Juice has not linked up to other big charger providers yet, Allstar just linked up with Gridserve and I hope to get their card soon but let see how the other providers respond.

 

Osprey looking for a big  bailout like the home suppliers at getting ei to subsidise their prices by 15% of more perhaps ?

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

£1 per kWh has been broken:

 

 

 

 

So that would seem to make it significantly more expensive than a traditional ICE vehicle in terms of distance per £ ??

Lots of money for me who this week because of the weather could get 40 miles for £10 of charging.

 

For those that can get 4.5 miles a kWh so 45 miles for £10 then claim back 20% VAT the £8 is not bad compared to the lower cost of liquid fuel they would use in a nice ICE vehicle.

That would be an ICE that they do not get the same tax breaks on. 

 

So i have 550 miles done this month with £12 paid for charging @ 35 pence a kWh & the rest free at CPS chargers and a few kWh of 7 kW charging at Tesco,

Edited 14 September, 20223 yr by roottoot

The price is crazy and makes me concerned about charging on the go. Luckily I do very little of that. The shocking part is the scale of the rise, 66p to £1, a 50% increase suggests Osprey have messed up buying electricity at a good price or have lost a backer. Either way this looks like panic and I won't be surprised if they go bust. I'm sure they will lose a lot of custom at that price. 

37 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

The price is crazy and makes me concerned about charging on the go. Luckily I do very little of that. The shocking part is the scale of the rise, 66p to £1, a 50% increase suggests Osprey have messed up buying electricity at a good price or have lost a backer. Either way this looks like panic and I won't be surprised if they go bust. I'm sure they will lose a lot of custom at that price. 

 

Perhaps trying to get Liz to subsidise them like the home lecky?