19 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Science is always changing because there are always new technology and thus new discoveries. We cannot say just because the consensus changed or unrelated theories changed, it means new or previous consensus or theories had an agenda or are not to be trusted. Remember, in science, there is no definitive conclusions. Even gravity is just an observation of a theory.

13 hours ago, wyx087 said:

First sentence is about how expert consensus is reached, why it changes overtime.

There's a lot to unpack here.

 

In those statements, you declare that "expert consensus" may or may not reflect reality, and is simply the currently agreed narrative on any given issue by the people who are accepted to be the experts on that issue.

What you don't say, but is also true, is that "expert consensus" may also deliberately not reflect reality, because reality does not serve the greater good. Experts are happy to agree upon a narrative that, while not an accurate representation of reality, is more useful to society and in their opinion causes less harm than reality. My son works for the West Midlands police, and when completing their security checks, one of the questions he had to respond to was "gender". My son's gender is "Man", however this was not an option. My son was obliged to describe his gender as "Male". "Male" is not a gender, yet we went along with the falsehood simply because "the experts" had made it impossible to align his response with reality.

My son's sex is male, his gender is man. Gender is not the same as sex, as the NHS now seem to understand, and are now offering prostate cancer screening to women, and cervical cancer screening to men.

 

My point is, just because experts publicly agree on something, that doesn't make it so, and sometimes the experts know it isn't so, but they say it anyway.

 

13 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Re charging for people without home charger:

 

Pay a monthly subscription for their local street-side charge points (similar to home owners pay one-off install cost). This allows them to access much cheaper off-peak pricing.

I'm not sure how much that would work out a month for people with more than one car.

I also think that given the problems we already have with limited parking kerbside in the UK, I can foresee greater problems when people arrive home with next to no charge in their car and find some random car using "their" charger outside their home.

Such problems will require some adjustment and a whole lot of infrastructure, but are not insurmountable. The cost is always going to be a barrier for some, though.

At the moment, EVs are large a luxury enjoyed by affluent middle-class people. These people often have their cars on a lease scheme, and they are well-maintained.

I have to wonder how long it will be before a significant number of EVs have aged and become less roadworthy.

"Old banger" is probably not an appropriate term for an EV, but I expect there will be a few EV death-traps on the road as the vehicles pass out of the hands of the affluent and into the hands of those on a tight budget.

One thing is for sure, the information that are fed to public are always simplified for consumption. Not everyone understand everything, so it's reasonable to encounter simplifications from reality (eg. the way electricity flows in a circuit). Whether that means there is a false narrative, I don't think so, but you are free to believe whatever you wish. 

 

28 minutes ago, EnterName said:

I'm not sure how much that would work out a month for people with more than one car.

I also think that given the problems we already have with limited parking kerbside in the UK, I can foresee greater problems when people arrive home with next to no charge in their car and find some random car using "their" charger outside their home.

Such problems will require some adjustment and a whole lot of infrastructure, but are not insurmountable. The cost is always going to be a barrier for some, though.

It will be a membership cost for how many sockets in-use at once, no limit to number of cars. 2 cars can be charged via 1 socket membership same way as 2 cars share 1 home charger. 

Idea is that eventually EVERY parking space will have a charger socket available. Either via lampposts now or later via other type of infrastructure. It wouldn't matter where you park, you can plug in overnight. 

The thinking is that the monthly cost is to access near-home public charger at discount rate similar to those rates available to home chargers. Essentially the monthly cost is to pay for installation, maintenance and admin of those public chargers. A standing charge if you will. 

 

For example, current best EV tariff is 10p/kWh for overnight, it controls your car's charging depending on grid conditions, you tell it departure time. 

With a 1 socket membership of £20 per month, you can access a socket that will charge overnight in same way at similar price. You tell it your departure time and it manages charging. 

 

So inequality evaporates. Driveway owners pay equivalent of ~4 years subscription up front to install their home charger. Road-side owners pay the subscription. Both access the same or similar priced electricity and most importantly both are able to lend their car to the grid to support cheap renewables' fluctuations. 

 

Key barrier here is that government need to recognise this type of charging as domestic at 5% VAT rate same as home electricity use. All other barriers are technical. 

 

Essentially, original point of thread is similar to this campaign: 

https://www.faircharge.co.uk/

Actually lots of workers are driving EV,s.  Like the council workers on local authorities around Scotland.  The carers at my mum are in VW e-Ups. E Niro, Leaf etc.   Then nurses and social work are in fleet EV,s or ones leased through schemes.   Then Motability probably own the most EV,s of any group in the UK.   Class and income really does not enter into things.  Plenty minimum wage workers have EV,s.  Non workers, self employed, trades etc.  Taxis and couriers.  Delivery drivers.  Work place, public or private charging.  On or off peak. 

M&S and BP Pulse.      BP Pulse needs to up their game,

i hope M&S bosses know just how hopeless BP Pulse are, chargers and customer services.   M&S customers are a target audience but they expect a good service. 

http://eva.scot/stories/articles/ms-and-bp-pulse-to-install-900-charge-points-in-next-two-years

It would be good if BP Pulse can keep chargers already installed more reliable.    Maybe get BP Pulse employees into EV's but then the chargers they attend are often out of order.

 

 

http://eva.scot/stories/article/mfg-ev-power-network-joins-the-paua-platform

 

 

Edited 16 December, 20223 yr by toot

So he has a light bulb moment, finally.   

Many people have after finding charging there big battery cars at public chargers can be an issue.  The time they sit on chargers being a big part of the issue.

 

 

 

Phev's have it worse in some ways. Nearly all PHEVs that I've come across charge at either 3.7 or 7kW max. So I've a 13 (and a bit) kW/h battery. The last 3kW/h are permanently reserved (I think the heating comes from that reserve too), so the car needs 10kW/h to fully charge and because of, what I assume are the inverter losses and charging not being a 100% efficient procedure, I need around 12.5kW/h to fully charge the car from it's 'flat' condition. Now even if your car has the 32amp charger, it means 2 hours to charge the meagre battery and my car only has the 16amp charger (3.7kW/h) as no 32amp was available at time of purchase, so 4 hours for me. Try justifying that at a service station on the M40, when a plethora of EVs rock up. Basically means I get a PHEV for any outward journey and subsequently, all my local running and return trip are a heavy car lugging around a load of dead batteries. This has meant on occasions things like 200 miles of PHEV and 500 miles of inefficient non-PHEV in a single job. 

3 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

Try justifying that at a service station on the M40

You don't. PHEV are designed for local journey and occasional long trips. They have no place charging en-route because they can continue their journey on dino-juice.

 

DC rapids are a 5-60min (depends on the car) splash and dash affair. To enable BEV to travel beyond their battery range.

 

4 hours ago, toot said:

Many people have after finding charging there big battery cars at public chargers can be an issue.  The time they sit on chargers being a big part of the issue.

Yes, the time people sit on the chargers can be an issue. But at the same time, it depends on the location. Example, you wouldn't expect people to move their car 4am at a hotel. Similarly for AC destination chargers at park and ride, where the owner is miles away....

 

Short term first step, getting everyone with a driveway who can easily own an BEV to not buy fossil fuel powered car. It's the lowest hanging fruit.

The thing about a Phev is it maximises it's dino juice (gotta love those dead dinos) when it has charge. Once the charge has gone it starts to regen off the petrol engine occasionally, which is bad for your pocket and also the environment. So to save us all, PHEVs should be allowed to charge too without aggro. The EV part of a PHEV is an integrated and essential part of the car for efficient running. If I am honest, the more aggro I get, the more I am likely to charge at a service station, or similar.

Needing 4 hours to recharge is not rapid charging. You got to remember there is a difference between AC destination charging and DC rapid charging. Most motorway services are rapid charging only. 

 

I'm not saying PHEV shouldn't charge away from home. I'm saying PHEV shouldn't use rapid charging. 

I can charge at some service stations, especially if they have budget hotels on-site. Some have Tesla chargers in a different part of the car park, but the ones that are usually near the hotels will do 3.7/7 kW/h slow chargers like mine. Still get dirty looks from EV drivers. Until that stops, I won't be rushing my service station breakfast any time soon. 

The hotel car parks are definitely destination charging, did you have to use your own cable? If answer is yes, it's destination charging and it is meant to be used for all plug-in vehicles.

 

I'm talking about the rapid chargers where huge thick cables are on the charger.

PHEV charging on rapid would be similar to parking a BEV at petrol station to buy windscreen washer fluid at the shop.

There are Hotels in Scotland i stay at where getting parked in near impossible if in after all the construction workers arrive at the end of their working day.

There are vans and pick ups all around which is fine, but some take the EV parking and are not EV's some are, and some are plugged in to the AC charging stuff inside the vehicles. 

 

Trump Turnberry has 6 AC sockets on a wall in the car park and the cost to charge is £10 a day / night. 

Edited 5 January, 20233 yr by toot

This was how it was at a Best Western in Dundee.  A great hotel for breakfasts and plenty parking.

OK for charging a hybrid if you were able to get a space and if people bothered to go move them in the middle of the night and someone else bothered to go get plugged in. 

Not sure it is any better now as no more (improved) chargers showing. 

28 kWh per day, more than adequate for local use and get on the way for return journey. Token system is a great idea.

 

Sounds like one of you is eager for people to unplug when done while the other is saying will occupy for longer than necessary? 🙄

35 minutes ago, toot said:

OK for charging a hybrid if you were able to get a space and if people bothered to go move them in the middle of the night and someone else bothered to go get plugged in. 

 

1 hour ago, Lady Elanore said:

I won't be rushing my service station breakfast any time soon. 

 

Over stay charging is the best of all.  With proper signage.

at least 45 minutes, 60 or 70 minutes as a max. 

 

Sadly at Edinburgh Aitport park & ride the Rest of Edinburgh City Council chargers the Stickers on chargers are pathetic, and many do not see the small print.

£30 after 30 minutes on the 50 kW ones.    (3 hours on the 22 kW( 

There are those that have charged and gone and will find out later, and then those that see too late so keep on charging since they are already paying the £30 penalty.

Edited 5 January, 20233 yr by toot

Autocar publish some guff. 

 (now they bring up the figure of around 90% charging at home.)

 

http://autocar.co.uk/car-news/advice-electric-cars/charging-electric-car-apartment-or-flat

 

I wonder if they talked to Grant Shapps or Michael Gove about levelling up and just run an electric cable across the pavement.

Be sure to not leave it longer than required if charging your hybrid for hours or your EV from a domestic socket. 

Edited 7 January, 20233 yr by toot

If the car is sitting about a 7kW charger is as good as anything.  

The lady was just trying this one out and planned on a quicker charge once heading on her way.

 

Lovely car. 

Charging on a slow charger this morning waiting for the rapid to become available.  Same as I had to twice yesterday.   160 miles took 5 hours and late last night could not get a rapid charge as some old guy wanted 100% in his car free charging even though he stays local and has a home charger.   So parked last night with 30% and need to get charged up to have at least 110 miles in very stormy weather.    One charger 6 miles away out of order for months now.  Yesterday at 2 hubs there were chargers out of order that have been so for weeks.  All have been reported often but never repaired.   Perth and Kinross, Stirling and South Ayrshire.   Great demand for public charging and maintenance is pathetic.  Even if they doubled chargers there are never enough rapids.    Edit, 50 minutes after I arrived he unplugged his old Leaf.  No idea how long he was charging at a slow speed.  So now 70 mins later I have only 64% charge.   Total crap, but I do need to keep charging until the speed drops to 11kWh because I know getting charged later will require luck.  I will pay to charge if chargers available but there are none near where I will be.  Taking my petrol car would make more sense if I did no to have loads of time. 

Edited 10 January, 20233 yr by toot

2 hours ago, toot said:

as some old guy wanted 100% in his car free charging even though he stays local and has a home charger. 

Grrrr.... free does not work, it breeds the greedy. 

 

When are Scotland gov funded chargers going to require payment? 

There are 32 Local Authorities, they or their Council Tax / Business Tax payers fund them.

Lots were funded from EU money and that has gone, the Scottish & UK Government are funding stuff they are committed to, 

but now it falls on Councils to pay for maintenance & new stuff they plan and install.  There are still grants though.

 

Perth & Kinross is now 35 pence a kWh.  60 minute time limit, £10 penalty.

Same as Edinburgh City, but 30 minute limit and £30 penalty. 

Stirling Council still free. No time limit.   

 Their Minibuses plugged into 43kW AC chargers getting 11 kW, when only 3 chargers 43 kW chargers (1 of those was broken) and plenty 11 /22's right beside them.

http://chargeplacescotland.org/charge-point-tariffs

 

.......................

Nobody else came past when i was on the Rapid.

I was 49 mins on the 7kW, 5.65 kWh

36 mins on the 50 kW before it cut out. 17.29 kWh

51 mins plugged in again & 14.2 kWh.

 

That took me to 98 % and ready for later on driving.

 

BBC Radio Scotland running stuff on Public Charging, probably from what the RAC has said about the cost, as in the Auto Car article. 

Edited 10 January, 20233 yr by toot

When the guy came back he said 'there were no cars here when i parked'.  Genuis.

 

 

 

Looks like a lot of Genie chargers..... not most well known for reliability.

I feel currently trunk road charging hub seems to be in fashion at the moment, rightly so. More spread-out single or dual charger locations tucked away in supermarket or car parks seems to have been forgotten, unfortunately. 

I agree with his initial sentiment, use destination charging as much as possible. The more people find ways to plug in when not using the vehicle, not think in petrol station mentality, the less pressure is put onto rapid chargers. 

Maybe when there is some degree of Levelling up then around the UK there might be a more equal share of spending around the British Isles on charging.

 

Lots of people with a Smart Meter and home chargers that normally charge between 5-6 pm might not today to save some money, or maybe not bother.

Maybe in the cold south this tea time there might be those that consider the National Grid and not Rapid Charge at private or commercial chargers.

Seeing as the electricity comes from where ever and apparently the wind is not producing enough electricity.

There's a few great solutions to people without driveway, a few seconds from this point:

 

And calculation in the video shows as long as don't exclusively use public rapid charging, EV is still cheapest.