My garage currently has what I think could be an old EV charger in it ?  pics attatched.

 

My question is: Could a Sparky take power for an 7kw EV charger from the current wiring to it ?

 

 

The power rating of that socket is more than you'd require for an EV but the cable appears to be just twin+earth. Most EV cables have data too.

Thats just a 240v type industrial socket protected by 40A RCD, used for larger welders and 240v equipment

2 hours ago, Mr Grump said:

My question is: Could a Sparky take power for an 7kw EV charger from the current wiring to it ?

 

Yes assuming that the cable is 6mm T + E which it looks to be and that it is correctly wired and protected upstream at the fuseboard which we can't see.

Thanks guys, if Mr Sparky only needs to disconnect that and move the wire to an EV charger mounted on the wall near it, it should be a straightforward and therefore low cost option

Edited 4 December, 20223 yr by Mr Grump

As JR replied, important that it is correctly protected at the consumer unit for example and wiring ran correct and secured appropriately,

If I was installing that type of socket from scratch Single wire armoured cable would be used, you could always protect the PVC wire with conduit when retro fitting the charging point

Edited 4 December, 20223 yr by Crucian
Accuracy

It's frowned upon to install EV charger directly to this type of socket. Reason being unless you have an earthing rod, earthing protection will not be insufficient.

However, this is the cheapest (don't do this, no O-PEN fault protection!) way for you to get 7 kW charging, just buy those 2 and hang it on the wall. Compatible with all Type 2 cars (all today's EV except very early Leaf and a few other early EV's)

https://shop.tesla.com/en_gb/product/mobile-connector

https://shop.tesla.com/en_gb/product/blue-adapter---16a_32a-

 

Have a look at install guide for podpoint. I think it will be straight forward install for you, considering you already have Type A RCBO, all other required protection are built-in to UK market (eg. not Tesla) charge points.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/podpoint-website/PP-D-130012-15-Solo-Smart-Charger-Install-Guide-1.pdf

 

So Mr Sparky will need to ensure up-stream wiring is okay, remove this 32A commando unit, fit a new mini-fuse-box with similar Type A RCBO, wire up the new charge point. Highly recommend you only choose charge point for UK market: Podpoint, Indra smart pro, Zappi, Ohme pro,

50 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

It's frowned upon to install EV charger directly to this type of socket. Reason being unless you have an earthing rod, earthing protection will not be insufficient.

 

Can you expand on that or do you have a source for your claim?

 

I am assuming that the connector has an earth terminal, the earth conductor section on a T + E cable is less than the live and neutral but enough to ensure that any fault current will not create a voltage above the required threshold before the circuit breaker trips. That is why it does not need to be the same cross section.

 

In any case with an upstream RCD device in the fuseboard earthing is pretty much irrelevant.

 

My word I am really struggling to find the correct terms in English for electrical items, its not as if its a new trade I have learned since leaving the UK (like dry lining for instance) where I may only have known the French terms, it was my business!!

Edited 4 December, 20223 yr by J.R.

@J.R. - have a google for PENS fault protection.

 

Just for example: https://www.romatech.co.uk/blog/page/view/ev_charging_pen_fault_earth_rod

 

edit:

Second link that's pretty clear to me: https://www.mylights.co.uk/images/pdf/TruePEN-Explain-Doc.pdf

Edited 4 December, 20223 yr by langers2k

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

It's frowned upon to install EV charger directly to this type of socket. Reason being unless you have an earthing rod, earthing protection will not be insufficient.

However, this is the cheapest (don't do this, no O-PEN fault protection!) way for you to get 7 kW charging, just buy those 2 and hang it on the wall. Compatible with all Type 2 cars (all today's EV except very early Leaf and a few other early EV's)

https://shop.tesla.com/en_gb/product/mobile-connector

https://shop.tesla.com/en_gb/product/blue-adapter---16a_32a-

 

Have a look at install guide for podpoint. I think it will be straight forward install for you, considering you already have Type A RCBO, all other required protection are built-in to UK market (eg. not Tesla) charge points.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/podpoint-website/PP-D-130012-15-Solo-Smart-Charger-Install-Guide-1.pdf

 

So Mr Sparky will need to ensure up-stream wiring is okay, remove this 32A commando unit, fit a new mini-fuse-box with similar Type A RCBO, wire up the new charge point. Highly recommend you only choose charge point for UK market: Podpoint, Indra smart pro, Zappi, Ohme pro,

 

The intent wasn't to take power from the socket, more to see if the wiring to the socket could be used (remove socket and put charger there) or if It would need to be fully re- wired.

Either way it should be fairly straightforward for Mr. Sparky as the mains fusebox is in the garage

Edited 4 December, 20223 yr by Mr Grump

19 minutes ago, Mr Grump said:

 

The intent wasn't to take power from the socket, more to see if the wiring to the socket could be used (remove socket and put charger there) or if It would need to be fully re- wired.

Either way it should be fairly straightforward for Mr. Sparky as the mains fusebox is in the garage

Where is the in-coming supply? EV charge point usually add a henley block between meter and fusebox, then add a connection to a mini-fusebox with the correct type of RCBO followed by wiring to EVSE.

 

At any rate, a good charge point is ~£600 and installation + testing will be £200 cheapest with a mate, might as well go with "standard install" offered by big EVSE manufacturers? Keeping the commando socket in-case you need it for other (cough_tax_cough) reasons.

 

Unless you can get a good EVSE for free? The cost difference between buying your own + employing Mr Sparky Vs EVSE install package deals will be minimum. Podpoint installed is £950 IIRC.

I've been researching these because I plan on giving my parents the old podpoint that has broken wifi module, a 100% dumb unit now. Hopefully they can get Mr Sparky to do the install for less than £300 total. Hence I have rough idea how to do everything.

There are a couple of chargers I can find for just under £500, so was thinking if the wiring was straight forward another £150 would sort out the Sparky ? (no idea on rates, just a guess).

Podpoint tethered charger comes in at £999.

The untethered is £949, but presumably I would then need a cable at £179 ?

I presume by commando socket , you are refering to the existing 3 pin box on the wall, no idea of tax reasons as I am not self employed. 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

@Mr GrumpWhat car or cars are you going to be charging?

As far as the £179 you mention if you were not getting a charger with a tethered cable. 

Are you not going to have a Type 2 cable coming with what ever car you get?

No idea what comes with TBH, I am just starting out on the research phase of how viable is an EV for me at the minute.

Or if it does come with cable, what will the other end fit ?

Was looking at possibly a Cupra Born, but like I say early on in the viability stage ATM.

 

The cable you would carry about in the car will be Type 2 to Type 2 to use on 7 kW and 11 / 22 kW AC so a thicker one.    

At home if just a 7 kW charger it can be a Type 2 to Type 2 that is not as Heavy Duty that you are using, or the one from the car. 

 (I have only a 7kW on board charging so not a thick cable in the car.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 December, 20223 yr by toot

13 hours ago, langers2k said:

@J.R. - have a google for PENS fault protection.

 

Just for example: https://www.romatech.co.uk/blog/page/view/ev_charging_pen_fault_earth_rod

 

edit:

Second link that's pretty clear to me: https://www.mylights.co.uk/images/pdf/TruePEN-Explain-Doc.pdf

Thanks for that, every day is a school day for me.

 

This is very clear and the penny dropped immediately:

 

A possible fault condition in a PME system occurs when due to a
break in the PEN conductor the home appliances appear dead.
However, if a device is turned ON, the neutral will rise to the live
potential, and so too will earth as this is also connected to the
house neutral. Under this fault condition, RCDs no longer provide
fault protection.

 

This however raised my eyebrows:

 

Inside the home, the danger is low as no potential difference
exists between the live, neutral and earth conductors to do any
harm. However, if a vehicle is connected to the chargepoint and
earthed inside the home, this provides high risk of electric shock
due to the potential difference between vehicle chassis and
external ground. If a person stood on the ground touches the
vehicle chassis, they could complete the earth’s path to ground
and experience an electric shock.
 

Whilst there is no PD between L, N & E during the fault condition they are all at 235 VAC potential, touching any earthed metal casing (a heater or light fitting for instance) would result in the person getting a shock to ground, this is not limited to an EV on charge.

 

Or have I missed something?

 

Here in France we use the earth rod system and not PME.

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

If a person stood on the ground touches the
vehicle chassis, they could complete the earth’s path to ground
and experience an electric shock.

 

Should that not correctly be "they would complete the neutral return of any active circuits via their body to earth and experience an electric shock"?

25 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Whilst there is no PD between L, N & E during the fault condition they are all at 235 VAC potential, touching any earthed metal casing (a heater or light fitting for instance) would result in the person getting a shock to ground, this is not limited to an EV on charge.

 

 

My understanding is when you're in the house, there is likely a relatively high resistance between the person and earth so the potential shock current is quite low. Obviously this will vary with house construction, location within the house, floor coverings etc...

 

A car would typically be outside and rain or damp conditions are common. That may cause the resistance to be lower leading to a higher potential shock current. I guess the regs are trying to cover the more dangerous scenario first?

 

Just to point out, I'm not an electrician and have no formal training so my understanding may be flawed 

 

Your logic is spot on, thanks for steering my thought process.

 

Having gone to evening class a couple of decades back to study for and then sit the IEE 16th Edition I can tell you that logic and understanding was not on the menu for 95% of the employed electricians who made up the rest of the class and who had already failed the exam several times.

 

An "Open Book" exam where the answers to all the questions are contained within the wiring regs which you have with you to consult, all it is actually doing is to prove that you  know how to read a book, and use the index to find the relevant section that you need, the questions are multiple choice, 4 answers, the pass mark is only 60%, this means for every question that you know you have answered correctly you can guess another and will end up with a 62% pass mark.

 

I had only attended maybe 4 or 5 of the 26 classes after working out what the deal was, I was using the book each day when working so did my learning that way, the exam was 2.5 hours and you could leave after 1 hr 15 minutes, I had finished the paper after 35 minutes, spent another 10 going through checking my answers and then twiddled my thumbs before leaving at the appointed time.

 

The others had arranged to meet in the pub after the exam so I waited for them, one said to me "I don't blame you for walking out mate, I would have done the same but having failed it so many times and having probbaly failed again this time if my boss heard I had left early I would be sacked", the others were of the same view, I could not tell them that it was so simple that half an hour was all was needed.

 

Most worked for firms of contracting electricians and the qualified person would sign off their work, they needed to pass so that they could work on jobs alone and sign off the work of others.

8 hours ago, Mr Grump said:

There are a couple of chargers I can find for just under £500

Mind if I ask which ones are they? Not all chargers are created equal. Eg. the Tesla tethered charger is "just" £425, but it does not contain O-PEN fault detection. So after adding this protection in the fuse box, the total cost will be over £500 closer to other UK market all-inclusive charge points.

 

8 hours ago, Mr Grump said:

I presume by commando socket , you are refering to the existing 3 pin box on the wall, no idea of tax reasons as I am not self employed. 🙂

It is unknown how EV will be taxed. If it were taxed based on liquid fuel tax mentality: tax on electricity usage. My thinking is that it is very difficult to monitor all non-smart charge point usage. If systems were brought in to ensure 100% coverage of tax, it will be extremely complex, intrusive and convoluted.

 

Your existing commando socket (the blue one in your OP photo) will allow full speed 7 kW charging using "temporary" charge points. As discussed, if your car were remain dry in the garage, the chance of requiring O-PEN fault protection is low, so the cheapest way to achieve EV charging is what I've posted earlier, for £220. But you must be aware of the risks.

 

A cable usually comes the car. You can always buy another one for home use should you feel the need to carry a cable with you on a daily basis.

I personally prefer untethered points because it ensures 100% compatibility for everything: old EV's and new. Need a longer cable because you've changed car and charge port is at different location? easy fix.

 

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

Having gone to evening class a couple of decades back to study for and then sit the IEE 16th Edition I can tell you that logic and understanding was not on the menu for 95% of the employed electricians who made up the rest of the class and who had already failed the exam several times.

Unfortunately this is the difference between technician and engineer.

 

My neighbour and I are working through contactors to do house insulation and modernising (eg. modulating thermostat, he's also looking at solar PV). We would find suitable products but it's not something the contractor are familiar, so they would quote waaaay higher or refuse to give quotes. A few times he had to be firm and work through the material with them. He's a civil engineer and I'm electronics, so I'm relying on his judgement for wall insulation while he's asking me about details of his solar installation.

Edited 5 December, 20223 yr by wyx087

Also, in UK with PME system. Their bodge to not require O-PEN fault protection was to connect all metal pipework to in-coming earth connection. That way in case of O-PEN fault, the metal pipework would be at similar voltage as the floating earth.

 

Conditions are impossible to control outside, especially in the rain, so either earthing rod near the charge point or O-PEN fault protection is required.

25 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Mind if I ask which ones are they? Not all chargers are created equal. Eg. the Tesla tethered charger is "just" £425, but it does not contain O-PEN fault detection. So after adding this protection in the fuse box, the total cost will be over £500 closer to other UK market all-inclusive charge points.

 

It is unknown how EV will be taxed. If it were taxed based on liquid fuel tax mentality: tax on electricity usage. My thinking is that it is very difficult to monitor all non-smart charge point usage. If systems were brought in to ensure 100% coverage of tax, it will be extremely complex, intrusive and convoluted.

 

Your existing commando socket (the blue one in your OP photo) will allow full speed 7 kW charging using "temporary" charge points. As discussed, if your car were remain dry in the garage, the chance of requiring O-PEN fault protection is low, so the cheapest way to achieve EV charging is what I've posted earlier, for £220. But you must be aware of the risks.

 

Hi the two I looked at were: VORSPRUNG® EV Charger charging wall box unit type 2 t2 - rapid EV wallbox 32 amp/7.4kw ip65 rated electric car station plus 5m cable, home car charging point vehicles, indoor/outdoor -UK Design: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

and: VORSPRUNG® EV Charger charging wall box unit type 2 t2 - rapid EV wallbox 32 amp/7.4kw ip65 rated electric car station plus 5m cable, home car charging point vehicles, indoor/outdoor -UK Design: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

 

Tax ? I thought the VED would just go to standard rate (£165 atm) in 2025, for anything registered between 2017 and 2025.

 

Does anyone know of the time from ordering to fitting for any of the major EV charger providers like podpoint, and have any recommendations?

Edited 5 December, 20223 yr by Mr Grump

32 minutes ago, Mr Grump said:

Hi the two I looked at were: VORSPRUNG® EV Charger charging wall box unit type 2 t2 - rapid EV wallbox 32 amp/7.4kw ip65 rated electric car station plus 5m cable, home car charging point vehicles, indoor/outdoor -UK Design: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

I think you posted the same one. But this one says it does have O-PEN protection so should be okay. But I can't find install manual to check what is required externally.

 

Best way to do this is to find a Mr Sparky who is comfortable installing EV charge points and know how to test them after install. Then tell Mr Sparky the charge point you are thinking of buying. They will go off and do research on install requirements for that particular one.

 

37 minutes ago, Mr Grump said:

Tax ? I thought the VED would just go to standard rate (£165 atm) in 2025, for anything registered between 2017 and 2025.

Yes, buy now and you'll only pay £165 (or whatever it will be) per year for VED. Buy after 2025 and if car costs more than £40k, it will also be hit with expensive car tax.

But the VED doesn't account for vehicle usage. There will still be a giant hole left by fuel duty for fossil fuel. It is unknown how this will be filled. One thing is for sure, don't budget based on the assumption that there will never be any usage based tax.

 

Sorry, don't know of timescale, you best bet is to phone up and ask. Government grant for charge point installs ended earlier in the year, so I'd have thought the installers will be relatively free now. It was impossible to get someone to do this install ~2 months before the grant ended.

Oops yes, other one was: Wallbox Pulsar Plus EV charging solution up to 7.4 kW, Type 2 plug. Earthing Protection, Bluetooth & Wi-Fi connectivity. Color: Black : Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

 

And there is this one: Sevadis MaxiCharger 7.4kW Electric Vehicle Charger | Wall Mounted Type 2 Socket Charger for Electric Cars | EV Charging Point with WiFi, Bluetooth, Ethernet and PME Fault Detection | UK OZEV Approval: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

Just awaiting a quote from an independant, they were recommending/pushing a Zappi, any thoughts on those ?

He was on about armoured cable, but as its in a dry garage is that really needed ?