Hi all

 

Car is a Mk3 Superb 150 TDi SE L Exec 4x4. DFEA engine code, MY2016. Mileage about 56k. Completely standard.

 

While looking at a separate fault (SCR pump pressure too low) using VCDS, I happened to notice in the freeze frame data that the intake air temperature is wayyy higher than expected - but this in itself it not flagging a fault.

 

I have two sets of freeze frame data from two different days.

On both days the ambient was between 0 and 5 degC.

Engine speed around 1500rpm, just normal steady driving (no massive acceleration or hills).

The air intake temp was been recorded at 91degC and 63degC 🤨

 

Car seems to drive just fine. Only thing we have noticed recently is that it seems to be doing more frequent regens. (I wondered if an incorrectly high intake air temp might be causing it to overfuel a little and soot the DPF faster? Or maybe that's a separate issue).

 

Has anyone else had this issue with the intake air temps ?

 

Maybe a common sensor fault or wiring fault ?

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

My gut tells me this might be normal as higher intake temperatures than expected would probably be picked up by the ECU and probably put the car in limp mode or at least store some codes????

 

Just done some more digging and i think you are looking at the intake temperature which is before the charge cooler, I think there should be 2 sensors, 1 before, 1 after, obviously if you are looking at the before temps they are going to be high

Edited 21 December, 20223 yr by SuperbTWM

8 hours ago, SuperbTWM said:

My gut tells me this might be normal as higher intake temperatures than expected would probably be picked up by the ECU and probably put the car in limp mode or at least store some codes????

 

Just done some more digging and i think you are looking at the intake temperature which is before the charge cooler, I think there should be 2 sensors, 1 before, 1 after, obviously if you are looking at the before temps they are going to be high

We are talking a turbocharger here, not an industrial compressor. 

not a chance that a turbocharger has the ability to compress air to 2/3 bar and bring the temperature to 91 degrees.

so it leaves 2 things - faulty sensor/wiring or vcds incorrectly reading the block data 

 

or user error and you are looking at coolant temperature?

3 hours ago, ApertureS said:

not a chance that a turbocharger has the ability to compress air to 2/3 bar and bring the temperature to 91 degrees.

 

A quick google suggests that 91° C is a perfectly plausible temperature between the turbo and intercooler. For example, Valeo state: "The intercooler lowers the temperature of the inlet gas from 130° C to 60° C, removes the negative effects of the turbo and increases the power by around 20%."

 

Given there are no fault codes, I would have no concerns about it 👍

 

Might be worth looking at some more measuring blocks to see if there are a few more temps from other parts of the intake system?

Might be an idea to check your soot levels, and also to potentially get some readings of temps with engine off/ignition on (don't be slow as you will drain battery)

So if you have a temperature of 40°C with the engine off that won't be legit.

 

While you are there, you can check the DPF regens, as you say they are more frequent.

Read in measuring blocks for sensor pressure with engine off, should read close to zero, and when starting engine that should of course increase.

 

I would take some baseline measurements of your soot/ash levels so you have a future reference.

 

A full VCDS scan log would be appreciated also, if you have the tool, please provide the data, it's invaluable!

Don’t forget EGR system which contibutes to get hot air from exhaust gaz to the air intake…

Since there is no fault code, I wouldn’t worry too much.  

4 hours ago, ApertureS said:

We are talking a turbocharger here, not an industrial compressor. 
 

 

So manufacturers fit devices to cool the charge air just for fun?

9 minutes ago, Bap33 said:

Don’t forget EGR system which contibutes to get hot air from exhaust gaz to the air intake…

Since there is no fault code, I wouldn’t worry too much.  

 Exactly, nothing wrong here at all

Thanks all.

 

Just did some baseline logging with a stone cold, non-running engine and all temps are where you'd expect - so no fundamental sensor issue.

 

I then went for a drive and did some logging.

One of the measuring values I was looking at, is "Charge air temperature sensor" (IDE04003).

The readings from this are of the format "B1S1/B1S2:23/35".

I presume that means "Bank 1 Sensor 1 / Bank 1 Sensor 2".

 

Does anyone know exactly where these two readings are taken ?

The first of the numbers rises quickly under higher boost (during prolonged had accel up a hill this peaked around 120degC), whereas the second has relatively little change, typically in the 40degC region.

From that I suspect they are the before/after air temps as it passes through the chargecooler. In which case - perhaps all is OK.

 

I wonder if in the freeze-frame data stored with the other fault, when it says "Intake Air Temp" it's actually reporting the air temp between turbo and chargecooler.

Edited 23 December, 20223 yr by muddyboots

6 hours ago, muddyboots said:

 

 

Does anyone know exactly where these two readings are taken ?

 

Pre-cooler is just after the butterfly valve, post cooler is right before the cylinder head.

 

Sounds like the control of the pump is working absolutely spot on.

 

On 22/12/2022 at 06:10, ApertureS said:

not a chance that a turbocharger has the ability to compress air to 2/3 bar and bring the temperature to 91 degrees.

 

Every day is a school day 😉

Hi all,

I don't think that I have a problem on any sensor but i'm experience since 2019 a issue that no dealership in Portugal can identify or find and that is related with Charge Air Temperature.

The issue is that when on hard load, highway uphills for example, my charge air cooler temperature is registering around 120º on sensor 1 (before charge air cooler) and in some cases more that 90ºC on sensor 2 (after charge air cooler). The effect is that the ECU cuts out diesel and I have a limitation of power until the sensor 2 gets back to bellow 90ºC and then the power is fully restored.

They already replace the charge air cooler pump, a non return valve on the exit of water pipe at the charge air cooler and even cleaned the charge air cooler, but the problem remains until today.

No fault code is stored in the ECU.

Do anyone experience this or have a clue on how can I fix this problem?

 

Here is a sample of the temperature sensors:

 

 

Thanks!

Is this during the heatwave?

 

Is it more noticeable during hot weather?

it is more noticeable during hot weather yes. But even in the winter I can notice that bu it takes longer to reach those temperatures. I have some cases that the car won't let me go more than 100km/h where before I can easily go mutch more.

Maybe there is a restriction/blockage in the charge air coolant cooler/radiator?

 

I believe the charge air coolant cooler/radiator is behind the air con condenser but in front of the main radiator. Are the fins on the condenser straight and clean (IE not reducing the airflow through it and subsequently the charge air radiator)

 

What are the amibient temps when this happenning? 

 

Also, what is the speed limit in Portugal??? 😂 I'm willing to bet if you try not going over 100mph in the blistering heat everything would probably be fine

Edited 27 July, 20232 yr by SuperbTWM

Hi SuperbTWM.

Charge air cooler was removed and cleaned. On of my current doubts is related with the charge air cooler radiator it self and in fact the AC condenser looks like it was in a stone war, but is enough to block so much air? I don't have problems with the main radiator and coolant temperature. Nevertheless, it is an easy fix to try to get more air flow into the radiators cleaning the condenser.

Regarding temperatures, I get more "problems" when temperatures are higher than around 20ºC, but even with 4-5ºC I have problems, but less of course...

 

Speed limit in Portugal is 120km/h (around 75mph). Yes, you are right, but I cannot pass in some cases 100km/h when going uphill on highways. 😞

The speeds that you saw there was to monitor/record sensor values

 

Thanks!

Hello guys!

@ruivalenteDid you maybe resolve the issue? I have the same issue on the my skoda octavia 2017 1.6 85kw. I have changed air cooler and the same thing is happening. 

If you have resolved it, please put the solution :D 

hi @dejanrs! No, unfortunately I still have the issue, and now we are in summer time so it's even worse. My next step will be changing the charge air cooler radiator and AC condenser to increase airflow into the charge air cooler radiator. I'm having oil temperatures higher than normal (115 to 120ºC when it was normal 105 to 110ºC). On the cooler reservoir (wish is new) I found some debris. There is something wrong with my coolant system, for sure, but no one seams to find the problem...

Maybe removing the charge air cooler radiator and flushing it will prove it is ok first rather than just changing it. Even removing a hose and taking a sample of coolant and seeing what it looks like.

 

Does your expansion tank have the silica bag installed and is it still intact?

On 10/08/2024 at 22:00, SuperbTWM said:

Maybe removing the charge air cooler radiator and flushing it will prove it is ok first rather than just changing it. Even removing a hose and taking a sample of coolant and seeing what it looks like.

 

Does your expansion tank have the silica bag installed and is it still intact?

 

Hi,

Doesn't have the silica bag anymore. Last year my heater matrix was clogged and I change the heater matrix and the expansion tank no a new one without the silica bag.

Hi all,

Hope this is the final update on this journey! Yesterday I received the car from the shop. The AC lost some refrigerator gas and I suspected that was the condenser. It was with a lot of dents from stones, and even wholes, 11 years of intense highways here in Portugal

Hi ask the shop to replace the condenser and check the charge air cooler radiator. They checked and propose to change as well the charge air cooler radiator because it was with a lot of small stones as well and because the front of the car was already out, it was the best time to do it.

Apparently, problem solved!!!! Now, on high loads, charge air cooler temperature sensor 1 (before charge air cooler) can reach temperatures like 110-120ºC but sensor 2 (after charge air cooler) remains at 44 to 46ºC. On low boost, it keeps between 40º to 42º and we can see on the chart (android app) the pump turning on and off with the temperature dropping and rising.

Hope this helps other to solve their problems as well. This issue was never solved by any shop since 2019.... After many €€€€ spend on other sensors and valves and cleaning, it was this community and my searching and interest that solved the problem!

Thanks to all!

Hola! Tengo un problema similar en un VW Tiguan 2019 2.0 BiTDI. A día de hoy el problema @ruivalente se solucionó? Gracias

On 22/8/2024 at 16:02, ruivalente said:

Hola a todos,

¡Espero que esta sea la última actualización de este viaje! Ayer recibí el coche del taller. El aire acondicionado perdió algo de gas refrigerante y sospeché que era el condensador. Estaba lleno de abolladuras de piedras, e incluso agujeros, después de 11 años de intensas carreteras aquí en Portugal.

Hola, pídele al taller que cambie el condensador y revise el radiador del intercooler. Lo revisaron y propusieron cambiar también el radiador, ya que tenía muchas piedras pequeñas y, como ya había sacado la parte delantera del coche, era el mejor momento para hacerlo.

¡¡¡Aparentemente, problema resuelto!!!  Ahora, con cargas altas, el sensor de temperatura 1 del intercooler (antes del intercooler) puede alcanzar temperaturas de entre 110 y 120 °C, pero el sensor 2 (después del intercooler) se mantiene entre 44 y 46 °C. Con baja presión de sobrealimentación, se mantiene entre 40 y 42 °C, y podemos ver en la gráfica (aplicación de Android) cómo la bomba se activa y desactiva según la temperatura sube y baja.

Espero que esto ayude a otros a resolver sus problemas. Este problema no se ha solucionado en ninguna tienda desde 2019... Después de gastar mucho dinero en otros sensores, válvulas y limpieza, esta comunidad, mi búsqueda e interés fueron los que lo solucionaron.

¡Gracias a todos!

55 minutes ago, Adan_Bujeiro said:

Hola! Tengo un problema similar en un VW Tiguan 2019 2.0 BiTDI. A día de hoy el problema @ruivalente se solucionó? Gracias

Hi Adan,

Yes, problem solved. The car has all the power that I need, event with this 40º outside, highway with heavy load, everything works great.

Please validate with OBD all the sensor data before do anything. Understand the behavior of the car. Use this forum to think out loud and always start with the smallest things.

Thanks

Just now, ruivalente said:

Hola Adán,

Sí, problema resuelto. El coche tiene toda la potencia que necesito, incluso con este clima exterior de 40° y en carretera con mucha carga, todo funciona de maravilla.

Por favor, valide con OBD todos los datos de los sensores antes de hacer nada. Comprenda el comportamiento del coche. Use este foro para reflexionar y comience siempre por los detalles más pequeños.

Gracias

Okey, te archivo unas imágenes del sensor IDE04003 con sus valores.

El motor es un VW 2.0 BiTDI 2019, la temperatura del sensor B1S1 llega a 181 (antes del WC) y el B1S2 al alcanzar 100 grados o superior (salida del WC). Con estos valores corta tanto inyección como soplado de los turbos. Ahora se ha sustituido el WaterCooler, se anularon las EGR, el radiador del WC se llevó a limpiar con ultrasonidos, pero el problema sigue. Después de cambiar el Watercooler por uno nuevo los valores del sensor IDE04003 mejoraron, pero si se fuerza el coche durante un tiempo en carga finalmente los valores vuelven a ser elevados y corta inyección y soplado de nuevo.

OJO!! Todo esto sin emitir ningún código de averia!!

@ruivalente

The symptoms are the the same that I had. My Charge Air Cooler was cleaned with ultrasonic as well, but without difference.

If you have someone that can check, ask to check or clean the radiator (if it is like mine, you should have 3 radiators in the car, from front to back, AC condenser, Charge Air Cooler radiator, Main Water radiator). Mine was changed (it's not expensive).

Also, check if you have the Silica bag in your water reservoir. Again, mine had, we suspect that the crystals spread throughout the system because I only had the heater matrix clogged.

You will never get an error code in your system. Check the pump as well, it might be clogged or so.

Si, llevo la misma distribución de radiadores que tú. La bolsa de silicato se retiró y se sustituyó el anticongelante por G12EVO haciendo 3 limpiezas de todo el circuito previamente, problema de obstrucción del sistema de agua aparentemente no es.

Me comentas que cambiaste un radiar, solo cambiaste el condensador del aire acondicionado o alguno más?

Bomba de agua a cual te refieres, a la principal movida por la distribución o a las eléctricas? Eléctricas ya se remplazaron las 2 que lleva el Watercooler.

@ruivalente

I changed both radiators AC condenser and Charge Air Cooler radiator.

Yes, the electric pumps.

You can check another thing that in may case was vital to understand that it was not turbos or other stuff. If you can replicate the scenario, for example go to the highway, on an hill try to accelerate and register the time that the car reduces the fuel. Then, remove the plug from sensor 2 (after charge air cooler), computer will say that the temperature is -40º. Get back on road, and in the same spot, check if there is any difference. If the car has power, the problem should be on the radiator or sensors (giving the fat that you already changed a lot of things).

There is another test that you can do. With the car cold, in the morning for example, connect ODB and check the sensors temperature before turning on the car. Temperatures should be the same as environmental temperatures. Check if there is any temperature that is out of normal.