EV used car prices plummeting ,what's your experience?

[vrskeith]

So say.https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-electric-vehicles/crisis-looms-used-electric-car-values-plummet 

[Ootohere]

Some EV's like the Stellantis so Vauxhall / Citroen - DS / Peugeot had crazy RRP's & now some new EV cars are cheaper so that is bound to have an affect on things.

 

Motability Finance bought and leased out pre Covid starting 3 years ago and during lots of EV's.

The ones from over 3 years ago will be getting handed back and going to BCA and then into the used car market.

(You would not want my Corsa Electric when it is due back in August as it is a rattling bucket of poo as many Stallantis EV's will be at 3 years or more.

My car was built well over 3 years ago as it was being transported when it ended up in Lockdown from March til August.) 

A Corsa Electric like mine was £35,000 RRP, and Demonstrators were available a few months later for £25,000 or so and there are dealers asking 2 1/2 -3 years later around £24,000 for a 2020 plate car.   They wish. 

 

PS.

EDIT.

Sorry,

just looking at Autorader,  no idea where they have all disappeared from the Adverts.  Has someone been buying them???

PPS.

I see Arnold Clark have a few 20 Plate Elite Nav like mine from £18,000 - £20,495 and these are not on Autotrader.

I will be interested to see what Motability would sell the one i have to me for. 

Edited 24 March, 2023 by toot

[Luckypants]

Is it not the case that used prices for all cars are 'plummeting' as demand drops due to the cost of living crisis? Last year used prices were daft for everything - at one stage WBAC / motorway were offering me £8,750 for our 6 year old Citigo - mainly due to lack of supply of new cars, so demand was high for nearly new used cars and this had a knock on effect to lower priced cars. I think a lot of people have put off getting a new car due to uncertainty over their cashflow for the next year or so. For those under 40, 10% inflation is a new and scary phenomenon and pay is not keeping pace so belts are being tightened. Mortgage rates have gone up and is shocking those who were forced to max out to buy, so a new car is unlikely.

 

I suspect we will see a 'crisis' in many suppliers of big ticket items over the next 12 months.

[wyx087]

BREAKING NEWS: Brand new cars plummet in value as soon as you drive them off the forecourt.

Or, "EV Boom for 2nd hand market as over inflated prices come down"

 

There are more than one way to skin a car. Just depends on which side of fence you sit.

[Ootohere]

MG EV's are available for new delivery and priced quite well. 

Maybe the glut of them used in 3 or 4 years time will tell if they are good value.

 

Cars with 50 kWh batteries and only 45 kWh usable an that get no place near the WLTP figures should be depreciating badly.

Funnily small battery cars like MINI Electric, Honda E or Up!MiiCitigo electrics might be the ones that stay in demand and you can not pick up as a bargain, 

as with BMW i3's. 

[EnterName]

Like it or not, I think there are a lot more people who want a personal vehicle than want an personal EV.

I don't know how big is the market for EVs in the UK is, but I think they're less desirable to the average person than some people think they are.

Maybe it's simply a case of the market being saturated with EVs, with more used EVs for sale than buyers wanting an EV.

 

I don't know anyone who's bought a used EV or PHEV for that matter, but I know several people with them on PCP/lease from new.

Just how big is the UK market for used EVs?

[Ootohere]

Getting bigger as Low Emission Zones are introduced and Taxi, Private Hire,Couriers, Fast Food Delivery drivers and others are looking to pick up a bargain

as will people looking for 2nd cars or just commuter cars for work into cities and towns. 

Plenty dealers / traders of Used EV's around the UK. 

http://rac.co.uk/drive/news/electric-vehicles/news/record-demand-for-electric-vehicles-despite-8.5-drop-in-used-car-sales

 

 

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2023/02/21/falling-prices-for-used-evs-boosts-demand-in-january

 

People like 'heycar' will have a vested interest in biging them up considering who owns heycar.

http://www.heycar.co.uk/blog/electric-cars-statistics-and-projections

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 March, 2023 by toot

[EnterName]

Pointing the legislation gun at the heads of ICE users to get them to give up their ICE cars will not happy voters make.

I mean you can do it, but I don't think most people like being bossed around and told what to do.

(That's probably why the number of men getting married is declining. 😋)

[lol-lol]

On 24/03/2023 at 10:20, toot said:

Some EV's like the Stellantis so Vauxhall / Citroen - DS / Peugeot had crazy RRP's & now some new EV cars are cheaper so that is bound to have an affect on things.

 

Motability Finance bought and leased out pre Covid starting 3 years ago and during lots of EV's.

The ones from over 3 years ago will be getting handed back and going to BCA and then into the used car market.

(You would not want my Corsa Electric when it is due back in August as it is a rattling bucket of poo as many Stallantis EV's will be at 3 years or more.

My car was built well over 3 years ago as it was being transported when it ended up in Lockdown from March til August.) 

A Corsa Electric like mine was £35,000 RRP, and Demonstrators were available a few months later for £25,000 or so and there are dealers asking 2 1/2 -3 years later around £24,000 for a 2020 plate car.   They wish. 

 

PS.

EDIT.

Sorry,

just looking at Autorader,  no idea where they have all disappeared from the Adverts.  Has someone been buying them???

PPS.

I see Arnold Clark have a few 20 Plate Elite Nav like mine from £18,000 - £20,495 and these are not on Autotrader.

I will be interested to see what Motability would sell the one i have to me for. 

 

Similar for the well selling Zoe.  RRP over £34.5k but got mine with 5k off from Renault central, another £2k from dealer, plus the Government grant of about £2.5k so true cost to me was about £25k and they are currently selling, with coloured paint, for around £25K new and a decent second hand one of 18 months old, like mine you might get for just under 20K so no big lose there and what will keep the cars value quite reasonable is that it can run for half the cost of an diesel or electric car when including fuel, servicing etc.

 

Petrol now selling at some place at under £1.40 a litre and no government supporting grant, at least a reduction in the 20% VAT to say 5% on EVs would be nice and help save the world.  EV's main problem, to me, is the huge dip in winter range which if I could get the car in the garage, charge the car in an home ambient temperature of 15 C and above would mean at least ones starting range at the beginning of the day is well up to the summer range and one might be able to maintain that until one gets home in the evening and pop it back in the garage if one is luck to have one.

 

I think car manufacturers could do a lot more to keep the traction battery at at least 15C to maintain good range all year round.  We had to keep the traction battery at over 50C for our solid state LIthium Metal Polyimide batteries in our Bollore BlueCar and whilst plugged in and awaiting hire it would keep the battery at 50c, its temperature could go up to 80C I understand, but the cars system, presumably vents or the like, kept the traction battery at optimum temperature along with a bit of power from the rid when plugged in.      

 

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

I think car manufacturers could do a lot more to keep the traction battery at at least 15C to maintain good range all year round. 

Totally agree. When I see 3 battery temperature bars on Leaf, I know it's going to have reduced range. Thankfully if the car is in daily use, it stays at 4 bars except for extreme cold days.

 

Meanwhile, for Tesla, I have programmed a Home Assistant automation and toggle. This means I can set it to pre-condition using AC power during cheap electricity periods (automation will set a low cabin temperature, but pre-condition when connected to AC will see the vehicle to pre-condition the battery as well). In coldest days I have done that and only used 1 kWh extra (8p). But in the morning when I scanned data using ScanMyTesla app, it shows battery is ~13c.

[lol-lol]

57 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Totally agree. When I see 3 battery temperature bars on Leaf, I know it's going to have reduced range. Thankfully if the car is in daily use, it stays at 4 bars except for extreme cold days.

 

Meanwhile, for Tesla, I have programmed a Home Assistant automation and toggle. This means I can set it to pre-condition using AC power during cheap electricity periods (automation will set a low cabin temperature, but pre-condition when connected to AC will see the vehicle to pre-condition the battery as well). In coldest days I have done that and only used 1 kWh extra (8p). But in the morning when I scanned data using ScanMyTesla app, it shows battery is ~13c.

 

I never got the Canze app going for the Zoe and there was a big problem for ZE50 as it worked well with the Ze22 and ZE40 but not the ZE50 and it gives and some other packages give a wealth of information that can be so useful.

 

I have just watched the first half of the Nissan Town star which seems to nick much Renault tech for the Nissan-Renault alliance and it seems to have born good fruit.   Sub £30k with the EV van grant, 250 miles of city range, 22 kW AC charging and 80 kW DC charging.  No charge-gate as we see with Bjorn Nyland's video.

Tilting the balance to EVs for vans and making our city's air more breathable........ 

 

  

[Ootohere]

The MOTABILITY Q2 price list for cars including EV's is out, April til end June.

 

2 Mini Electrics are available, £0 or £499, so much cheapness, MINI must want them punted or they are good for Motability at resale, 

and and also low / cheap Advance Payments on Zoe, Leaf & even the new MG4.

 

http://motability.co.uk/find-a-vehicle

 

The very high Advance payments like with the Corsa Electric starting @ £2,200 will be because the bad depreciation on the ones that have been going back over this past 3 years.

 

I can not re-order before May for a new car so will wait see what there is in Q3 that will suit me if i stay electric.

I would like a MINI just for the fun of it but i never got 100 miles out of a full battery when trying them.

 

The only Plug in Hybrid i could afford from Q2 is the Renault Capture so i will give that a miss.

Looks like i will keep the Corsa i have beyond the 3 years and it might be this time next year i get another EV if i do get one.

 

EDIT.

Quite a spec with the MINI, leather, heated seats glass roof, matrix lights, choice of 16" wheels rather than 17", 

good colour choices and no cost options. £35,000 or there about for the £499 then £71 a week.

Just the poor range.

OK for fun on good or even great driving roads, but hopeless if you are not getting charged while enjoying the 'Drives like a G0-kart'.

 

 

Edited 1 April, 2023 by toot

[lol-lol]

4 hours ago, toot said:

The MOTABILITY Q2 price list for cars including EV's is out, April til end June.

 

2 Mini Electrics are available, £0 or £499, so much cheapness, MINI must want them punted or they are good for Motability at resale, 

and and also low / cheap Advance Payments on Zoe, Leaf & even the new MG4.

 

http://motability.co.uk/find-a-vehicle

 

The very high Advance payments like with the Corsa Electric starting @ £2,200 will be because the bad depreciation on the ones that have been going back over this past 3 years.

 

I can not re-order before May for a new car so will wait see what there is in Q3 that will suit me if i stay electric.

I would like a MINI just for the fun of it but i never got 100 miles out of a full battery when trying them.

 

The only Plug in Hybrid i could afford from Q2 is the Renault Capture so i will give that a miss.

Looks like i will keep the Corsa i have beyond the 3 years and it might be this time next year i get another EV if i do get one.

 

EDIT.

Quite a spec with the MINI, leather, heated seats glass roof, matrix lights, choice of 16" wheels rather than 17", 

good colour choices and no cost options. £35,000 or there about for the £499 then £71 a week.

Just the poor range.

OK for fun on good or even great driving roads, but hopeless if you are not getting charged while enjoying the 'Drives like a G0-kart'.

 

 

 

Some quite expensive cars but no Teslas ?

 

As I mentioned above I think it is mainly the high priced EVs that are falling and no so much the cheaper EVs.  Maybe people are realising that EVs can cost half of what ICE cars cost to run and they are factoring that in their calculations and planning for the longer term when getting dinosaur juice becomes every more difficult and as EV charging stations pop up in ever more locations and they have to compete and basically sell electricity at less than the home domestic rate to entice EV drivers out of their homes.

 

If Electric Viking is to be believed then there is a tidal wave of much cheaper EVs come out of factories as many factors come to fruition ie - Telsa willing  to cut margins and selling price, ever greater economies of scale and improved production method, the falling price of lithium and move to no rare metals and even other elements.  Glut a cars in China meaning Tesla can focus more on export sales.

 

Add to this electricity prices likely to fall in real terms big time as more wind and solar come on line in the next few months, Europe already hit one third production from Wind this month.

   

The Model Y has now replace the VW Golf as the best selling car in Europe and one can hardly see this ever going back to ICE cars.  Those holding out for hydrogen ICE cars are quite probably having rose tinted dreams as hydrogen is so volatile and difficult to store safely.

 

Electricity could fall to just the cost of maintaining the production equipment and cost of transition with a small add on fee future improvements and profit for the wholesaler meaning it drops to just a few pence per Kwh as it is for us now who buy the cheap after midnight lecky, 7.5 p per kwh in my case.   Massive changes a head a this EV technology has so much momentum now few probably realise how fundamental and soon the change will be inescapable.

 

I see Octopus had a negative cost event a few days ago.......

https://www.current-news.co.uk/octopus-energy-embraces-negative-pricing-with-plunge-tariff/

Greg Jackson, founder and chief executive of Octopus Energy, said: “This tariff is groundbreaking. By reflecting the real cost of energy on the grid every half hour, customers can capitalise on times when prices are especially low.  “Indeed, if the wholesale price goes below 0p/kWh, Octopus Agile will actually pay you to take the unwanted energy from the grid. As renewable energy production grows these events are only going to become more frequent.”

[Ootohere]

@lol-lol No Tesla. 

The £7,995 Advance on a Mustang Mach-e will be for those maybe with more money than sense.

£7,995 x 156 x at least £71 a week (£11,076) is a minimum of £19,071 the person leasing is paying out for 3 years of having one.

No VED, or servicing or insurance to pay though and 20,000 mile a year mileage allowance.

 

It is all a bit of a Pith take from a few years back when a £26,000 max limit on RRP was supposed to be imposed unless the customers family needs / disability / conversions meant the car / vehicle needed to be more expensive. 

Some with more expensive cars with conversions have higher benefits including war pensions and might lease for 5 years.

 

That Max Limit never really happened and as it is Motability is more a business than a charity and they know about depreciation and the deals manufacturers give them. the expected future values etc.

When you see an invoice and compare the RRP to what Motability pay on the day as you input your pin number they really get them cheap.

My Alhambra was £32,000 sticker price & they paid £24,000 ish, i paid £600 advance payment and £200 for factory sunset glass.

 

They wanted £18,000 i think for me to buy it at end of lease, they got around £14,000 for it at auction and that was as Covid hit and lockdown & Arnold Clark could not get it sold and about a year later it was advertised at around £12,000.

 

I would not of bought it even at £14,000 from Motability, it was sha-gged, 

 

 

Edited 2 April, 2023 by toot

[wyx087]

It's obviously dealership/manufacturer bulk buying discounts. Tesla "famously" doesn't do this type of discounts so have been left off. If it's price based, Model 3 will be cheaper than the Ford SUV and Enyaq.

 

Don't forget, road tax is coming in 2025.

[Ootohere]

Disabled Drivers or those who are driven & Registered Keepers (or the nominated driver) & with PIP Mobility Component / DLA Higher rate can get Exemption from VED and there is no VED on the cars leased from Motability no matter if ICE and the emissions.

That is unlikely to be changing but you never can tell.

 

50% VED discount for those not on the Higher Rate Benefits.

http://www.gov.uk/financial-help-disabled/vehicles-and-transport

 

Edited 3 April, 2023 by toot

[threadbear]

On 24/03/2023 at 13:41, EnterName said:

Like it or not, I think there are a lot more people who want a personal vehicle than want an personal EV.

I don't know how big is the market for EVs in the UK is, but I think they're less desirable to the average person than some people think they are.

Maybe it's simply a case of the market being saturated with EVs, with more used EVs for sale than buyers wanting an EV.

 

I don't know anyone who's bought a used EV or PHEV for that matter, but I know several people with them on PCP/lease from new.

Just how big is the UK market for used EVs?

I think the EV market is nowhere as huge as it’s perceived to be, simply because such a large proportion of UK property have nowhere to charge EVs at home due to no off road parking. There are 17 houses in our road and no drives and surrounding roads are all similar and it’s the same in every town. 

Edited 12 April, 2023 by threadbear
Grammar

[Ootohere]

There are lots & lots & lots charging at charging hubs, super market chargers, park and ride chargers their business use car or van or private use ones.

Many have no home chargers.  

You get to know people and what their charging regimes are when you talk to them. 

 

The UK market is not 'perceived' it is an actual figure of BEV's already registered, those on order and how many there are going to be registered when new ICE cars are no longer available to buy in the UK. 

'Statistics & Projections'

http://heycar.co.uk/blog/electric-cars-statistics-and-projections

 

http://www.zap-map.com/ev-market-statistics

 

I would like to know how many BEV's in the UK have been scrapped in the past 15 years because they were at end of life, or even written off. 

Maybe SMMT or the DVLA have that figure someplace.

 

 

Edited 12 April, 2023 by toot

[Aspman]

Maybe the majority who want an EV have one?
And there is a lot of publicity fearmongering about battery lifetime. It doesn't really matter if that is nonsense or not if a majority belive that the battery in a used EV is about to fade like some cheap AAs.

If the used prices drop because of the papers FUD headlines it'll drive up lease prices as well.

 

A lot of public charging has gone from free to at cost as well. My neighbour has an EV and he relied on using the council funded chargers for the last few years.

[Ootohere]

Still 23 pence a kWh in Angus with Council chargers.

Monday night Edinburgh City to get home i went to Edinburgh Airport Park and ride, 30 minutes max charging time. 35 pence a kWh.

 

ICE car blocking first charger, a car plugged into the 2nd one and no longer charging, 2 chargers out of order so i waited for the new BP Pulse one working.

The old charger that is working for free and not limited to 30 minutes was occupied by a Black Hybrid cab, Taxis are playing pass the parcel with it, charging free and mugs can just pay unless lucky to get to it when not a taxi on it. 

(I should have charged at LIDL Craigmiller and headed home from there. 40 pence a kWh. 

 

Morons.  & then hopeless maintenance at Edinburgh Airport Park & Ride and mobile phone reception. So communications with apps and chargers.

Edited 12 April, 2023 by toot

[wyx087]

It is indeed an uphill battle to un-do the harm that were done by poorly researched main stream media articles. The batteries will outlast the car and charging times doesn't matter because you are not holding the plug for its duration. 

 

The EV market is big, over 60% of UK households have off-street marking, exact number depend on which article you read: 

https://www.transportxtra.com/publications/parking-review/news/66621/a-third-of-uk-homeowners-don-t-have-a-driveway-or-garage-to-install-a-home-chargepoint/

https://www.nationwidevehiclecontracts.co.uk/car-leasing/guides/off-street-parking-index

 

That means minimum 60% of cars can be electric. Current market penetration is way less than that. 

I say minimum because EV's don't need charging every day, I manage fine 2 EV 1 charger. There are many households with multiple cars. 

 

Personally, I think it's about time cars are cleaned up from the streets. Make roads open and not littered with personal items. 

[lol-lol]

I hear loads of chat on Renault Zoe and Megane-E chat rooms, oh Renault are dumping the Zoes on the market and depressing the prices of our recently bought Zoes.

 

Well boohoo, many of us bought them with massive subsistence from both the Government, Renault UK and the dealers so we paid a price much much less than RRP.  We did so on cheap finance too.  We have been using these cars and paying running costs about half of that of ICE cars with the cheap energy and cheap servicing.  All whilst doing what many of us wanted to do which was to pollute the planet less for future generations.

 

I am quite happy that second hand Zoes are cheaper.  Both the ZE40 and ZE50 Zoes are cracking cars for range.  A bit compromised as a full family car, as are many of the smaller EVs ie poor rear passenger space and smallish boot for prams etc, but I think can work as great commuter cars for many and save the users tens of pounds a month if not a week.

 

Most do not see there is a revolution coming which is gather pace to a absolute gallop which make ICE cars more expensive both to buy and to run.  Interest rates will fall quickly in a few months time, electricity will be cheap as more wind power comes online, especially off peak charging.

 

I have only charged off peak on Octopus GO.  12k miles done, probably paying between 3 and 2 pence per mile and £99 servicing.  Just waiting for work to roll out its 22 kW AC chargers at most of my office and happy days whilst reclaim 45p a mile tax relief from HMRC.   Happy days.

Edited 12 April, 2023 by lol-lol

[EnterName]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Most do not see there is a revolution coming which is gather pace to a absolute gallop which make ICE cars more expensive both to buy and to run.  Interest rates will fall quickly in a few months time, electricity will be cheap as more wind power comes online, especially off peak charging.

Time will tell on these predictions, @lol-lol.

I would welcome a drop in both interest rates and electricity prices, but I'm not counting on those costs coming down.

 

[lol-lol]

1 minute ago, EnterName said:

Time will tell on these predictions, @lol-lol.

I would welcome a drop in both interest rates and electricity prices, but I'm not counting on those costs coming down.

 

These predictions come from what is already happening on the rollout of the North Sea Wind Farm, massive drops in lithium costs, solar panel technology just about to take a quantum leap to go from an efficiency of 20% to that of 50% and the over-production and sales war of EVs in China meaning companies like SAIC ie LDV, MG brands, making no money in China where prices on EVs are halving so they will look to make for the European market which will probably wipe of European marques.  It has happened for every sector of goods and automotive is one of the last to fall.

 

Of course we have the massive factor of taxation and intermediate companies to make massive profit margins within these processes.  Being a tax consultant and import specialist and general examiner of cost build-ups and Asian Pacifics economies it will be interesting to see if the UK, the EU etc introduce Anti-Dumping measures on Chinese vehicles, more taxes like higher VAT rates for UK consumers to ensure they get the tax receipts they desperately need to support the UK faltering economy with zero, or negative growth but increasing public costs with an ageing population.

 

I hear Italy has just declared a national emergency on population imbalance due to low birth rate and ageing population and other European countries may follow.   

Electricity can be produced a one or two pence per kWh yet it somehow gets up to 35p per kWh.  We need a more layer pricing low, middle and high to everyone I think.  

 

[wyx087]

Electricity are cheap when generated by renewables. But somehow the price is tied to a fossil fuel that changes due to geopolitics.

It's beyond stupid that everyone pays a single price for a limited resource that changes by the second. 

It's about time electricity price varies throughout the day and only when fossil fuel is used, it gets expensive. 

 

Those who can store gets it cheap...... and what has electricity storage capacity in abundance?