Just a new thread and really just involves EV,s because EV,s might be involved, as are e-Scooter, e-Bikes or disposable vapes.

 

Another Car Park fire last night and at an Airport in the UK and a partial collapse.    You can find the story where you get your news.

Edited 24 February, 20251 yr by Ootohere

The Luton Airport fire:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446

 

I'm travelling from there next week for a long weekend away. Hope my travel plans wouldn't be affected.

 

 

These are just the trailers for the main feature. I read a chap coming in to land saw two tenders dealing with one car and then... no car park, so that means either bad firefighting or something they could not put out. Question, how long before EV's are banned from multi story car parks? Fiasco coming to a town near you soon.

There is post on social media of the possible source, a Range Rover. 

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712003447992520755

 

I tried to verify by looking at car park markings and it does look like Luton airport car park markings: 

https://www.holidayextras.com/terminal-car-park-2-luton-airport-parking.html

 

From the way flame is shooting out, might be a PHEV HV battery? 

A witness on the BBC just said "flamethrower" and there is only one source of that type of flame. Even if it was a pure ICE car that started it, an EV turned a simple car fire into a disaster. Now imagine 1500 EV's on fire all together.

3 minutes ago, Crasher said:

A witness on the BBC just said "flamethrower" and there is only one source of that type of flame. Even if it was a pure ICE car that started it, an EV turned a simple car fire into a disaster. Now imagine 1500 EV's on fire all together.

A few years ago at the Boomtown festival in Hampshire dozens of cars caught fire after just one caught fire. It's the proximity to each other not the propulsion type.
Very few, if any, were EVs. 

23 minutes ago, Crasher said:

A witness on the BBC just said "flamethrower" 

 

16 minutes ago, @Lee said:

It's the proximity to each other not the propulsion type.

Proximity spreads the fire, but the key word is "flamethrower" which strongly suggests some Li based batteries aggravated the fire.

A diesel car is reported to have started the fire.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67075159?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=652676048ae7803bb6842d1f%26What we know so far%262023-10-11T10%3A20%3A57.962Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:da8da83c-082c-4784-9a26-0419f41c06e0&pinned_post_asset_id=652676048ae7803bb6842d1f&pinned_post_type=share

 

There was also a Liverpool car park fire in 2018: 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-46290095

Statistically, the likelihood of EV being a major factor in spreading the fire in 2018 is very low.

 

Sad to see people are jumping on this and blaming EV's when tightly packed car park fire happens with all cars.

 

 

Edited 11 October, 20232 yr by wyx087

6 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Sad to see people are jumping on this and blaming EV's when tightly packed car park fire happens with all cars.

 

Exactly that. The Boomtown festival I mentioned in 2016. Very few, if any, EVs. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boomtown-fair-music-festival-fire-hampshire-evacuated-80-cars-destroyed-a7189156.html 

This video was originally about breaking the transmission of Corona but I guess it could equally apply to cars catching fire in close proximity to each other.
 

 

 

 

Time will tell as will the official report.

37 minutes ago, Crasher said:

Time will tell as will the official report.

This is the official report for the 2018 Liverpool car park fire.

https://www.bafsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2018/12/Merseyside-FRS-Car-Park-Report.pdf

Its conclusion:

Quote

Running fuel fires were witnessed by BA crews and this undoubtedly led to fire spread through the drainage system, down ramps and along the rib slab floor. This was also highlighted in the BRE experiments conducted between 2006 and 2009:
- “Running fuel fires due to failure of plastic fuel tanks in early stages of vehicle fires can be expected. It is estimated 85% of European vehicles are thought to have plastic fuel tanks.” (BRE Fire Spread in Car Parks BD2552 p.12).
- For two minutes, the tank, fixed as on the vehicle, must be exposed to flame. There must be no leakage of fuel from the tank” (The United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) Regulation 34, Annex 5, paragraph 5.1).

 

My takeaway: the fuel tank is only required to contain the flammable liquid for 2 minutes!

 

 

1 hour ago, Crasher said:

an EV turned a simple car fire into a disaster.

Which of these related incidents were due to "EV turned a simple car fire into a disaster"?

 

Quote

 

Fleming Way, Wiltshire, 29/01/18
Multi-storey car park, attached to local shopping centre, three crews dispatched to tackle a vehicle fire on the third floor, suspected to have been deliberately ignited.

 

Topp Way, Bolton, 20/01/18
Multi-storey car park, single vehicle fire within the multi-storey car park. Firefighters using one main jet on scene for 1 hour, recorded as an accidental fire.

 

Paris, France, 10/01/18
Fire in underground car park, 1 Firefighter fatality (heart attack), 120 Firefighters attended.

 

Jecheon, South Korea, 20/12/17
Fire in a ground floor car park spread to the floors above in an eight storey building. 29 people were killed.

 

Boomtown Festival Fire, Hampshire, 12/8/16
Open car park on a straw stubble field. 92 vehicles involved in fire.

 

Southwater, Telford, Shropshire, 20/6/16
Multi-storey car park, fire involving several vehicles causing damage to wiring, electrical fittings and surrounding structures on the third floor. 3 appliances dispatched, using BA and one main jet brought the fire under control within 2 hours.

 

Cheltenham Rd, Harrogate, 4/12/15
Multi-storey car park, vehicle fire on 5th floor, 4 appliances dispatched and one aerial ladder platform due to the position of the fire. Crews used 1 dry powder and 1 carbon dioxide extinguisher to resolve the incident.

 

Isle of Wight, Newport town centre, 17/7/15
Multi-storey car park, one car involved, crews hauled up a hose reel to extinguish the vehicle, fire investigation concluded as accidental ignition.

 

Willow Place Shopping Centre, Corby, Teeside, 30/12/14
Multi-storey car park building, several vehicles involved, damage to the car park structure and several retail outlets. 6 appliances attended, 30 firefighters worked for four hours to extinguish the fire. 4 youths aged between 14 and 20 charged with arson in connection with the incident.

 

Place Vendome, Paris, 2012
Underground car park, 40 high performance and luxury vehicles lost in fire, declared as accidental ignition due to electrical fault.

 

Ivry-sur-Seine, France, 2009
Multi-storey car park, 200 vehicles involved in fire, fifteen appliances engaged, use of aerial appliances as water towers.

 

Foregate Shopping Centre, Kilmarnock 26/12/08
Multi-storey car park, fire on the third level with heat and smoke travel up to the fourth and fifth levels. 2 BA teams deployed, a total of 11 vehicles damaged, fire investigators found the cause to be accidental.

 

Monica Wills House, Bristol, England, 2006
Multi-storey car park, fire involving 22 vehicles, one fatality due to smoke inhalation from occupancy above the parking facility.

 

Gretchenbach, Switzerland, 2004
Underground multi-storey car park, fire involving up to one hundred vehicles, 7 firefighters killed during firefighting operations.

 

 

Just out of interest.

I did a little research once into EV's that didn't gather much steam as my retirement was pending.

But it came about as there was concern about the safety of EV's in certain environments. In my case the oil & gas industry.

The concern was gathering pace due to reported thermal runaway in the battery technology, High voltage circuitry and runaway vehicles.

Various stories were emerging but had more speculation than fact regarding causes and likelihood of occurance.

However, it did unveil that in the  event of an emergency the site would have some unique challenges ahead that hadn't been thought about when granting access to such vehicles.

In the light of concern vs actual facts the stance was taken to not grant anymore vehicle passes until the current risk was understood. As in, how many EV's were already onsite on a daily basis and what areas were they travelling in.

How could power be isolated if a car became faulty, how would emergency services be able to remove them if they lost power or were severely damaged in an RTI etc because of reports in the automotive industry about electric shock.

And so it goes on.....

Funny how a change in technology happens and then the world plays catch up.

Phase 2 of the stance was to see which of those vehicles needed to be on site and whether total or partial restrictions were suitable.

If this Luton airport fire is nothing to do with the EV's (which looks likely) then great but if it is I can see a heightened level of resistance once people start to investigate prevention and mitigation.

 

Incidentally for the record, I'd love to have a Kia Niro EV someday soon.

Edited 11 October, 20232 yr by Stoker

Quote

Eyewitness - I tried to use fire extinguisher before fuel tank exploded

A female eyewitness has told how she attempted to put out a car fire at Luton Airport before its fuel tank exploded and the building partially collapsed.

The woman, who wished to remain anonymous, said she travelled to the airport on Tuesday night to pick up her mother-in-law and daughter when she came across a vehicle engulfed by flames.

“When we first saw the fire we tried to put it out. I filmed a short video in case I needed to show airport staff,” she said.

“We went down to a lower floor to find a fire extinguisher as there were already two empty ones nearby.

“By the time we got back the fuel tank had already exploded and there was nothing we could do.”

The blaze later became large enough to cause the building to partially collapse, injuring four firefighters and one member of airport staff.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/11/london-luton-airport-fire-car-parking-garage-live-updates/

 

 

Notice how the fire so easily spread out as though it is flowing liquid? Plastic fuel tanks under a few min of sustained heat will let go and add more fuel to the fire.

 

 

edit: 

 

https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/major-incident-declared-luton-airport

 

Quote

The fire service can confirm the initial vehicle involved in the fire was a diesel car. 

 

Edited 11 October, 20232 yr by wyx087

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

My takeaway: the fuel tank is only required to contain the flammable liquid for 2 minutes!

 

You should ask for an aluminium rather than polystyrene tray.

 

You really wont do yourself any good eating takeaways on a regular basis especially those containing flammable liquids.

 

 

13 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

Exactly that. The Boomtown festival I mentioned in 2016. Very few, if any, EVs. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boomtown-fair-music-festival-fire-hampshire-evacuated-80-cars-destroyed-a7189156.html 

This video was originally about breaking the transmission of Corona but I guess it could equally apply to cars catching fire in close proximity to each other.
 

 

 

 

What would have been the price of a sprinkler system compared to the value of the cars lost in the fire ?

 

Sounds like circa £1M for a large car park.  

https://www.business-sprinkler-alliance.org/views/details/requirement-for-sprinklers-in-car-parks-an-outstanding-issue#:~:text=Initial estimates of the cost,the city as a whole.

 

Value of cars ?  Say £10k average.  1500 cars.   £15M and then the cost of rebuilding the car park and its lost of revenue for months, at least, to add a few million to the cost of the cars but then the car park owners are probably not compensating the owners for the loss of the cars that will come from personal car insurance ?

 

With 1500 cars most will be comprehensive insurance, some TPFT and some not insured at all maybe.

 

I think most people would pay an extra 5p an hour, £1 a day to park in a car park with fire suppression systems.  Question is whether water sprinkler is optimum for EVs as we know foam should work better with electrical fires.

 

Another video emerged from a different angle, showing license plate:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712232395049422942

 

The paint on the ground match Luton airport promo page I posted earlier.

 

 

The vehicle is a 2014 diesel, not hybrid of any kind.

 

Looks like it's just been abandoned whilst driving. Very unfortunate to have happened in middle of the car park. Would not have been on the news if it were at side of the road.

There was the Jag i-pace EV recall due to battery fire risk.

 

I searched "Range Rover fire", there is also recalls regarding fire risk. The 2 recalls are exclusively related to assembly faults that would make the ICE a fire risk.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/04/10/range-rover-fire-recalls/?guccounter=1

Quote

The second recall covers just a single car — a lone Range Rover — that apparently left the factory without a critical turbo oil drain gasket. 

 

The 2018-2022 PHEV issue is by far the more urgent of the two. Land Rover says 2,300 examples may have shipped with water pumps whose drive belts can become damaged, leading to potential failure of the pump pully. Whether this results in an immediate catastrophic failure of the pump or merely a loss of coolant circulation, the resulting overheating condition can lead to additional problems, up to and including a full-fledged conflagration. 

 

 

Swings and roundabouts. Nothing is perfect and nothing have zero fire risk.

For the Liverpool Car Park fire @Graham Butcherhas linked the report in the thread in General Automotive chat.

All about the petrol Land Rover, what the CCTV shows what the Driver / Owner gave in the way of statements etc.

 

What they came up with and it not a 'case of being a deliberate fire'.

All go for the Fire & Emergency services in Perth this week.

First floods then fire so what next plaque.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-67053127

 

On 11/10/2023 at 09:17, wyx087 said:

There is post on social media of the possible source, a Range Rover. 

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712003447992520755

 

I tried to verify by looking at car park markings and it does look like Luton airport car park markings: 

https://www.holidayextras.com/terminal-car-park-2-luton-airport-parking.html

 

From the way flame is shooting out, might be a PHEV HV battery? 

Yes, it was supposed to be a Range Rover and supposed to be a diesel one at that, but I have an uneasy feeling about the video and the stills of this car. Firstly, the car does not appear to be parked as the lights are on, and the headlight beams can be seen shining into the distance and not apparently illuminating a wall that would have been in front of it, if it was parked? It looks like its blocking the car on the left in, which was parked at right angles to it, suggesting that the Range Rover was in the process of being driven either to or away from a parking spot. The flames appear to be centred below the Range Rover and the on the left side. The fuel tank is located at the rear, above the axle, but that did not seem to be on fire, otherwise the flames would have been coming up from the rear and over the bumper and tailgate area. I'm wondering if the fire was in fact somewhere to the front and to the left of the Range Rover, possibly? If that is correct, what happened to the driver of the Range Rover?

 

Was the fire officer's statement based around the evidence from the video and the person who shot the video?

 

At this moment in time, it is impossible to say what started the fire and something that many of us have been saying for some time is that with modern cars becoming bigger, parking spaces have not kept pace. So the closeness of cars to each other certainly does not help when things go wrong like this, may be future car parks will be provided with wider bays to give a bigger space for opening of doors and a firebreak?

On 11/10/2023 at 11:31, PetrolDave said:

 

Proximity spreads the fire, but the key word is "flamethrower" which strongly suggests some Li based batteries aggravated the fire.

Without a shadow of doubt, there would have been a few EVs involved, and that reason alone, parking bays do need to be wider to provide a greater clearance from the adjacent cars in order to try and prevent such a runaway fire from happening again.

I don't do X and never did Twitter,

just read what was there when a link posted here if it opened without signing in, or if a screenshot so that means none the wiser what the picture shows.

 

 

On 11/10/2023 at 12:07, @Lee said:

 

Exactly that. The Boomtown festival I mentioned in 2016. Very few, if any, EVs. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boomtown-fair-music-festival-fire-hampshire-evacuated-80-cars-destroyed-a7189156.html 

This video was originally about breaking the transmission of Corona but I guess it could equally apply to cars catching fire in close proximity to each other.
 

 

 

Exactly what I had already said, parking bays are not wide enough, if they were wide enough for both cars to open their doors fully, then these events would be not be happening, the fire break if it did not stop it completely, would certainly considerably slow the spreading down enough to give the firemen time to respond.

 

Also, I posted this link on another thread last night, it seems that pure commercial reasons for the spacings and constructional details of this particular car park have placed at the forefront over public safety and also that of the aeroplanes that are parked around the car park.

 

Lessons of Liverpool car park blaze have not been learnt, safety body warns    | New Civil Engineer

Edited 12 October, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

22 hours ago, wyx087 said:

https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/major-incident-declared-luton-airport

I really can't see how they can at this stage confidently state that the fire was started by the diesel car, because they fire dept did not arrive at scene for 10 minutes according their own timetable of events, by which time it had already spread.