Hi. My car (octavia mk3 2014 2.0 tdi) have had a rackeling sound from the front running over bumps. Its by far worst if the car his a obstacle only on one side. Service told I should switch sway bar bushings and MOT-test (the norwegian one) told that I should change the sway bar links. 

 

So to pass MOT I started to work. Maybe a little too much. I'm now at the point of where the subframe is down, the bushings I ordered seems to be wrong, even though I ordered by chassisnumber of the car from a internet company that I believe is a very well known german company that supplies parts / third party parts. So the things I'm wonderings of:

 

Is the sway bar bushings something that is sort of common to be replaced? They was  glued to the sway bay, and very tricky to  remove. My guess is that they were ok in the end and not needed to change, but I'm unsure. I'm anyway now at point of no return.

 

What happes if I pull it together without using the alignment tool ( T10486/1 ) for the subframe? Witch I do not have.

 

I've bought new wishbone arms, and new sway bar links as well as the wrong bushing for the sway bar ( I have a close to 24mm sway bar the bushing was marked 21.8mm). I'm planning to just buy the sway bar at the local dealer and hope that the delivery of that aint too bad. If that goes well I'll pull it together with new wishbone, swaybar links, and anti roll bar and hope that har cured the ratteling (and a pass of the mot). the uncool part is that I feel I havn't found anything that was not as it should talking everything apart so far, but I'm a youtube mecanic and not a skilled mechanic.

 

Have anyone else successfully change the sway bar and dit it solve the ratteling?

Edited 10 December, 20232 yr by lhlied

Even if the subframe is refitted using the alignment tool, wheel alignment is always needed as a tiny movement in the subframe translates to a big movement in the steering geometry.

 

Officially the anti roll bar bushes can’t be had separate and need to be ordered complete with the entire anti roll bar but some companies sell bushes now.

i was anyway planning to get a wheel-alignment done professionaly, but what happens if I pull it together and not aligned, they probably gave to fix the aligenment of the subframe as part of the wheel-alignment I guess?

Is there such a thing as a subframe alignment tool?

 

I know a couple of the Motorsport providers sell them but they are a complete con and I would be really really surprised if the manufacturer or main dealer has such an animal.

 

Why? - Well you have to ask yourself why are there such great clearances around the subframe locating bolts that an alleged special tool is needed to centralise each one which if you know anything about tolerancing you would know is an impossibility.

 

The reason is so the front axle can be aligned with and set parallel to the rear axle, the "Thrust Angle" that is quoted on 4 wheel alignment print-outs. It is done in the factory without centralising tools and should be done whenever the front subframe is dropped.

 

I sprayed a marker paint over my fixing bolts and washers so as to replace it in the same position, it did not go to plan and the vehicle had a severe steering pull afterwards and needed torque applied to the steering wheel to drive straight with the wheel being off centre.

 

I did my own 4 wheel alignment using laser spirit levels on a rim mounted fixture and marking a target card at the B post, moving the subframe to its maximum I could not quite get the spot on alignment I wanted even straining it with a ratchet strap to the rear axle before tightening the bolts.

 

The rear axle was slightly misaligned, what I should have been doing was aligning both of them to the thrust angle of the bodywork but as only the front had been removed thats what I was adjusting, I could not release some of the rear subframe fixing bolts working from the ground, I just could not apply the force required on my longest breaker bar, i needed to be under a ramp working at shoulder height.

 

So I had to accept the best that I could do with adjusting only the front subframe, the car drove perfectly afterwards, tracks in a straight line with hands off the wheel and the steering wheel central, it is surely within the manufacturers tolerance, I have now done 55K miles on that set of tyres which were not new when I bought the car so no excessive tyre wear.

 

lhlied. If you did not mark the location of the subframe then you should resort to string lines and tape measure etc to try and get the best alignment that you can, yes the 4 wheel alignement places should adjust the subframe but my experience is that most do not or even understand the need to do so, they will often tell you that you need to buy the centralising spacer stupidities which says everything about their knowledge and competence.

 

 

Edited 11 December, 20232 yr by J.R.

8 hours ago, J.R. said:

Is there such a thing as a subframe alignment tool?

 

I know a couple of the Motorsport providers sell them but they are a complete con and I would be really really surprised if the manufacturer or main dealer has such an animal.

 

Why? - Well you have to ask yourself why are there such great clearances around the subframe locating bolts that an alleged special tool is needed to centralise each one which if you know anything about tolerancing you would know is an impossibility.

 

The reason is so the front axle can be aligned with and set parallel to the rear axle, the "Thrust Angle" that is quoted on 4 wheel alignment print-outs. It is done in the factory without centralising tools and should be done whenever the front subframe is dropped.

 

I sprayed a marker paint over my fixing bolts and washers so as to replace it in the same position, it did not go to plan and the vehicle had a severe steering pull afterwards and needed torque applied to the steering wheel to drive straight with the wheel being off centre.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have to use the subframe centralising tools ...this is from the ERWIN (VAG) workshop books for the MK7 Golf, which is the same as the MK3 Octavia...

 

Of note is the last paragraph:- "If the steering wheel is found to be off centre during the road test even though locating pins - T10486/1- were used, check wheel alignment. In this case the wheel alignment test results must be archived in the vehicle files."

 

 

 

 

 

 

I bought a set similar or the same as that out of curiosity. 

By inspection I concluded that they aren't for centralising so much as for 'putting back in same position as it was pre-removal' which isn't likely to be central. 

 

So no use if not acquired til after removal.

I think once I'd realised their real purpose the workshop  instructions made more sense.

 

 

 

Impressive to do a wheel alignment DIY. Thanks for posting and comments. No, I was not smart or experienced enough to mark anything regarding the alignment. I'm still planning to get a wheel alignment done (or in general alignment) after all is done. I'll try to update here as well when I know more of what and why. 

The alignment tool google and the work manual I've found is T10486/1, fairly inexpensive even at the dealer. I've been told from the dealership that the anti rollbar exists in two versions (and different thicknesses) with or without glued bushings. Though glue is not the correct word. The bushing is something like melted to the iron. It really sticks very good to it. From what I know now the sway bar link was probably ok, and not needed for a change. Also the dealership told me that its not a common part to change. So for the one out there with ratteling consider to change everything else in the suspension like wishbone and sway bar links before you'll attempt the sway bar. Its much more time consuming and tricky since the subframe has to be lowered. On the positive side it is possible to do even at the driveway with jackstands since I've done it, or at least done half of the job, removed it. Btw Borsehung B10809 was the part I ordered that had stamped Ø 21,7mm on the side of it, so I didn't attempt to try use it on my sway bar that is close to 24mm. My car: 2014 mk3 octavia 2.0 tdi 4x4 150bhp.

I'll try to update my findings on my way back to a hopefully drivable car. One this is to dismantle, another is to pull it back in working order... I'm curios to see what the outcome of all of this operation will be. Will I fix the rattle issue, not be able to pull it back together, get new faults? we'll see.

 

Here the info on how to do alignment of the subframe, but it seems the vw golf edition of the manual explain this in more details.

Edited 11 December, 20232 yr by lhlied

3 hours ago, Breezy_Pete said:

I bought a set similar or the same as that out of curiosity. 

By inspection I concluded that they aren't for centralising so much as for 'putting back in same position as it was pre-removal' which isn't likely to be central. 

 

So no use if not acquired til after removal.

I think once I'd realised their real purpose the workshop  instructions made more sense.

 

 

 

Thanks Pete, that makes a lot more sense and was the conclusion I had drawn from reading the details of the workshop instructions, whilst it did not say that given my experience (fools rush in!) I thought it had to be intended for that reason, knowing that you have had them in your hand and drew the same conclusion is reassuring.

 

My car drove OK before I dropped the subframe to change the clutch, it was diabolical after and intriguing that I could not get enough adjustment for correct alignment, however my laser setting showed me that it was the rear that I should really have been working on, getting that straight & then aligning the front to it, I'm sure the front bolts would then have fallen quite centrally in the holes. I reckon someone has dropped the rear subframe in the past and refitted it by eye without using the re-alignment tools which is probably a better term for them.

 

From the text: "The original position of the subframe relative to the body can be retained with the aid of........"

 

 

Edited 12 December, 20232 yr by J.R.

3 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

You have to use the subframe centralising tools

 

I think between us we have established without any doubt that the tool is not for centralising the subframe but for putting it back in the same position, VAG would have used normal H7 tolerances on the sleeves had they intended it to be centralised instead of the huge amount of slack available.

 

The motorsport centralising sets are a very expensive Chocolate Teapot.

7 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

I think between us we have established without any doubt that the tool is not for centralising the subframe but for putting it back in the same position, VAG would have used normal H7 tolerances on the sleeves had they intended it to be centralised instead of the huge amount of slack available.

 

The motorsport centralising sets are a very expensive Chocolate Teapot.

 

 

Its a "retain fixed previous position" tool.....

 

The reason for the huge amount of slack is to allow for tolerance/adjustment in a crashed car that has been repaired.

 

What are you meaning by "motorsport centralising sets"???

 

If you mean things like this..

 

RacingLine Subframe Alignment For MK7 Golf, Audi S3, Leon Cupra, vRS

 

.....then these are "locking kits"...These are to more securely lock the subframe to the bodyshell all the time There is no "lock" between the subframes & the bodyshell, just the clamping force of the bolts & as those bolts go through a big hole in the subframe, the subframes can & do move around under extremes...especially with the heavier engines & more torque/power...

 

In the USA many homes have big concrete driveways will steep angle off ramps, & when turning into it can cause the subframe to move...This is what I hear from the USA members on the Golf forums.

 

Also the Aluminium MQB subframe has serrated washers between it & the bodywork for the exact same reason...& many people when upgrading to this subframe forget about them & then the wheel alignment goes out within a year of fitting it!...

3 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

Its a "retain fixed previous position" tool.....

 

Good description, my English is no longer good enough to have found the right words, I trust that you will use the phrase in future instead of "subframe centralising tools"

3 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

If you mean things like this..

 

RacingLine Subframe Alignment For MK7 Golf, Audi S3, Leon Cupra, vRS

 

.....then these are "locking kits"...These are to more securely lock the subframe to the bodyshell all the time

 

Exactly those!

 

"Our precision-engineered, push-in Bolt Collars centralise the subframes by cutting out the huge hole tolerances, so perfectly centring the bolt locations every time you refit.The result? With correct alignment, you’ll keep precise steering, sharper handling"

 

Now those you could have called subframe centralising kits.

 

The bit about correct alignment is of course total nonsense hence my earlier comments.

Edited 12 December, 20232 yr by J.R.

These bolts that are supposed to enable the subframe to be reattached in its original position are in my opinion a waste of time and money having just used them on a Golf. Removing the subframe takes longer. Refitting is very difficult as the subframe has to be dead square to fit over the bolts. End result.....the subframe was clearly not in the original position. Realigned by eye using the obvious marks of the original fitting. Bolts thrown in the bin.

I didn't understood before I read the last posts here that the alignment tool is not a alignment tool, but at tool to get it back to the previous state. So in my shoes that leads to that the tool is useless as of now since I didn't use it before I pulled the subframe down. I'm curious to see how far off and how bad it will be when I pull this back again to see how it aligns up. That said I was planning to let the professional paid garage do the (wheeel) alignment, but didn't realise before I started this job that the subframe is a vital part of the alignment and that I should have taken action before I lowered it to be able to get it back into position. Now I know, just a litte loo late, however I'm still thankful for the postes here that give me more knowledge. I'll try to use the marks from the original fitting by eye to pull it together hopefully close enough to get the car drivable. Today I've collected the new sway bar from the dealer and are planning to start to pull it together this evening.

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

Exactly those!

 

"Our precision-engineered, push-in Bolt Collars centralise the subframes by cutting out the huge hole tolerances, so perfectly centring the bolt locations every time you refit.The result? With correct alignment, you’ll keep precise steering, sharper handling"

 

Now those you could have called subframe centralising kits.

 

The bit about correct alignment is of course total nonsense hence my earlier comments.

 

 

Unfortunately marketing gets in the way..as the term "centralising" could be taken to also mean that it makes the alignment "central"....

 

You have loads of adjustment on the tie-rods, & you have quite a bit of "movement" for the top mounts for the Macpherson struts..both if moved will mess up your alignment....so its marketing again!!....

 

They are a "locking kit" as they prevent the subframe moving side to side & back to front due to the difference in void between the bolt & the holes......in fact think of them as a "solid bush"....Also as they have flanges/lips they do "lock" into the bodyshell..!!!

 

 

1 hour ago, fabdavrav said:

They are a "locking kit" as they prevent the subframe moving side to side & back to front due to the difference in void between the bolt & the holes......in fact think of them as a "solid bush"

 

Yes I understand what they do, which belies yet another of the BS claims being made:

 

"No additional NVH transfer into the car and no more creaking mounts."

 

How do you move the strut top mounts?

Edited 12 December, 20232 yr by J.R.

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

 

 

Yes I understand what they do, which belies yet another of the BS claims being made:

 

"No additional NVH transfer into the car and no more creaking mounts."

 

How do you move the strut top mounts?

 

 

Marketing people who write the websites just copy & paste stuff from other bits...

 

As for the strut top mounts...usually there is some "latitude" for movement....my old mK1 Fabia had quite a bit of "postioning" movement before I decided on a position & torqued the bolts...

Very little on the Yeti and Octavia, 3 x 8mm h7 tolerance clearance holes in the strut tower.

 

To have "quite a bit of "movement" for the top mounts for the Macpherson struts" would be an intentional measure like for the subframe mountings and is unlikely for the reason you mention -

"if moved will mess up your alignment"

 

Were that to be the case there would be service tools to maintain the positioning.

Edited 12 December, 20232 yr by J.R.

Update: Today I've installed the swaybar and got the subframe and steering rack back up again. Nearly done with working with the subframe. I've forgot about the fact that skoda/vag really likes to use strechbolts for everything. In the manual nearly if not all bolts I've removed in noted in the manual that they have to be replaced. So I will probably be ordering tomorrow from the dealer all necessarily bolts to pull it back together. Might not be necessarily(?) but I assume it should be done. I don't think the alignment of the subframe will end in a disaster since the old markings of where the subframe was attached are very visible. Should be possible to align it close to where it used to be by just by fitting by eye as mentioned above, even for an amateur like me.

Yeah, thats what I thought 😒

Another question, less than a year ago I installed new suspension and new springs. Right now the subframe is installed, wishbone / track control arm is still not install thus removed. Suspension is then mounted in the top bolts and in the cv-coint. I do however see that there is a difference in the distance from the suspension to the sway-bar. On passenger side the sway bar is touching the suspension. On driver side there is a gap of around 1cm or so. Could it be that the suspension on the passenger side is not correct mounted / pulled together?

Once I leveled out / put everything back to normal the difference of the cv-shaft to the sway link got reduced to beeing around the same on both sides.

 

New question: Does anybody have a clue where this insulation / noise reduction part should be on the car?

On most of your questions I don't have answer, but I do on bushings rattle, or crack or squeak. In the summer I was able to to silent them almost completely, but on the winter, man... Like a ****ty car, and the first time I have started calling upon warranty it had only 10.000km.

 

The issue are the bigger bushings in the back of the lower (and only) front arm.

 

Finally about 15-20 days ago, and 6 years after first complaint, 110.000km later, we have found that bushings for B8 4motion are good. Yes, needed wheel alignment after the replacement, it made the huge difference. Car was perfectly driveable, but I felt very little something was wrong on higher speeds in my lower back (140+ km/h), like a side wind, where there was no.

 

After the alignment,  with new bushings. Man. What a car. How it is again silent, and pointy, and tight and perfect. I was thinking of selling it after 7y. I will not.

 

Good luck in your adventure. Looks like you're onto it well. 

Edited 19 December, 20232 yr by nidza

Super thanks for feedback and comments. My hope is that the car will be a good car again. I think the problem stared after one of the springs broke (around a year+ ago). I replaced suspension+spiring front both sides, and swaybar-link. Though I think there was my mistake when I worked with the swaybar.link. Didn't counterhold (at first didn't know, didn't understood how to do it). This time I've changed the swaybar-link using correct tools and counterhold. Though don't have a torque wrench that has the possible to counterhold, but still by feel it should be possible to fasten it well enough I guess.

The car has always had a sound doing reverse and changing the wheels from full side to another side. Might be cv-joint? But I was hoping that now since I have replaced everything that is suspensionrelated in the front of the car I have a good driveable car again. 

 

I think the insulation / noise reduction that I need to verify where I removed it could be inside the car where the pedals are located. I did pull out the stuff there to be able to reach the steering connected to the steering rod. Just felt that it didn't fit there. But I'll investigate furter by checking on the passenger side to see how it looks there to try to figure out how it should be. Hope to be soon done. It's taken rather much time this operation. But working outside in winter, ice, show, rain and windy condition lets say its suboptimal. Would have been done much quicker if I had a garage indoor to work. 

Looks like fire shield to me, so its probably outside somewhere, mounted vertically, between the engine and passenger compartment.