The bear needs new front tyres... anyone care to recommend something (Conti SC5 from new)? I've made peace with the fact they're going to cost me ~£200 each, unless someone wants to tell me Accelera (whoever they are) tyres are actually very good despite being half the price of everything else.

Not surprisingly I'm in the same boat.  I'm going all season.  Goodyear Vector 4Seasons Gen-3 at £233 per corner fitted.

Changing all 4? Or are you leaving the rears alone?

 

My rear pair are still in surprisingly good nick, but then I've only just cracked 20k miles.

I'm biting the bullet and doing all 4.  I'm just shy of 20k too, and likewise rears are in good nick.

 

I've been umming and ahhing for months.  Garage reckons the fronts wouldn't get through MOT in January.  If doing just one axel I think the advice is put the new ones on the rear, but having part worn summer tires on the front (that's doing the vast majority of the work) for winter didn't seem right to me.  Just do them all then!

In June I bought 4 Goodyear Vector 4Seasons from ASDA.

 

£485 delivered.

 

Sorry - they are 17" for my spare winter wheels.

Edited 30 September, 20241 yr by BoxerBoy

got a set of Hankook Prime 4 in the summer for a tick under €500 for 235/55R18. Reasonably impressed - they're quite quiet, grippy and nothing untoward. the old summers were scorpion verde, so either they were a second set or they held up *incredibly* well. 62k miles with a new set of winters? Nah, there must have been a summer set in there, too.

For winter, though, I will be changing next weekend to the winter tyres and then getting another set of spikes... probably the Michelin X-Ice norths.

 

Crossclimates seem to be pretty good. And on a 4x4 I would definitely rotate (and will now with the winters, and the summers when they go back on) as the fronts seem to wear significantly faster than the rears.

21 minutes ago, BoxerBoy said:

£485 delivered.

 

Sorry - they are 17" for my spare winter wheels.

 

Yeah… last time I ever buy a car with 20” wheels. 🤦‍♂️

 

3 hours ago, Dappernut said:

I'm biting the bullet and doing all 4.

 

As I don’t live in North Yorkshire, I’m veering towards straight replacements (never had an issue with ‘summer’ tyres all year round down here). MOT due next month and it would be borderline, so doing them now.

12 hours ago, Yogi-Bear said:

Yeah… last time I ever buy a car with 20” wheels. 🤦‍♂️

 

I see.  21" next time then. 😉 

12 hours ago, Yogi-Bear said:

As I don’t live in North Yorkshire, I’m veering towards straight replacements (never had an issue with ‘summer’ tyres all year round down here). MOT due next month and it would be borderline, so doing them now.

 

I've never had anything other than summer tires before, so TBH this is a bit of an experinment.  Do I need them?  No as I've always managed with summer tires.

 

Are you just doing the worn pair, or all four?

1 hour ago, Dappernut said:

Are you just doing the worn pair, or all four?

 

As I'm planning on swapping like-for-like, just the front pair. No point wasting money when the rears are perfectly fine.

11 hours ago, Yogi-Bear said:

 

As I'm planning on swapping like-for-like, just the front pair. No point wasting money when the rears are perfectly fine.

 

Put the new ones on the back and swap the backs to the front.

12 hours ago, xspartx said:

Put the new ones on the back and swap the backs to the front.

 

Because...?

 

In my mind, that just means I'm going to need another new set on the front quicker.

On 30/09/2024 at 17:55, Dappernut said:

I'm biting the bullet and doing all 4.  I'm just shy of 20k too, and likewise rears are in good nick.

 

I've been umming and ahhing for months.  Garage reckons the fronts wouldn't get through MOT in January.  If doing just one axel I think the advice is put the new ones on the rear, but having part worn summer tires on the front (that's doing the vast majority of the work) for winter didn't seem right to me.  Just do them all then!

Does anyone know why that advice of putting the new ones on the rear is given ? 
I would rotate the tyres earlier so all 4 need replacing at the same time but if the fronts are worn out and the rears are ok,  just put the new pair on the front and replace the rears whenever they wear out.

Rear to front is OK with not just good tread, but tyres that have not become 'shaped' from being on the rear as many a tyre does become, especially wider ones.

Hardened tyres that have lasted without obvious wear just because of the compound. 

It should not take long after they are on and at the correct pressure to know if the traction is pathetic in the damp and the steering skittery.

See here from Continental by example:-  https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/b2c/tyre-knowledge/mixing-tyres/#:~:text=The tyre industry recommends fitting,vehicle stability on slippery surfaces.

 

It all seems crystal clear, until it goes on to muddy the waters by saying this may not apply to front wheel drive!  Perhaps the advice should have been "fit new tyres on the primary driven axel, and in the case of a 50:50 power split then fit them on the rear"?

rear tyre / the rear axle provides stability at speed. Drive on a wet motorway with poor rear traction and you'll really feel it - the tail wags too easily and is generally unsettled. Under dodgy conditions, it's going to be super-obvious, because the rear is the part that's guiding the car around the corner. Lack of front traction will mean you just shoot forward instead of going around, lack of rear will give you oversteer. And 4x4 won't help much because it can't.
 

It's another reason why rotation is a thing and should be practiced. I always move mine when swtiching between summer and winter.

 

On 02/10/2024 at 12:12, classic said:

Does anyone know why that advice of putting the new ones on the rear is given ? 
I would rotate the tyres earlier so all 4 need replacing at the same time but if the fronts are worn out and the rears are ok,  just put the new pair on the front and replace the rears whenever they wear out.

The advice is because the new tyres are expected to be the best tyres on the vehicle, and by putting the best tyres on the rear axle, the car is less likely to oversteer, which is a characteristic most drivers cannot cope with on the roads. That is the thinking behind it, whether you agree with it or not is a different matter.

3 minutes ago, EnterName said:

the car is less likely to oversteer

It’s less likely to oversteer in a FWD vehicle anyway. Surely having the ‘best’ tyres on the axel that provides power and steering, rather than just being pulled around, is more optimal?

 

And yes, I appreciate it’s not quite as simple as that, and adding AWD into the equation makes it even less so… but I can’t see that for the normal person, who doesn’t regularly drive at the limit of their vehicle and/or tyres, it’s going to make much of a difference.

1 minute ago, Yogi-Bear said:

It’s less likely to oversteer in a FWD vehicle anyway. Surely having the ‘best’ tyres on the axel that provides power and steering, rather than just being pulled around, is more optimal?

 

And yes, I appreciate it’s not quite as simple as that, and adding AWD into the equation makes it even less so… but I can’t see that for the normal person, who doesn’t regularly drive at the limit of their vehicle and/or tyres, it’s going to make much of a difference.

This is a tyre that came off a colleague's MPV at work a few years ago. (He's an experienced engineer and we make safety-critical products.)

This is what the people issuing advice on new tyres are up against: People who may be clueless, stupid, don't care about their tyres or a combination of all of those factors.

All things considered, with the emphasis on stopping stupid people getting into accidents, I think it's a good call to recommend putting the new tyres on the back axel.

You can always mandate to have them put on the front if you prefer.

11 minutes ago, EnterName said:

This is a tyre that came off a colleague's MPV at work a few years ago. (He's an experienced engineer and we make safety-critical products.)

 

Irrelevant.

 

11 minutes ago, EnterName said:

This is what the people issuing advice on new tyres are up against: People who may be clueless, stupid, don't care about their tyres or a combination of all of those factors.

 

If you have to resort to semi-disguised personal insults, any other point you make is going to get lost in the noise.

 

13 minutes ago, EnterName said:

All things considered, with the emphasis on stopping stupid people getting into accidents, I think it's a good call to recommend putting the new tyres on the back axel.

 

And yet no-one has adequately explained why it's a good call. On a RWD vehicle, even stupid ol' me can see why it's a good call. But on a FWD vehicle, it really doesn't make much sense - to me at least, and judging by the conversation, others as well. If you'd like to have another go at explaining why, on a FWD vehicle, you should have the best tyres at the back and how that's going to stop me getting into accidents, then feel free to do so.

 

For what it's worth (probably not a lot), my thinking is that the front tyres are doing all the work - they're putting the power down on the road, and they're doing the steering. Therefore, they should have the most grip. The rear tyres are also just being pulled along. For the average Joe on the road (such as myself), why should I be concerned about stability at speed? I (usually) pootle along at 65mph on a motorway and enjoy the journey, rather than trying to get where I'm going 5 minutes quicker, and if the weather conditions dictate, I might go a bit slower but I'll definitely be paying a lot more attention and care. I don't go round corners anywhere near fast enough that oversteer is likely to ever be a problem (I used to drive a RWD BMW years ago, and it wasn't a problem then either). And my evidence for the front tyres doing all the work is that they are the ones that have worn out and need replacing, whilst the rear tyres still have plenty of tread.

Take the chip off your shoulder @Yogi-Bear.

It was NOT irrelevant, and my point was well made. I was in no way calling YOU stupid in that post.

However your triggered response to my suggestion that there are careless morons out and about on the road, and guidance has to be issued with such people in mind, coupled with the fact that I'm having to explain the difference between understeer and oversteer in greater detail as you couldn't grasp the concept when I made the point in a sentence, is evidence that you might not be the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

That's a YOU problem. 🤷‍♂️

 

10 hours ago, Yogi-Bear said:

And yet no-one has adequately explained why it's a good call. On a RWD vehicle, even stupid ol' me can see why it's a good call. But on a FWD vehicle, it really doesn't make much sense - to me at least, and judging by the conversation, others as well. If you'd like to have another go at explaining why, on a FWD vehicle, you should have the best tyres at the back and how that's going to stop me getting into accidents, then feel free to do so.

I thought I'd explained myself pretty clearly here. Oh well, here goes again. Don't be replying to this post telling me you know all this already and don't need me to explain it at length, because that is literally what you just asked for.

 

Put simply, it's because of lift-off oversteer.

If a driver gets a bit out of shape in a car, they tend to brake, or at least lift off the throttle. This is well known, so most cars are set up to understeer if you go round a bend too fast.

When you do slow the car that has lost grip in understeer, there is a weight transfer, with more weight put onto the front tyres, and less weight on the back tyres.

As a result of this weight transfer, the front tyres grip more and the rear tyres grip less. (If you've ever ridden a bike, you should know all about weight transfer under braking.)

All being well, the car slows a bit, more weight transfers onto the understeering front tyres, which (fingers crossed) get more grip, and the driver makes it round the corner with the rear of the car obediently following the front. If this doesn't work, then the car continues the understeer and goes in a straight-ish line off the road.

 

This front grip gain and rear grip loss is exacerbated if you have tyres with more grip on the front, even before the weight transfer.

So if you have less grippy tyres on the back, when you get into your understeer situation, your most grippy tyres at the front have lost traction already, and as you slow the car while trying to go round the bend, you will initiate the weight transfer. At this time, you will lift vehicle weight off the back tyres onto the front tyres, and while the front tyres may regain grip, the combination of less grippy tyres at the back and less weight over those less grippy rear tyres at the rear can provoke oversteer. Oversteer is where the rear of the car does not obediently follow the front, but slides outwards turning the vehicle more than required. Such oversteer induced by slowing around a bend is called lift-off oversteer. Here's a fairly mild example of lift-off oversteer which the driver, who by the sound of the engine is fairly enthusiastic, discovers lift-off oversteer. While he quickly catches and corrects it, he ends up on the wrong side of the road facing oncoming traffic.

 

So to summarise:

Understeer sends you in a fairly predictable straight-ish line off the road, and is easy to correct by simply slowing down, which most people do instinctively without training.

Oversteer is less predictable, requires skill to catch and correct, and instinctive slowing down makes it worse.

The more grip you have at the rear, the less likely you are to oversteer when going round a bend too fast.

 

That is about as simple as I can make it.

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by EnterName

50 minutes ago, EnterName said:

Take the chip off your shoulder @Yogi-Bear.

You could use a little of your own advice there, but let’s gloss over your continued propensity for personal abuse and move on.

 

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I now understand the point you are trying to make, although I would suggest that simply saying ‘oversteer bad’ as you did in your first attempt wasn’t actually as helpful as you evidently thought it was… and neither was getting annoyed when someone asked you to elaborate.

 

And yes, the photo of your colleague’s tyre along with a description of his profession was irrelevant. You provided absolutely no context to the photo or why you had posted it - if you had, then it might not have been quite so irrelevant. Telling us what happened to the tyre or to your colleague would have been a start.

 

I still don’t think (yes, just my opinion, but I’m allowed one) Average Joe is going to get bitten in the arse because of this. Idiot Boy is still going to be going too fast round the bend for anything to stop him hitting the tree. Old Lady is still going to reverse into that parked car or lamppost. BMW/Audi/Mercedes Man might benefit when he’s driving like a loon, but he’ll find a way to have an accident anyway. Perhaps the problem is there just aren’t enough Average Joe’s around anymore who try to drive safely and not put their vehicles into a situation where understeer or oversteer are ever going to be a problem. Of course, there’s always going to be that patch of black ice that screws everything up no matter how new the tyres are on either axle - been there, survived that.

 

If I’m wrong and die in an oversteer induced fireball next week, then please feel free to say you told me so. And call me stupid.

 

Honestly Yogi, the advice was given in good faith.

 

It's generally better to have decent tyres on the back, but at the end of the day it's your call.

Last winter I removed two quite worn bridgestones from the front of my Skoda karoq front wheel drive and replaced them with two vredestien winters and left two summer Bridgestones with about 6mm on the back. The first shower of snow and the car was undrinkable, plenty of traction and front grip, but the rear was like driving on castors. I immediately bought another two vredestien winters because of the loss of rear grip. My summer wheels, with 4 kormoran all the same age need the fronts replacing. There is virtually no wear on the rears, when they get put back on in the spring those 2 will be on the front and 2 new tyres will be on the back, quite possibly more kormoran as they have been decent tyres.