8 hours ago, xspartx said:

Honestly Yogi, the advice was given in good faith.

I don’t think I disputed that at any point. But when did it become a crime to ask for further explanation?

 

There are plenty of recommendations that end up being parroted over time and either no one ends up knowing why, or the original advice was from a biased source. Advice given in good faith isn’t always the best advice (and I’m in no way saying that’s the case here, before someone jumps down my throat).

11 hours ago, Yogi-Bear said:

You could use a little of your own advice there, but let’s gloss over your continued propensity for personal abuse and move on.

 

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I now understand the point you are trying to make, although I would suggest that simply saying ‘oversteer bad’ as you did in your first attempt wasn’t actually as helpful as you evidently thought it was… and neither was getting annoyed when someone asked you to elaborate.

 

And yes, the photo of your colleague’s tyre along with a description of his profession was irrelevant. You provided absolutely no context to the photo or why you had posted it - if you had, then it might not have been quite so irrelevant. Telling us what happened to the tyre or to your colleague would have been a start.

 

I still don’t think (yes, just my opinion, but I’m allowed one) Average Joe is going to get bitten in the arse because of this. Idiot Boy is still going to be going too fast round the bend for anything to stop him hitting the tree. Old Lady is still going to reverse into that parked car or lamppost. BMW/Audi/Mercedes Man might benefit when he’s driving like a loon, but he’ll find a way to have an accident anyway. Perhaps the problem is there just aren’t enough Average Joe’s around anymore who try to drive safely and not put their vehicles into a situation where understeer or oversteer are ever going to be a problem. Of course, there’s always going to be that patch of black ice that screws everything up no matter how new the tyres are on either axle - been there, survived that.

 

If I’m wrong and die in an oversteer induced fireball next week, then please feel free to say you told me so. And call me stupid.

I did not simply say "oversteer bad" in my first attempt. I said the following.

23 hours ago, EnterName said:

The advice is because the new tyres are expected to be the best tyres on the vehicle, and by putting the best tyres on the rear axle, the car is less likely to oversteer, which is a characteristic most drivers cannot cope with on the roads. That is the thinking behind it, whether you agree with it or not is a different matter.

That is a clear and understandable explanation of why new tyres are recommended to go on the rear axle of a car.

That original answer was, though I say so myself, pretty much perfect, and it continues to hold true. Particularly my closing "whether you agree with it or not is a different matter".

I was bemused at why you asked me to elaborate, but elaboration is not a problem. (Frankly, getting me to limit my elaboration is usually more of a problem.)

I can usually explain what I understand, and it seems my explanation has done the trick. Hurrah!

 

I didn't get annoyed that you asked me to elaborate, I got annoyed that you assumed I was insulting you.

While I'm at it, my highlighting of my mate's disgraceful tyre shows that even people who should know better can end-up driving a death trap, and guidelines have to be put in place to cover the lowest common denominator.

For the same reason, we now have warning notices on McDonald's coffee to let people know the contents are hot.

& out on UK cambered roads in UK weather and road surfaces be it FWD, RWD , Part Time Front or Rear AWD or 4x4 with crap on the front even people that know when they have under steer, over steer. are aqua planning, sliding sideways on ice etc if you have no traction / friction or ability to steer from the front wheels you are a passenger up sh!t creak.

Waiting to see if the Electronics or luck gets you out of the situation. 

Just had the Vector 4Season fitted yesterday and was suprised to discover the old Continental ContactSport from the factory had the seal inside anti-puncture treatment.  I never knew.  Garage fitting the Vectors were very concerned that I'd now be stranded at the side of the road in the event of a puncture, however they'd assumed the vehicle didn't have a spare (which it does).

On 05/10/2024 at 08:10, Yogi-Bear said:

I don’t think I disputed that at any point. But when did it become a crime to ask for further explanation?

 

There are plenty of recommendations that end up being parroted over time and either no one ends up knowing why, or the original advice was from a biased source. Advice given in good faith isn’t always the best advice (and I’m in no way saying that’s the case here, before someone jumps down my throat).

 

No offence taken at all.

 

Short answer is it helps with oversteer.

Michelin's take:-

 

 

Thanks. AG Falco

 

 

19 hours ago, AGFalco said:

Michelin's take:-

 

 

Thanks. AG Falco

 

 

Ah! My post in video form. How useful. Thanks @AGFalco

On 05/10/2024 at 11:37, Dappernut said:

Just had the Vector 4Season fitted yesterday and was suprised to discover the old Continental ContactSport from the factory had the seal inside anti-puncture treatment.  I never knew.  Garage fitting the Vectors were very concerned that I'd now be stranded at the side of the road in the event of a puncture, however they'd assumed the vehicle didn't have a spare (which it does).

Yogi is on the ramp having his changed as I type this. Same story, Seal Inside tyres fitted, garage checked with me that I realised this, although their opinion was slightly different - they don’t rate their usefulness so didn’t challenge my choice of normal CS5s as replacements.

Does your car have the spare?

Yes… think all facelift cars came with a spare. Certainly didn’t pay extra for it. First bear only had the gunk and inflator kit.

1 hour ago, Yogi-Bear said:

Seal Inside tyres fitted, garage checked with me that I realised this, although their opinion was slightly different - they don’t rate their usefulness

Can get you out of trouble if the puncture is in the tyre tread.

 

But still no use to a cut/hole in the sidewall of the tyre.

 

If you have a spare then you still have a get out of jail free card you can use.

 

Thanks. AG Falco

I know this is old now. But just a couple of comments that have not been mentioned.

On 04/10/2024 at 10:17, Yogi-Bear said:

And yes, I appreciate it’s not quite as simple as that, and adding AWD into the equation makes it even less so… but I can’t see that for the normal person, who doesn’t regularly drive at the limit of their vehicle and/or tyres, it’s going to make much of a difference.

 

You have understeer in a FWD car by design under acceleration and oversteer in most - not all - RWD cars by design.

 

On 08/10/2024 at 20:26, AGFalco said:

Michelin's take:

 

 

Thanks. AG Falco

 

 

One thing has only briefly been mentioned in this youtube clip - weight transfer.

When you are braking, cornering or, as in the first clip mentioned, changing lanes abruptly a dynamic weight shift occurres. This means that one axle becomes "lighter" and there is less traction on those tyres. If your tares are in a poor condition or if you have the wrong tyres for the road condition you loose grip and traction your car takes over, i.e. you are the passenger. As said before, understeer is more benign and more controllable than oversteer.

 

The frequent references to "traction" in this topic are mostly in my view an incorrect choice of noun where "grip" or perhaps an even better noun (I'm losing my English) should be used.

 

To me traction is the measure of the tyres ability to transmit motive force and hence can only be used to describe wheels on a driven axle and does not play a part in a front tyres steering ability unless the driver wheelspins which all modern vehicle stability systems counter.

 

I guess what I am saying is using loss of traction when describing an undriven wheels inability to follow its 90° to axle forward trajectory is confusing and incorrect, but that is just me, what does it mean to you?

 

I recall a triangle diagram with each corner representing traction, steering and braking (I think, it has been a long time) it may have been in the RAC MSA blue book, the dsitnce from each corner to the centroid being the force.  If you increased one force moving the corner outward (imagine the triangle being string pulled taut around 3 moveable nails then the other corners would move inwards (angles becoming more obtuse) and the force be it traction, braking or steering reduced.

 

 

Negative traction equals braking.

You also need traction when cornering.

Traction is frictional force no matter in what direction it occurs. It is not just driven wheels that transmit traction.