Braking down to speed before corner then balancing car with throttle on turn in so there is no engine breaking to take away presciouse cornering friction then a gradual aplication of throttle from apex out is quickest.

There is a school of thought that says braking on the approach to a speed that you can then get back hard on the power before even turning the wheel for the corner is quicker still. That way you are actually applying more throttle for a longer period of time which means you carry more speed at the exit.

It's also amazing how much feedback you actually get through the wheel (even in a car with PAS) if you relax your grip and use your fingertips to measure the resistance to turn (aka level of grip)

Chris

There is a school of thought that says braking on the approach to a speed that you can then get back hard on the power before even turning the wheel for the corner is quicker still. That way you are actually applying more throttle for a longer period of time which means you carry more speed at the exit.

It's also amazing how much feedback you actually get through the wheel (even in a car with PAS) if you relax your grip and use your fingertips to measure the resistance to turn (aka level of grip)

Chris

Chris, some people can interpret feed back, but to some it's wasted

Some people need to ride a bike

Chris, some people can interpret feed back, but to some it's wasted

I'd agree to a point, but it is a skill that can be "unlocked". I spent a day with Don Palmer at Bruntingthorpe and was amazed at how much feedback my slow, crappy rep-mobile actually provided and how much useful information I had actually been ignoring previously. I've translated it to a number of cars since then and all cars offer feedback at some level and it's that which enables the driver to hint at the steering to wake the tyres up and maximise the available grip in the tyres.

Highly recommended course to anyone and the same principles apply to both the track and the road

Chris

I agree with this, although it also highlights what the driver is capable of doing which is perhaps the more important thing! I can highly recommend a day on Don Palmer's Limit Handling Course if you haven't already. It certainly made me appreciate how far off the car's limit I drive on the road and also the feedback the tyres and suspension are giving me which helps me to manage the available grip.

Hence why on the road, you can get any FWD car quickly and safely round a corner without understeering by feeling the grip available and making best use of it. Feeding the wheel in and turning at the start of the corner under acceleration allow you to maintain far higher levels of grip and hence speed through the corner, than barreling into a corner and then having to react to running out of grip to try and regain control with lots of "opposite lock" and lifting off. The latter seems more prevalent on the road and means that despite having less power and more weight, I can still get past a lot of faster machinery

Chris

Yep! That's how I do it too. Even to the point of dropping it down a gear half way round a roundabout to accelerate cleanly off it. Voom! I've now got to the point of annoying Merc & Beemer drivers - they don't like to be overtaken by a bog standard Felly :lol: I hardly use the brakes at all either. Engine brake to a corner/bend/junction and you're in the right gear at the right speed to take it as fast as is humanly possible (within speed limits of course :P)

There is a school of thought that says braking on the approach to a speed that you can then get back hard on the power before even turning the wheel for the corner is quicker still. That way you are actually applying more throttle for a longer period of time which means you carry more speed at the exit.

It's also amazing how much feedback you actually get through the wheel (even in a car with PAS) if you relax your grip and use your fingertips to measure the resistance to turn (aka level of grip)

Chris

Yep again! I drive with a finger & thumb on the wheel unless it's cornering & then I'm often using a palm grip & thumb.

Some people need to ride a bike

I'd go further and recommend that everyone ride a moped on the road for at least 3 months before they can even get in a car - and then potential car drivers have to take an equivalent CBT for cars - basic handling skills, controls etc.

Stir that gear box! It's what it's there for :P

Yep! That's how I do it too. Even to the point of dropping it down a gear half way round a roundabout to accelerate cleanly off it. Voom! I've now got to the point of annoying Merc & Beemer drivers - they don't like to be overtaken by a bog standard Felly :lol: I hardly use the brakes at all either. Engine brake to a corner/bend/junction and you're in the right gear at the right speed to take it as fast as is humanly possible (within speed limits of course :P)

If you can change gear partway through a corner without destabilising the car, you're not really trying!

As for the brakes, I never use them either; they only slow you down!

I hardly use the brakes at all either. Engine brake to a corner/bend/junction and you're in the right gear at the right speed to take it as fast as is humanly possible (within speed limits of course :P)

If you hardly use the brakes, you are either wasting road space where you could be on the gas, or you need more power :P:rofl:

Chris

If you can change gear partway through a corner without destabilising the car, you're not really trying!

As for the brakes, I never use them either; they only slow you down!

I'm talking about changing gear on the apex of left to right on a roundabout whilst going straight ahead (bigish roundabout) outside lane, drive onto it in 3rd, drop to 2nd as the apex is reached & power on to exit.

To be honest, I've never been on a track, though I have been offroad a few times in my cars (Noooo, not ditch-testing - recently ).

If you hardly use the brakes, you are either wasting road space where you could be on the gas, or you need more power :P:rofl:

Chris

Yeah, I learned to drive at 17 in an HGVIII (passed in 68 hours) & engine braking, ddc & road position were taught as standard, so they've stuck. As for power, I get 36mpg tops from a bog 1.3SPi, so I think I use most of what's available I've only driven one "powerful" car and that was a Z3 for maybe half an hour round my city, all the rest have been in the same league as you see below...

Change gear on a corner == changing weight distribution....

If you keep on going with out an issue, you're not going fast enough :P

It's more that you're breaking drive when you're using the clutch (or passing through neutral if you try a clutchless shift), but agreed. If you can turn and shift (or even brake) without at least a twitch, you can go faster.

I'm talking about changing gear on the apex of left to right on a roundabout whilst going straight ahead (bigish roundabout) outside lane, drive onto it in 3rd, drop to 2nd as the apex is reached & power on to exit.

I've been mulling this over and I think I'd be doing it the other way round. Brake upto roundabout, grab second say and then power through it (straightlining if possible) and maybe grabbing third at the apex if it was a big roundabout and my steering was fixed at that point. If you imagine the braking zone is the section of road where you're off the gas - either braking or engine braking - your braking zone actually ends at the apex of the corner so you're kind of trail braking in.

One thing I get people to try as they approach a corner is to identify where it starts, ie where the paint markings start to bend. This is the point where you will begin steering, so working backwards you will have also selected the right gear and entry speed for the corner by this point. That way as you reach the start of the corner you can feed in power and start to steer - you'd be amazed at just how firmly you can accelerate round the corner and how little steering is required and also how stable the car feels. So, in theory, you should be able to get through the corner in the gear selected before the corner which means you're on the gas for the whole corner rather than just the bit after the apex.

Hopefully that makes some sense :rofl:

Chris

:iagree: Power can be used to stabilise handling, which is a reason for changing down on the way into a corner.

If you're not sure, find a corner where you've lots of room to catch a slide, but sufficient acuity to keep speeds legal, and a good sightline. Find a speed where the car feels nervy in a high gear. Now try taking the same corner 1 gear down, and I'm pretty sure the car will feel better balanced.

Change gear on a corner == changing weight distribution....

If you keep on going with out an issue, you're not going fast enough :P

If you can keep the BMW's Mercs & Porches off the roads & out of my way, maybe I could go a bit faster

It is interesting driving with 4 odd tyres though, limits of adhesion aren't always predictable :eek:

I'll get back to you on how I do actually corner once Gnome's back on the road coz taking this all from unrefreshed memory seems to be missing some of the finer details. It's mostly muscle memory too (as in I've never actually "thought" how I take a corner/bend, I do it).

Interesting conversation, thanks

Muscle memory is ok (I can't drive for toffee on most simulators cos I get no feedback I can interpret), but it's better to understand what the car is doing as well.

:iagree: Power can be used to stabilise handling, which is a reason for changing down on the way into a corner.

If you're not sure, find a corner where you've lots of room to catch a slide, but sufficient acuity to keep speeds legal, and a good sightline. Find a speed where the car feels nervy in a high gear. Now try taking the same corner 1 gear down, and I'm pretty sure the car will feel better balanced.

:iagree::+1: The idea of minimal braking is that one's foot is always on the accelerator and therefore the vehicle is under more control. The reason Minis were/are fun is because to recover from corner drift etc. one accelerates rather than brakes or foot off the gas & turn into the slide, same with any fwd car.

The point I'm making about roundabouts is that yes, slow down as little as possible, select the gear that keeps the engine in the power band best and drive (minimal accelerator, though under power) into the first left bit and around the first right bit and then once the car is changing direction again - as in neutral balance, drop down & accelerate through the rest of the manoevre (sp?) off the roundabout. It's obviously a lot of predictable direction changes in a short distance and has nothing rally to do with single bends.

Other bends are all really taken dependant upon how much speed once can attain before entering them, their severity, the camber etc and what then follows that bend. Keep the motor in the power band and change gear/brake when the car is balanced. Select the gear that's going to be somewhere in the bottom 3rd of the powerband before the apex (I think) and that's the drive out. If it's a series of bends, modulate the throttle/brakes dependent upon what's next. This is the beauty of track testing I spose; one knows exactly what's next and therefore muscle memory becomes involved & the overall behaviour of the car becomes predictable.

Of course, some bends that have to be taken in 3rd & at half throttle in a 200bhp Furby I could take flat out in top

Corner speed is the key to "fast" driving - not that I condone that sort of thing on public roads.

:iagree: again.

The point about the gear selection for a roundabout is that IME (with rare exceptions) the right gear for entry (assumes clear road) can be held until you're taking lock off on exit. If you're dropping a gear on the roundabout that suggests to me that your gear on entry and through the island apex is too high.

I have a habit of hassling or out-running nominally faster cats too (when in the mood).

There's also the effect of scrubbing off speed with changing direction to be taken into consideration. After two changes of direction, vehicle speed is significantly lower than at the entry point and whilst thrashing it all the way round in 2nd might work, the entry speed is too high for this to be effective. I find 3rd on the Felly is a bit short sometimes and maybe 2nd a bit long, maybe that's why...

Ah; I've never driven a manual car with poorly spaced ratios other than as a hire since the last time I drove one with a 4-speed box, maybe 20 years ago. Also, I find I can carry more speed through the island and exit than I'm normally prepared to carry through the entry.

I think the other think to look at is how we decide the entry speed. It's primarily decided by vision and then secondly by grip/traction (although this is generally less of an issue). For this reason, the entry speed is the lowest speed of the hazard and once we've assessed the hazard we can accelerate through it.

So for a roundabout we'll likely be expecting to stop (slowing down aiming to be stationary for the giveway line) until we reach our decision point where we know for certain if we need to stop, or if it's safe to go. Depending on the amount of vision, this decision point could be at the give way line itself or it could be significantly earlier. At the decision point, you'll be at the right speed to enter the hazard and can then select the appropriate gear to see you through (which should be one with plenty of revs left). You can then be back on the power to get you through the hazard.

In some hazards such as big roundabouts you might run out of revs but the up change can be timed such that it's done with the steering in a fixed position to maintain as much stability of the car as possible. If you're driving an auto, you'll be at the mercy of whatever the box decides unless you're running in tiptronic mode.

Chris

There is a big difference between driving on an unknown road by that i mean you might know the road to work ect but you dont know the limits and max entry speed to corners, and on a track where you get to know every corner and every inch of the track.

I couldn't agree more MilkyJohn. I think we're talking about drivers who actively enjoy driving rather than commuters & polishers Someone who enjoys driving will know all the crinkles on his commute to work too...

There is a big difference between driving on an unknown road by that i mean you might know the road to work ect but you dont know the limits and max entry speed to corners

I would argue that if you were reading the road, it wouldn't matter whether you knew it or not because the limit that you can corner at is defined by what you can see. In fact, I might say that if you knew the road, chances are you'd be going slower

Chris

I would argue that if you were reading the road, it wouldn't matter whether you knew it or not because the limit that you can corner at is defined by what you can see. In fact, I might say that if you knew the road, chances are you'd be going slower

Chris

Makes you wonder why Rally drivers use co-drivers and pace notes then really, doesn't it?