Makes you wonder why Rally drivers use co-drivers and pace notes then really, doesn't it?

Because they don't have to worry about being able to stop in the distance they can see since it is not an open road and there won't be other traffic on the road.

Rallying is very different to optimal driving on the road.

Because they don't have to worry about being able to stop in the distance they can see since it is not an open road and there won't be other traffic on the road.

There will still be hazards that aren't other cars though. Or are other vehicles all you need to worry about on the road?

My point is; knowing the road and how it unfolds will allow you to drive faster. Yes, perhaps not 'safer' in your roadcraft world, but faster; yes. The limit at which you can safely take a corner due to your field of vision and the limit at which you can actually drive through a corner are different.

Plus knowing what the road does after a blind corner will allow you to prepare for it in more time than having no idea and relying on your brains processing power between leaving the corner and starting on the next maneuver. Which will obviously help you. Think road position and forward thinking.

Simply saying that knowing and understanding the road you are driving on makes no difference to the speed at which you could drive it is simply wrong. Yes, track driving and rally are different to driving on the road. But it's still driving. On the 'road' you shouldn't be going over 60 on winding country lanes anyway. So what's the use of worrying about how fast you can get round a corner unless it's under 60mph?

The limit at which you can safely take a corner due to your field of vision and the limit at which you can actually drive through a corner are different.

I guess it depends on your priorities. For the road, the two limits are the same for me

Chris

No, the limits are different. But you do not exceed the 'safe' one

I'm not saying people should go out and tear around corners in an unsafe manner. But I do think that knowing a road, or series of roads gives you more information to work with your observation and therefore reduces the processing your brain has to do - making you safer and more in control than someone without that knowledge. Just as knowing how your car drives/reacts is an advantage as well.

There will still be hazards that aren't other cars though. Or are other vehicles all you need to worry about on the road?

My point is; knowing the road and how it unfolds will allow you to drive faster. Yes, perhaps not 'safer' in your roadcraft world, but faster; yes. The limit at which you can safely take a corner due to your field of vision and the limit at which you can actually drive through a corner are different.

Plus knowing what the road does after a blind corner will allow you to prepare for it in more time than having no idea and relying on your brains processing power

But if you can't see what is after the corner how do you know there isn't a tree down or another car or many other things. You don't so you have to drive what you can see.

Also you prepare on your aproach to a corner so you can accelerate out once you have reached the point where a corner is starting to unfold.

For example if i know a road i can come flying in knowing i can cut it and power out. However if the situation then changes mid corner, eg mud on the road etc I am then potentially stuffed and have to take corrective action and hope that it will be sufficent to allow me to get out rather than be a hole in a hedge etc.

After doing some driving with some of the HPC guys, I don't think you can ever truely "know" a road as the conditions change every day.

But I do think that knowing a road, or series of roads gives you more information to work with your observation and therefore reduces the processing your brain has to do - making you safer and more in control than someone without that knowledge.

So we've gone from faster to safer and more in control? What knowledge is giving you a bigger safety margin and making you more in control? Surely anything you "know" about the road is assumption based on what it was like last time you drove it so therefore that knowledge may well be out of date, or even dangerous now if things have changed, making you less safe and less in control?

Chris

I do like a good read

So we've gone from faster to safer and more in control?

I'd assume safer and more in control would equal a faster/smoother drive? Isn't that the point of having better control over your car when going quickly?

I'd rather have some, even out of date, knowledge of a situation than none. As with most things in life - going in with no information or knowledge is far worse than having some.

To drive quickly around a track you generally need to know it well. Rally drivers make pace notes to remind themselves what the road is like and what it does. You can drive faster with a knowledge of the road. To drive safer, just simply slow down. If you want to drive both fast and safely then, I feel, knowing the road gives you an advantage over not knowing it.

I'd assume safer and more in control would equal a faster/smoother drive?

To drive safer, just simply slow down.

Surely that's contradictory? :confused:

And what knowledge are you armed with if you "know" the road? Type of surface? Camber? Direction and severity of bends? Number of bends? How does the knowledge translate to varying conditions? Rain or even at night? How about running the road in reverse?

Comparing road driving to motorsport driving is an interesting comparison. How many rally drivers would rely exclusively on their pace notes if you told them there would be traffic coming towards them on the stage? Or perhaps the local horse riding club going for a saunter along the road? They can drive blindly around bends because they are in an artifical environment where the risks are minimal, however, how many times have we seen serious accidents as a result of a bad pace note? I don't know about you, but I also don't have the luxury of 4-point harnesses, a roll-cage, helmet and onsite medical crew at my disposal either

In road driving, the risks are not minimal so safety is the top priority and as a result maximum cornering speeds are limited by what you can see and then the amount of grip you have.

Chris

And what knowledge are you armed with if you "know" the road?

You know what is upcoming and how the road unfolds, which allows you to think ahead much further than what you are able to see. You can begin to anticipate hazards or potential hazards before you even see them? Surely that is an advantage over having no idea what is beyond the next bend?

EG if I know the area and have previous knowledge that beyond this blind bend is a driveway to a farm, I can expect that there may be a lot of Mud from the tractors across the road. With no knowledge I am potentially driving round a corner to find a hazard in the form of a slippery surface. Which one has an extra benefit? (yes, you should be driving at a speed where you have time to observe and react to the mud - but anticipating it is a large part of your awareness also)

Comparing road driving to motorsport driving is an interesting comparison. How many rally drivers would rely exclusively on their pace notes if you told them there would be traffic coming towards them on the stage? Or perhaps the local horse riding club going for a saunter along the road? They can drive blindly around bends because they are in an artifical environment where the risks are minimal, however, how many times have we seen serious accidents as a result of a bad pace note? I don't know about you, but I also don't have the luxury of 4-point harnesses, a roll-cage, helmet and onsite medical crew at my disposal either

I'm not saying that you should (ever) rely soley upon your knowledge of the road. You should always drive to what you can see. But previous knowledge of the road and area is extra information that can help you anticipate and navigate potential hazards - something you cannot do as effectively without knowledge of upcoming features/corners/etc. Comparing to motorsport driving; would Rally drivers be as quick on a stage without a navigator and pace notes? The risk is still (artificially, as you say) low. But they have no knowledge of the upcoming road. It may be a very different situation, but it's still plain to see that a knowledge of the road must help in some way?

In road driving, the risks are not minimal so safety is the top priority and as a result maximum cornering speeds are limited by what you can see and then the amount of grip you have.

Safe maximum cornering speeds are artificially limited, yes. If you wish to be unsafe or if your judgment of 'safe' is slightly less than someone else then surely it's possible to go faster? Not saying its a good idea, but the potential is there?

Perhaps I'm wrong? I doubt I'll win the argument(/discussion) but I'll still maintain that local knowledge of the area & roads will give you an advantage when trying to make pace over having no knowledge of the road ahead. Perhaps very little advantage, but still..?

You know what is upcoming and how the road unfolds, which allows you to think ahead much further than what you are able to see. You can begin to anticipate hazards or potential hazards before you even see them? Surely that is an advantage over having no idea what is beyond the next bend?

EG if I know the area and have previous knowledge that beyond this blind bend is a driveway to a farm, I can expect that there may be a lot of Mud from the tractors across the road. With no knowledge I am potentially driving round a corner to find a hazard in the form of a slippery surface. Which one has an extra benefit? (yes, you should be driving at a speed where you have time to observe and react to the mud - but anticipating it is a large part of your awareness also)

But I mentioned this earlier:

In fact, I might say that if you knew the road, chances are you'd be going slower

ie, if I know there is a hidden hazard it will *impede* my progress rather than make me faster because I will be slowing more on the approach because I know it's there. If I am driving the road fresh then I might be carrying more speed up until the point where I see the hazard and need to deal with it.

Don't get me wrong - I never said prior knowledge of a road was a bad thing - I just said that if you knew all the things to look out for along the way, chances are you're likely going to be travelling slower, rather than faster.....

Chris

ie, if I know there is a hidden hazard it will *impede* my progress rather than make me faster because I will be slowing more on the approach because I know it's there. If I am driving the road fresh then I might be carrying more speed up until the point where I see the hazard and need to deal with it.

Well, you'll still get to the end faster than the bloke who didn't expect it and spun off into the hedge?

How about Town driving? Knowing the roads means you can be in the right lane and the right position to change into the right lanes. With no knowledge you could be a lot slower in trying to change lanes and figure out where to be?

Perhaps I assumed that knowing what to look out for means you will likely have a smoother and easier rise which will result in you (overall) making more progress than someone who is dealing with the same condition and roads as yourself but having to concentrate and process more information due to their lack of knowledge of the area and upcoming features? Either way; I don't think I have the necessary ability to explain myself well enough, or I'm just wrong. So I'm leaving it there

Personally, I'd call that a tie So far...

I'd add that knowing how ones car handles under various conditions is also a determining factor in this. I know it takes me a good couple of months to tune myself into how it handles, what it's limits are, where all the controls are as compared to my last car, how big the gear change gate is, what is the optimal gear for accelerating at any particular speed is etc. I've never even driven a left hooker so I'm sure I'd be a hell of a lot slower on any road I know well as an example, especially if I've just got in it!

Given that one knows a road AND that the view is clear (I do wish they'd stop straightening out nice old twisty A roads!) from experience, I know that the more times I drive it, the easier it becomes to increase speed just a little bit until a safe maximum is reached. Road conditions then determine ones approach to driving specifically by how well one knows ones car, e.g 25% reduction in overall speed when it's raining because it handles like that. We do these things instinctively based upon previous experience.

At the beginning of this year, I took to driving to Cleethorpes 2 or 3 times a fortnight ( :P) and the AA time from where I live to there is 1 hour 47 mins, 1.51 the route I drove. The first time took me 1.40 and subsequently, I once made it in 1.25 and that's not because anyone straightened any roads or I knew my car any better...

I also used to ride the A604 from Colchester to the A1 every weekend and I knew every bend and every village, yet blow me, they were always in a different order to how I expected them every time! One series of bends had a habit of sometimes disappearing completely Basically, I knew how each bend worked, yet I didn't always know what was coming next even though I knew how to take that corner or whether there was a blind junction coming up as I was riding it because that particular hazard was incorpotated in the bend that I knew (I do hope that makes sense to this discussion )

Hazard anticipation on unknown roads is always down to the individual driver and their self known reaction speed as well as how well they know their vehicle. Make F1 drivers all swap cars 10 minutes before a race and the race would be very different and the first few laps would be significantly slower (especially if they were swapped for Nissan Micras :lol:). The comfort zone is applicable in this context. Driving an unknown car down an unknown road in the dark and it's raining... :thumbdwn:

A Rally co-drivers skills lay in observation, timing and the ability to keep their underpants clean whilst being thrown all over the countryside by someone who's controlling a missile that's being directed by them. The drivers skill is in controlling that missile, trusting what his co-driver tells him and hazard awareness, rather than anticipation other than the pace notes.

Where traffic density is higher, I can see how local knowledge would be more useful in deciding lanes, etc, although I'm not sure how much faster it would be compared to using the lane of least resistance and then playing the stupid tourist trying to filter in. I guess you could argue that sat nav gives you that knowledge without needing to "know" the road?

I'm also interested in the comment about driving unfamiliar cars. How long do you think it takes to get used to an unfamiliar car? Do you have to familiarise yourself with it on familiar roads and how do you go about making yourself familiar with it (is it conscious or does it just happen)?

Chris

I guess you could argue that sat nav gives you that knowledge without needing to "know" the road?

You got better SatNav than me then mate! TomTom is rather confusing in multiple close-knit multi-lane roundabouts.

Edit: And I'd assume that 'knowing' your car is the most important part. Especially if driving to 'the system'. As driving at a speed 'you know you can stop in the distance you can see' depends entirely on how quickly and how your car stops. So how it handles under heavy braking, different conditions (tyres etc. also) and other forces upon the car is almost the base of everything. How long it takes you to 'know' that would be a personal thing, I'd assume? And one that may constantly change throughout the cars life? Down to daily if you consider full/empty tank cold/warm tyres etc. etc.

Sat nav? Wassat?

The reason I asked about knowing the cars is I belong to a club where car swapping is a given so you have very little time to adjust to a car if you want to get the best out of it. Most cars which are "normal" are quite easy to adapt to and within 10 minutes one can get a feel for how it accelerates, where optimum gear changes are, and how it feels under cornering and braking but some of the more "specialised" cars tend to take a bit more accustoming to.

The reason I asked was because I was interested to see if people were consciously adapting or subconsciously letting the car tell them.

Chris

Sat nav? Wassat?

Yeah, wossat? :confused:

The reason I asked was because I was interested to see if people were consciously adapting or subconsciously letting the car tell them.

Chris

10 minutes? It's a good job indicator switches are all on the left, gear levers on the floor & handbrakes between the seats nowadays! Personally, I've only owned 2 & probably only driven 6 different cars in the past 10 years - and I rode a moped for 2 of those years and a pushbike for a couple too...

The couple of months I mention is to know how it will behave in most weather conditions, under different loads, where all the switches are without needing to look, how much clutch travel it has & biting points on hills - you know

Why do HGV drivers need an advanced test? Why do F1 etc. drivers spend weeks & weeks familiarising themselves with their car (as well as ironing out faults) and dislike using even the spare? Can you walk to the toilet in the dark in a strange house or do you use the nearest wardrobe?

It could be argued that the initial familiarisation is us adapting to the car and the follow up is us adapting the car to ourselves.

Tone

back in the day I'd take my car to a gravel car park or something to see what she could do and where she'd loose grip etc... haven't done that on my last three cars and kinda learned on the hop as it were.

I'd say it takes me about five days to get the feel for a new car - that doesn't include getting the bloody seating position right which I never manage as I've got abnormal sized legs and a short body - and never get the setting right somehow :P

After the sureness of my Honda in corners, the Fabia caused me to shy away from taking them too quickly in fear of rolling over!

The Octy on the other hand...

I find the familiarisation thing fascinating. A chap I was talking to reckoned that he'd driven so many different types of cars that he could now get into an unfamiliar car and within about 10 minutes be driving it at pace and to the highest standards. I've been lucky enough to passenger with him in a couple of cars and it certainly seems to be true.

I've found that I can hop between conventional cars pretty easily, but it takes me a lot longer to become familiar with classic Porsches where nothing seemed to be laid out logically (at least because controls weren't where I expected!) and the pedals were offset to the left. I guess there's also a bit more pressure there with the owner sat beside you!

My usual routine when getting into an unfamiliar car is to work round the controls to make sure I know where everything is, set the seat and the mirrors, and then set off and spend a few minutes getting a feel for the brakes (where they bite and how much travel and pressure is required) and getting a feel for full throttle acceleration to get used to the gears and overtaking potential a car has. Handling-wise (on the road at least where vision is a limiting factor) I think you get a feel for how the car behaves and so it's never really an issue.

Chris

My routine's similar to Chris's, except that I don't start on acceleration until I can change gear, and know what the brakes are like.

After the sureness of my Honda in corners, the Fabia caused me to shy away from taking them too quickly in fear of rolling over!

The Octy on the other hand...

...... the octy on the other hand it isnt an issue, because it has electronics to stop people from getting it badly wrong.

...... the octy on the other hand it isnt an issue, because it has electronics to stop people from getting it badly wrong.

which can also be switched "off"

Only once before it scared me

...... the octy on the other hand it isnt an issue, because it has electronics to stop people from getting it badly wrong.

No more than the fuzball has ASR and can be fitted with ESP...

Most Octys don't have ESP and still handle better from the factory :P:rofl:

which can also be switched "off"

Only once before it scared me

Nope... even when its off its not totally off.. :thumbdwn:

Only once before it scared me

That's a low scaredness threshhold :P I thought you were meant to be a trainee stig?!

Chris