Only ways I can think you might do that are with the handbrake or as follows:-

1) Wind into a long corner and get understeer.

2) Correct understeer by winding on more lock

3) Close throttle suddenly.

Sideways?! In a Focus? What were you doing in it! :eek:

Chris

I hear that lift-off oversteer can get them quite tail happy quite easily with the rear seats etc taken out

exactly.. a nice bit of liftoff oversteer!

makes the car turn nicely into the corners, feels neutral and light, and if you want you can take it a little further and get the tail out!

no handbrake required to get the back out on most fwd cars, just find a long medium corner, drive in slow and accelerate until the car just starts to understeer, then take your foot off the gas and around the back will come. Not a lot of use in most instances, but it can be used to help keep understeer at bay in a fwd car!

Ah that'll be why I never noticed it then - I don't do understeer

Chris

:iagree: - Once an FWD car is sliding it's as much a matter of luck as of skill as to whether or not you catch it.

disagree entirely....

its not just a matter of luck, it's all about knowing how your car responds at, and beyond the limit, and what to do to drive out of the slide!

If you don't know and never push the limits, you will never know what your car is and is not capable of doing!

If you don't know and never push the limits, you will never know what your car is and is not capable of doing!

But:

1. If you're testing the limits on the road you really shouldn't.

2. If you're testing the limits on a track there's quicker ways round corners then lift-off oversteer.

3. If you want to slide about on track for the sack of sliding, why not use a more suitable car?

:rubchin:

Rob.

Not testing limits on road

Of course there are faster ways round the corner... but its always good to take it over the limit so you can see where the limit actually is!

If i wanted to 'drift' i would not be talking about a fwd car!

Of course there are faster ways round the corner... but its always good to take it over the limit so you can see where the limit actually is!

Surely you can gather that by the feedback prior to the limit? That is, you can judge where it is without having to exceed it?

Otherwise surely the limit you're really likely to be testing is the ridigity of the metalwork as it bounces off a tyrewall?

Rob.

disagree entirely....

its not just a matter of luck, it's all about knowing how your car responds at, and beyond the limit, and what to do to drive out of the slide!

If you don't know and never push the limits, you will never know what your car is and is not capable of doing!

Not that the fact that I never said that it was just a matter of luck is going to stop you!

Unless you're working on a dedicated skid facility, even if you apply the correct inputs, if you're in the wrong place, you'll run out of road before you get straighened up.

If you don't know and never push the limits, you will never know what your car is and is not capable of doing!

I agree with this, although it also highlights what the driver is capable of doing which is perhaps the more important thing! I can highly recommend a day on Don Palmer's Limit Handling Course if you haven't already. It certainly made me appreciate how far off the car's limit I drive on the road and also the feedback the tyres and suspension are giving me which helps me to manage the available grip.

Hence why on the road, you can get any FWD car quickly and safely round a corner without understeering by feeling the grip available and making best use of it. Feeding the wheel in and turning at the start of the corner under acceleration allow you to maintain far higher levels of grip and hence speed through the corner, than barreling into a corner and then having to react to running out of grip to try and regain control with lots of "opposite lock" and lifting off. The latter seems more prevalent on the road and means that despite having less power and more weight, I can still get past a lot of faster machinery

Chris

On the road is a different matter!

and technically to get even close to the limit with most cars on public roads would be highly illegal.

on the road, smooth and controlled definatly

I think some of you think that i would drive round corners totaly on oposite lock (in a fwd car) i am not talking about that. I am saything that with careful use and in the right place a little slide from the back end can help a lot.

anyway... all well reasoned arguments put forwards, I think that people are different, driving styles are different, and we will have to agree to disagree on some of these matters!

i have found this thread very interesting having just found all these problems at trax,i was wondering if one of the better more knowledgable drivers on here would mind accompanying me on a track day in my car so maybe i could learn something and improve my track technique,as i know there are one or two very tidy drivers on here:D

I would have to say that I 'push' the limits of what the car can offer - but never to the point of opposite lock!! Infact I'm a little mistified as to how you can get in a position requiring opposite lock in - not just a FWD car - but a FWD car with an enormous cast iron weight infront of the front wheels!!!

The only moments I've had to cause a slight tightning of the sphincter are when front wheel grip gives up and I'm heading for undergrowth and lifting off and turning hard generally provides the loss of speed and resumption of grip required to avoid embarrassment. the only time that didn't work was when I hit ice on a left-hand bend and had the choice of an oncoming BMW or a field...I chose the field. And that was in a Toyota Avensis and I wasn't pressing on - infact I'd slowed right down as a woman had gone into the hedge coming the other way! There really is no way of 'teaching' black ice is there?

Also, as for the safety (or not) of testing limits - it makes a heck of a difference what tyres you have on. With the original Michelins on the front I was caught out several times by ever-so-slightly greasy roundabouts at average speeds. Since putting F1's and latterly T1-R's on I've not been caught out at all - and 'testing' is a relatively controlled and progressive experience. Almost enjoyable!

I can't comment about the Octy, beyond that mine actually oversteers slightly (true oversteer, not a rear wheel skid. Specifically meaning that the car takes a tighter line than commanded through the corner.)

I did once force a Citroen BX diesel into a rear wheel skid under controlled conditions though. Basically it went like this, I got it into an "I will go no faster posiiton" where the steering was having more or less no effect in allowing me to tighten the line, then lifted off suddenly. The weight transfer threw the back end out, but the resultant wiggle only lasted a couple of seconds between countersteering and slowing.

Haven't Fuby's got a knack of ending up on their roof if you push 'em too hard?

on occasion.....

i have found this thread very interesting having just found all these problems at trax,i was wondering if one of the better more knowledgable drivers on here would mind accompanying me on a track day in my car so maybe i could learn something and improve my track technique,as i know there are one or two very tidy drivers on here:D

Not a tidy driver myself , but I can highly recommend a day with either Don Palmer (Don Palmer is an expert coach specialising in car control and limit handling driving.) or Andy Walsh (http://www.carlimits.com/). The big thing you need to master is being able to feel what is happening between the tyre and the road and also how to maximise that available grip by hinting and smooth use of the controls.

One of the things I've seen people do (which I was guilty of myself) is chuck the car at the corner and let the tyres do the work. This technique is caused by turning the steering wheel too much and creating a significant and sudden slip angle at the front wheels. This means that there is not a large amount of available grip at that point and that's where the infamous understeer sets in. A better technique is to feed in steering for a corner as you need it which builds the slip angle gradually, maximises the grip and means you can be on the power through the corner and carry more speed. You'll also find you'll need significantly less steering for corners.

Chris

I've followed this thread with great interest...

Having my Octavia for the past two weeks has been really good fun... she leaves my fabia for dead in terms of handling, speed etc... but...

I miss my Fabia's quirkiness

Taking bends in the fabia there was always a hint of... "She's gonna go" whereas the Octy just seems to tackle them without even trying.

Like I said in my earlier post... I've done loads of track days and rallying, so I know something about car control... even if I can't explain it as eloquently as Chris does

There are three types of drivers:

1) Professional

2) Those who "know" they can drive

3) Those who "think" they can drive

Personally I know I can drive... I adjust my style to the conditions of the road and always give myself enough "grunt" to pull myself out of trouble if necessary by staying in a lower gear - it's not about going fast on a public road... it's maintaining control of the car.

A track is a different matter...

The problems I had with handling in the Fabia are now solved... I bought an Octy

There are three types of drivers:

1) Professional

2) Those who "know" they can drive

3) Those who "think" they can drive

Excellent summary - put me down in category 3)

Chris

In answer to the original comments around driving styles.

YES - there is a difference between Diesel & Petrol, having a Furby vRS, I find that to get the best out of the torque, is to just keep the turbo spinning, having regularly to drive hire cars ( Petrol ), it appears to need to 'Stir the gears' and keep the revs up to get the power.

I think that Chassis and suspoension setup is all personal preferance.

That's interesting, Steve. My own opinion is there is a difference between old diesels and petrols where your only option was to ride the torque, but these days all the PD/CR diesels seem to respond much better to using the full rev range. This means that petrol or diesel I tend to be a "stick stirrer"....

It's also interesting that the new breed of petrols seem to be driving more like modern diesels as well, with turbos that allow plenty of low down grunt to be developed whilst still maintaining a good useable rev range.

Chris

I've followed this thread with great interest...

Having my Octavia for the past two weeks has been really good fun... she leaves my fabia for dead in terms of handling, speed etc... but...

I miss my Fabia's quirkiness

Taking bends in the fabia there was always a hint of... "She's gonna go" whereas the Octy just seems to tackle them without even trying.

Like I said in my earlier post... I've done loads of track days and rallying, so I know something about car control... even if I can't explain it as eloquently as Chris does

There are three types of drivers:

1) Professional

2) Those who "know" they can drive

3) Those who "think" they can drive

Personally I know I can drive... I adjust my style to the conditions of the road and always give myself enough "grunt" to pull myself out of trouble if necessary by staying in a lower gear - it's not about going fast on a public road... it's maintaining control of the car.

A track is a different matter...

The problems I had with handling in the Fabia are now solved... I bought an Octy

you missed no 4 those who can't drive for ****,tho i'm not quite at that point trax taught me how little i actually know.

cheers for that chris it is somthing i will look at doing soon,i think i am allready reasonable when it comes to not throwing the car into the bends and at silverstone i tried to be smooth rather than fast which seemed to work well as i was the 3rd quickest skoda round the track and the two that were quicker than me were mk 1 octy's of bpm [254bhp] and leeboy [370+bhp] so i didn't do too badly and the skyline, evo,sti scoob and 200sx nissan i went past looked suprised but they really couldn't drive except in a straight line.

5) Those who know they can't drive well enough to be in (1) or (2), but are still better than the 80% of licence holders who're in (4). Well, that would be me then.

forcing Lift off overstear is a quick way to get to the apex of a corner but tends to scrub off mid corner speed causing a slower exit. Braking down to speed before corner then balancing car with throttle on turn in so there is no engine breaking to take away presciouse cornering friction then a gradual aplication of throttle from apex out is quickest.But to impress your mates force that lift off overstear it lots of fun lol

I drive by the feedback I get from the vehicle and the Octavia

gives better feedback than the Fabia, simple as that

I know how far I can push a car through the bends based on

previous experience and it has stood me in good stead for

many a year

CRASH!