JungleJames

Problem being, hybrids only suit a certain few people. For most, i suspect a diesel would be better. I would never get a hybrid. You are NOT a hypocrit for buying diesel. This whole thing has been blown massively out of proportion, and petrols arent clean either. I have a Mk3 Octy diesel. Do I feel guilty? No. One because they have not been implicated in this, and two because I understand petrols are just as dirty in their own right. The air quality in London will improve shortly. With the buses getting cleaner, and with the Great Western and MML getting electrified, there will be less diesel trains in London. A lot less. Cars need to be reduced in London full stop. Not just diesels, but petrols as well. The affect diesel cars has on Londons air quality is minimal.

If they can do this to diesels, there is a potential they can do it to petrols. Remember, it isnt just NOx to worry about. Perhaps the CO or hydrocarbon emissions from VW petrols dont comply. What do we call it- An assesment of potential risk

When i say it isnt as bad as the likes of china, I didnt mean we should just rest on our laurels. Not at all. We want to improve of course we do, hence the likes of SCR being a good thing in diesel. Likewise city buses becoming electric, or at least hybrids. All i was saying is i dont think London is dreadful. But perhaps when you see other places, it skews your perception of what is dreadful. Certainly if London is dreadful, then the likes of the chinese cities, well, there is no word to describe them. Even horrific wouldnt describe them.

Exactly. Its time to move on. Fine VW however much money they want, and onwards we go. Hopefully this time without any cheat devices

OK then, fair do's. Still not sure many drivers purchased their VW diesel because of their NOx emissions though. They buy diesels because of the reduction in fuel costs. Bet 99% couldnt care less if their engine ends up not complying with tier 5. Mainly because most wouldnt know what the NOx figure is of their car (ive only just looked mine up now after nearly 2yrs of ownership, and thats only because of all this talk). The majority of those claiming they have been duped by VW and want compensation, either dont realise what this cheat envolves, or have seen a good way of making some extra cash. People only see the MPG and CO2 figure, and when they claim their car is green, its because it uses very little fuel. Therefore when the term 'green' is banded about in this argument, people get confused and are unaware what is involved.

Euro 5 or 6 doesnt affect the VED band. The emissions that determine whether your car complies with the current Euro tiers (5, 6 etc), are CO, NOx, particulates, and hydrocarbons. The VED band is decided on CO2 figures. Stop start and regenerative braking were introduced to try and reduce CO2 figures. As Neily mentions, all Octy Mk3s (I think) have had stop start and regen from the start.

As far as I know, even the tier 5 Octys havent been implicated yet. Of course, that doesnt mean they wont be. Dont worry about it. Pick the car up, and be happy in the knowledge that as a diesel driver you are now killing thousands of people. Thats what I do

Yep, just flown back from HK. I wasnt actually staying there, but the continual haze you see over china was quite evident over HK. Feel sorry for HK really, because its the dirty/ noisy neighbour that causes all the problems.

You mentioned efficiency when going on about this little cheat. Efficiency is MPG.

My apologies. Never realised the Scout was tier 6 from the start. Also just checked the Skoda website, and whereas the section on the Superb mentions SCR on the relevant diesels, the Octy section doesnt mention SCR at all, so I assume no Octy diesels have SCR. As to the question as to how they can comply without SCR. I believe Honest John once mentioned something about 'Manifold in Head'. Ive no idea what that means, but seemingly it is another way of reducing NOx emissions.

As far as i know, all tier 6 VW diesels over 150ps use adblue. So I think yours must be tier 5. Interesting that the registration document reckons it complies with tier 6 though. Makes you wonder why they introduced adblue. Unless they took something else out, like EGR, and used adblue instead. Who knows. I believe yours is tier 5 though. I now prepare to be proved wrong!!

Or go out and start a diesel engine and kill a few more people. I always find that a good way of letting off steam

Anyway, the majority of vehicles sold now are tier 6, and I dont think they have been implicated in this. Your post highlights my point nicely. 'Without Reason'. You cant do something without reason. Well you can, but its just acting rashly, like Switzerland.

Well you are asking questions that would require me to go deeper than i intended with my answer. I gave it simply. Lets move forward, as I have no doubt the majority of manufacturers are complying happily. We'd know if the regulations werent feasible. The car lobby would be going mad and the regs would never have been introduced. I have no doubt they are feasible, and it can only be a good thing reducing things like NOx from diesels. So OK, let the authorities learn from their mistakes, and lets all move on. VW will be fined, and the regulators will learn, and we can all live in peace, driving cars that comply with emissions regs, and which, whilst not exactly clean, are a lot cleaner than they have been. Even those ultra clean diesels I may even let some of you drive dirty petrols

But have the Swiss proved these cars do not comply with Tier 5 regs, or that a cheating device was in use, and in reality do not comply? If so, then why havent all EU countries banned them? Perhaps (as everything else seems to suggest) it has not been proved the cars do not comply with EU tier 5 regs. Thats why the UK has not banned them. So why have Switzerland? Its called a band wagon. Of course if Switzerland have found something, then come out and tell us. We should be told these things. Certainly up until now, it is the UK and rest of the EU acting sensibly. Switzerland seem to be going OTT. Its a bit like me refusing to drive my car now, just in case. Its OTT. You like to go on about petrols NOx figures. However, petrols in the EU are still allowed to belch out more NOx than diesels in America. Its impossible to look at modern engines and work out which fuel is cleaner than the other, because they all have varying levels of barriers etc. All we know is that the engines apparently comply with the required regs applicable at the time of build, and ive no doubt the majority of them do, both petrol and diesel. Petrols arent clean, and neither are diesels. They are both dirty in their own right. Diesels naturally pump out more NOx and larger particulates, but petrols naturally pump out more CO2, CO and hydrocarbons. Its time to put this sorry saga behind us, and forget about it. Let the manufacturers produce engines that comply with current regulations, and allow drivers to choose the most suitable engine for them.

Very impressive. Whats it like to drive though? For example this supposed awesome 1ltr engine from Ford isnt actually as amazing as made out going by a lot of reports. Also, what are the NOx and hydrocarbon emissions like? Have they increased?

Yep, and only one thing has been shown so far. The cars do not comply with Americas stricter NOx regs. Why has Switzerland joined the band wagon? Its nearly as bad George Osbourne licking the feet of the chinese. Ooh, here you go, let me give you a few million quid to help you understand the Premier League a bit better. If it was down to me id be saying, "here you go, heres a nuclear bomb, drop it on yourselves and wipe your nation out". But that is waaaaaaaaay off topic!

But..... As petrols fuel economy improves, they start belching out increased hydrocarbons (what more?) and NOx. So you need to add extra barriers onto the cars to stop these harmful products reaching the atmosphere. That hurts fuel consumption, and makes petrols more complicated (you know, the same argument levied against diesels now). So you may as well leave petrols as they are, with the increased fuel consumption but slightly lower NOx emissions than diesels, and just be happy in the knowledge that both fuels are polluting in their own rights. Then allow people to choose the engine or power source that best suits them. Long distance drivers- diesel. Medium distance- Petrol/ diesel. Short city hops- Electric. Anything in between- Hybrid/ petrol. For those that want to give it a go- Gas. For those that cant drive- bicycle. For those that cant ride a bike- Walk. For those that are able- Run. The VED bands are changing, so the increased fuel consumption of petrols wont be penalised in that respect. You just use some extra fuel and stench out the atmosphere. All of us can be happy with our choices, and we all live happily ever after.

For one very simple reason. We have not proved the cars do not comply with EU regs. Switzerland are just getting on the band wagon. However as they havent proved anything, it is a rediculous length they have gone to. America knows the cars do not comply with their rules, so fine, no problem. But Switzerland are guessing, or just following the Americans willy nilly. We used to be accused of being American puppy dogs. That title now goes to Switzerland in this case. Unless of course Switzerland want to come out and show us that the cars in Europe are affected, and do not comply.

London dreadful? Crikey, I hate to think how you describe the likes of the chinese cities then. Even outside the cities. Take a trip from South Korea to China by sea, and see how the visibility drops and the sky takes on a very smoggy appearance about half way across. You dont see anything that bad in the UK, even travelling to London. OK London isnt good, but compared to some, its like pure fresh air.

Regarding your mentioning of American limits. Its interesting to note that a Tier 6 petrol in the EU is able to pump out more NOx than a new diesel currently can in the US, and still comply with EU regs. Petrols green? As for VED bands. Actually they are biased towards hybrids, which are able to provide massively false CO2 figures. Only difference to the VW NOx scandal, is they are legal figures. This then pushes people to buy hybrids when they are not suitable, and pushes companies to make company car drivers take hybrids. The end result is we burn more fuel, and pump out more CO2, CO, and hydrocarbons than necessary. As for a clean air tax on diesel? As mentioned above, until petrols have to emit less NOx than an American diesel this would be a tad unfair. Plus it would be completely ignoring all the other emissions.

The VWs are still more efficient (if thats what the figures show). That hasnt changed. Efficiency is MPG. This cheat does not affect MPG. Customers may well have assumed they were buying say a tier 5 engine that complied with NOx regulations, but next to no one will care if it turns out its really a tier 4 engine unless VW are made to do something to all these engines out there. Its exactly the same with any engine. Ask yourself this question. Your engine (petrol or diesel) turns out to be tier 4 compliant, when in fact it should have been tier 5. It still burns the same amount of fuel as always, and is still more efficient than the competition (bearing in mind all manufacturers have the same tricks for maximising MPG in the official tests, and this cheat has not been shown to affect MPG). Your tax band will not be changing. Are you worried? I bet very few will be worried, because it doesnt really affect them. It only worries VW who may be fined for flouting the regulations. That only changes if VW have to recall EU vehicles, which is probably unlikely. The Americans will, but highly unlikely anything will happen here, even if it is shown the engines didnt comply. Now lets say that this cheat did actually affect MPG (which hasnt been shown yet). If anything, reducing the affect of the emissions gubbins during everyday running will increase MPG. Now who cares? The answer? Even less people, because most will love the fact VW managed to get them a few extra MPG. So unless it was decided to change the vehicles tax band due to now apparently burning more fuel (which is even less likely than a recall (again assuming anything is proved)), next to nobody will care. It'll make next to no difference to diesel sales in the long run, because unless you believe diesels cannot comply with emissions regs (in which case every manufacturer must be doing the same as VW), then this matters little to diesels overall. The majority of diesels will comply with current emissions regs, and people will remain happy that they are getting a more efficient engine (ie burning less fuel).

No diesels falsely sit in a lower tax band. This problem doesnt affect CO2, it affects NOx. Therefore if it changes anything in Europe (and there is nothing yet to say it has done) it will just mean that VW introduced cars into the EU market that never actually complied with the current regs. Basically something along the lines of introducing a tier 4 compliant engine when it should be tier 5. VW will get fined, and that'll be the end of it. Nothing will happen to our cars, and very few customers will actually care (customers only care about the better MPG they are getting from the diesel), therefore resale values wont be affected in the long term. Oh, and diesels are still the environmental choice. The only reason they dont look it is because everyone is keeping on about NOx right now, and not looking at the overall picture. CO? Hydrocarbons? Yes diesels emit slightly more NOx than petrols, but its not as if petrols dont emit any NOx themselves. Petrols have long since been made to reduce NOx emissions to an acceptable level. Tier 6 now makes diesels bring them down to an acceptable level.

Noo. It was me that invented the device, and I definitely dont work for IS. I think the inventer should be commended, especially if its main reason was to navigate round the American emission regs. A country that goes round driving massive V12 powered trucks as everyday cars, and then brings out stricter NOx regulations than countries that actually do think about the environment. As others have said, its a bit hypocritical. Congrats VW. You've done us all proud.

Now now. Stop whispering such sweet words to me