Graham Butcher

No I don't dispute that at all. I always have said from the start, it is the way that the fire can be seen to behave in the video, that is what made ask "WHAT IF", because the way the fire looked was not what I would have expected, given my firemen experience and training. In the first interview on film, Andrew Hopkinson Chief Fire Officer said that early indications were that it is wasn't an electric car but he stumbled as he said that didn't at any other point in the interview. I was happy with that until I saw that leaked video from a mobile phone, and it occurred to me that he like me had his doubts but was convinced by the type of car, i.e., not being an instantly recognisable electric car, and hence why he said what he did. I also said that we need to wait to see the full investigation report, for the true verdict.

@wyx087 Once again making it up as you go, please read what is written, I went it over a few times to try and make sure it was clear, Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because car interior has pressure building up, despite you previously said EV battery fires vent sideways those are your words and I wrote after those was explaining that the car interior was also on fire. I still have not said anywhere that it was 100% a Li-on fire that caused the major fire, but once again you think I have. I'm beginning to understand why some other members have you on their blocked list 🙄

Not good enough repeating it twice then, thought you'd go for third attempt

But then the diesel Range Rover would not be working would it because the engine would have been destroyed by the mix igniting way too early. A bit like me many years when I had loads of petrol engined cars and when I had my first diesel, my rush one time to fill up, I fill with petrol, I just about drove a few hundreds yards before the car died completely and had to be towed to South Mimms AA service centre, I had much egg on my face trying explain myself.

Before I kick this into touch, allow me to demonstrate how the DVLA information for the registration number linked to this car at the centre of Luton fire can be misleading everyone into believing it to be a pure diesel and thus not questioning it any further. If the car in the photos and videos for arguments’ sake, was a Tesla then nobody would be questioning it being an electric car that caused the fire, because the car is easily identified, maybe not enough to identify the model, but the make would be clear, fair enough? Well what about this RR then, Auto Trader says its a RR diesel MHEV but DVLA say its a just a diesel, so they clearly list by what they consider to be the vehicles main motive power source. In the case of the Tesla, Auto Trader state an its EV (silly as we all know its an EV) and this time DVLA show it as an electric vehicle. Does this now settle things down again, as it clearly shows there is some element of doubt as to the actual cause of the fire? If those two videos taken on mobile phones had not been taken and shared, showing the fire's actually behaviour, then I would not be questioning it and looking at other possibilities. So please can we now all return to normal and just accept that at this stage of the process with the fire brigade just stating it was caused by a diesel car is not conclusive proof, which is exactly what I have been trying to point but it seems you all have accepted that it is 100% certain a diesel fire.

Well, the precise flash point can be anywhere between approx 60C to 90C depending on the grade, 52C might be for a specific type of road diesel, like diesel plus? The flashpoint for petrol is minus 43C, so many magnitudes worse.

Yes, well aware of the diesel heaters, some Superb's I think can be specified in certain countries with them, but the diesel needs to be vaporised and leaking diesel from a fuel tank for instance is not, and chucking a lit match into it, the match is more than likely going to be snuffed out by the diesel.

Doubt what I'm saying, check it out with diesel fitters and see how they respond. I have seen it done many times, and never once has a diesel engine caught fire while checking for a misfire.

So sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to convey. Yes I agree it is not something that you come across very often, but that equally does not mean that is not even remotely possible, does it?

Correct, you cannot use just NOX as nox generates extra oxygen while it is being burned, its a sort of supercharger.

🙄 Diesel only burns when it is in the engine cylinder under the massive compression that diesel engines have to have, in order to heat the air up to such a high temperature so that when the injector spays the fuel into the hot air, it combusts. If you have an engine misfire on a diesel engine, then the way mechanics detect which cylinder is misfiring, is to loosen the injector fuel pipe at each injector in turn and listen to see if the engine note changes. If it does change, then that cylinder is deemed OK and move onto the next one until there is one where the note does not change, that is the cylinder with the problem. Now you may not realise but when you loosen the injector pipe that a lot of diesel is sprayed under high pressure around the outside of the engine, but it doesn't catch fire. 😝

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because JLR made a different model of MHEV back in 2013. (full size Land Rover, size is vastly different to what's in the videos). So now you're an expert on car recognition from a small poor definition phone footage, shot from a distance and in a smoky atmosphere. And once again, is not what I was saying either. Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because car interior has pressure building up, despite you previously said EV battery fires vent sideways. Yes EV battery fires do vent sideways and in the front on video, this can be seen happening and if the car interior is already on fire then pressure in side the car would be building up, news flash hot air expands. I have seen plenty of ICE cars where the windows blow out, it happens in all fires, even house fires, get real. So once again you made the false connection that because there is smoke inside the car, that I'm claiming it is an EV? Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery under the seats on fire because nothing else in the cabin is flammable. Again, this is your interpretation, not mine, I refer you to the statement above.

Oh so clever, have you never heard of nitrous oxide (laughing gas) being used to boost an engines' performance then. Adding NoS nitrous oxide to boost power gains. (carref.com), Big Power With Nitrous—300-500hp at the touch of a button (dieselworldmag.com), In case you or anyone else is going to claim that it is illegal to use it on road going cars, then, you might want to read this from the experts before making such a claim? Are Wizards of NOS Nitrous Oxide Systems legal on road cars? (noswizard.com) Adrian Flux, one of the Briskoda recommended insurance companies, is also referenced in that link as one of the insurance companies helping with getting laughing gas injection on road cars legalised.

If that was petrol on the M6 motorway, the open lane would be closed as a single spark would ignite the petrol, just saying the obvious. That fast lane is still open because there is zero chance of the diesel catching fire. It is however extremely slippery.

@wyx087 You really love to put your own spin on whatever I say, you are beyond help, so once again, show me I said it must be an EV fire. All I said is that it looks like other EV fires. The operative word in play is "Looks". So in your mind then if someone said to you that you looked like David Beckham, that must mean that you ARE David Beckham 🤣🤣🤣. Get a grip will you?

Yes that is also true. 😉

Correct, also LPG has less energy than diesel. I think you have to warm the engine up as well before introducing the LPG? It is a popular choice with farmers, and I believe that Jeremy Clarkson and also Harry Metcalfe both have or have had Range Rovers running on LPG.

If you think politics has not affected the way news gets reported, then where have you been for the last 4 to 5 years? Head in sand time again then, or you incapable of reading and understanding the written word? I'm not justifying a Li-on fire at all, I'm looking at all possibilities, including CNG or LPG or just a simple Nitrous Oxide boost kit gone wrong. You really are demonstrating a lack of how diesel burns, just how difficult it is to set it on fire with a naked flame, a spark won't do it. Google it and learn something. Yes I do and even older cars, you have posted links before to a YouTube channel called Electric Classic Cars, do ever actually watch any of them? Watch this one, (411) Classic car electric conversion shop tour - YouTube and you will see many normal cars being converted to electric, even though there are many newer and better cars that already are electric. I can also give you many other links if you require more proof. I like cars of all types, petrol, diesel, CNG, LPG and electric, it's one of my hobbies and I have always been into cars even before I left school, so please don't insult my intelligence. So it's true, then you can't read. I'm a trained fireman of internal fire dept for English Electric Valve Company (now called Teledyne E2V) and Marconi, are you a trained fireman? And yes, diesel engines do have a high pressure fuel line, but only from the injector pump to the injectors and that pipe is made from thick walled steel and is therefore unlikely to break or leak. Allow me to reiterate I like cars of all types, petrol, diesel, CNG, LPG and electric, so your theory about me being biased is a load of BS. I admit that I don't like the fact that people are/were not being allowed a free choice of power plant, from 2035. I also don't like the fact that it will create a 2 tier system, i.e, those can home charge and those that cannot, so the two will have vastly different running costs, and I admit that I'm not convinced that overall, taking everything into account that are the savour of the planet. So once again you have demonstrated that you have not read or understood what I have been saying, instead you automatically take anything I say as being totally anti EV, when I'm clearly not. Yes the location of the small hybrid battery is under the floor, the front passenger floor on the left towards the engine bay. Do yourself a favour and revisit the link you posted from "X" and watch it again on a full sized screen and there is smoke coming from beneath the bonnet and also from the cars interior which suggests that pressure was building up inside the car forcing smoke out and also a sign that the windows were about to blow out. Also, this link that you supplied https://www.landrover.com/landrovermagazine/hybrid-evoque-so-what-mhev actually refers to the new MEHEV introduced in 2021, and according to the earlier "X" link you also supplied, the registration quoted was E10EFL which happens to a 2014 registered car so clearly not a 2021 MEHEV is it? Land Rover did make a Hybrid Range Rover in 2013, therefore it could in fact be a hybrid after all. I seem to recall that you have consistently denied that any EV's played a part in the fire on board the Freemantle Highway, even though photographic evidence shows that they were involved in the fire. Even to the point that when a YT channel announced after the ship reached port, that no EVs were in the fire. So when you posted on the 18th August this link https://cleantechnica.com/2023/08/17/a-ship-carrying-electric-cars-is-on-fire-we-must-run-and-tell-the-king/ and then this statement "So the uncontrollable fire on the ship had nothing to do with EV's.", nailing your colours to the mast of EVs were not part of the fire. How do you account for this (413) Fremantle Hwy: Mercedes EV battery burns ONE MONTH later | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube there also other videos showing similar. I said at the time that we would have to wait for the full report to be released to learn what actually did cause the fire. I also said then that I never stated EV's started the fire, but some did get burned in the fire and made it harder to put out, but you, of course, chose to ignore that as well. And for the avoidance of doubt about the type of fire that started the Luton fire, I'm not claiming it was this or that, just looking at possibilities that might account for the appearance of the fire coming from the Range Rover and like it not it is a fact that Range Rover did make a Diesel Hybrid, and they have had hybrids since 2013 and if that engine was running and witnesses heard it running and maybe that is why the Fireman said it was a diesel, but it does not mean it was a pure diesel. Neither does it rule it that it might have been a LPG either, because they can be fitted with a switch on the dashboard to switch from diesel to LPG and back again, equally it could have been converted to electric, we really do not know, none of us were at the time it all kicked off.

Taycan man tests a Tesla, thoughts?

OK, if anyone is interested what happened next with that £7,000 Tesla that appeared to be needing a new £17,000 high voltage pack, here is the answer:- enjoy.

There does seem to be a few fires occurring in multi-storey car parks of late, I discovered this one in Brooklyn and notice how fast the fire appeared to spread and the very heavy thick black smoke which is exactly the kind of smoke that you would normally expect from fires involving lots of plastics, rubber and diesel fuel as these do not burn efficiently and give loads of soot particles in the process, this was not visible on the mobile phone footage of the Range Rover when the fire started at Luton. The bangs that can be heard are unlikely to be fuel tanks exploding as there is no corresponding flash nor is there any visible flames as you would expect a exploding tank to be a massive fireball, what they are more to be are the windows being blown out and the tyres exploding. Plastic fuel tanks are more likely to droop and melt, allowing fuel to leak across the ground, metal tanks I believe would more likely to explode, but in practise it is more likely the rubber/plastic hose from the filler point to the tank will give way first and the fuel just burn off. What lessons can we learn from these fires, like the one at BoomTown Fair Festival near Winchester in Hampshire back in 2016 where cars were parked in a field, the Liverpool Arena multi-storey car park etc. Well first straight off the bat we need to be giving a far greater clearance between cars in all directions and covered car parks, the addition of a proper sprinkler system would also be an added benefit. It would also, I think, be an advantage to provide much more headroom as the low ceiling heights hold the heat down adding to the easy spreading of the fire. I usually go to the Royal Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford every year and there, like most events, they try to pack as many cars as they can in and at the end of the day, there always seems to plenty of space of left unused, so they could allow greater spacings. Another thing that they do, and it has always amazed me that fires haven't happened there yet, they park these cars on areas of the airfield where the grass has not been mown short. Now catalytic convertors and diesel particulate filters get incredibly hot, especially if the cars have been driven any great distance. Maybe that might have been a factor in the BoomTown festival fire, maybe burning grass helped it to spread? Also watch the second video of a car on fire on the roof of a hospital in the States, notice how long it took the fire dept to actually tackle the blaze. Lessons do need to be learnt, leaking petrol from the SUV can be seen on fire spreading across the roof, aided by the water being used, foam would have been better.

Oops, just watching the latest video from The Electric Viking where he is discussing the Luton Airport Fire and he used this footage of fire brigades tackling the fire WTF 😁

Well, for one thing, the fire brigade were not there when the online videos of the car on fire were taken, I think by their own admission when they ran through the time when the alarm call was received and then arriving at site was something like 10 minutes. Have you ever watched videos of any fire brigade arriving at a fire, they first of get the hoses etc out and get suited etc to deal with the issue. They also to get to I think it was the 3rd floor which had to be on foot, no fire engine could get in the car park due to the low ceiling height etc. So with that kind of delay it is doubtful that there would be any identifying marks on the car left. Even if the body shell was intact, there is no charge door as the hybrid does not plug in, so externally it looks like any other diesel/petrol Range Rover. If the number plate quoted on Twitter (X) was correct, and they punched that number into the DVLA (assuming someone gave them the plate details), then as you can see, it came back as a diesel, it also stated 2014 date of first registration, but it had a V5C issued in Dec 2022, So was it a change of ownership, or was a change of plate for personal reasons? Or indeed, were the plate details even correct, at this stage it is still to be confirmed. Now I have not ever even suggested a cover-up, I'm merely looking at the evidence based on what I could see in the videos that were taken on people phones and based on that and that alone, it tends to suggest the flames were being subjected to a pressure source, and it is known the li-on batteries do burn in that fashion and the location of the fire is right where such a battery would be located on a hybrid from that maker. Also, don't forget that the Citroen was a pure EV, but DVLA still show it on their records as being petrol. It is not a perfect world and mistakes do happen, so if the same thing is happening with RR then the fire brigade are just going on what the DVLA show it as being listed as, so not a cover-up at all.

Yes it might well have been a diesel car, but Range Rover did make a diesel hybrid car which had a 35KW electric motor and its battery was also, strangely enough, under the front passengers seat area, which is also where the fire seems to be coming from, so its still not crystal clear and further investigation will be required before the EV side of things can be 100% ruled out of contention. And the people who initially were trying to bash EV's by saying that was EV car on charge, are apparently out of luck as the chargers are supposed to in car park 1 and the hybrid RR is not a plug in either. Range Rover Sport Hybrid Review - GreenCarGuide.co.uk

No I don't if you really don't know then where the hell have you been hiding for the last 4 years? Politics is not what this forum is about.