Graham Butcher

Now while many of you will not to hear what this dude has to say about the Luton fire, I find it rather odd that he is like myself has grave reservations about diesel being the cause of this fire and seeing as this video has only just been placed on the internet today, and the fact that he is in Australia, but his thoughts are similar to mine with regard to the way that fire is burning as seen on the video that was shot from behind the car seems uncanny to me. But in the interests of trying to gain some insight into what may have caused this tragic incident, I suggest that it is worth a watch with an open mind and watch the clips and listen to what he is saying in-between some unnecessary padding in my view, he could have made the video shorter and got his message across. There is a lot of common-sense advice that the authorities worldwide should be heeding and preparing themselves and us for. Take my advice if you watch it, start from around 1:15 in to avoid listening to his sponsorship deal.

OK, it would appear that even with my son sitting in the rear of the car for around 10 minutes after the car had autolocked, (I still have not got the hang of leaving the keys in the car if people are staying in it), while I was in the vets with one of our cats, the alarm went off because he moved and then again when a little while later the sun came out, and he got rather warm, he opened the rear door by simply pulling on the lever in the normal fashion as I suspected it would. I think that it is like the MK2 model, to activate the deadbolts, there is a need to use the remote control and press the lock button, at which point the mirrors fold in.

I always hear you out, I don't block anyone on any forums, we all have a right to our views, and we can all learn from each other. Yes I accept that diesel and petrol cars can and do catch fire, I have even somewhere on here mentioned diesel buses catching fire, so I'm not in denial of the fact that this can and indeed does happen. However, there is something in the nature of the way that fire in the video is actually burning that rings alarm bells in my head, having been involved with diesel fires in the past. Yes it does seem very likely that the fuel tank is made from plastic, it looks way too complex for it to be anything else, but that said there are so many variations depending on exactly which model it and the precise age of the car as some did have metal tanks and the exact locations of the tanks have moved over time again depending on which model and age, but the tanks have always been by the rear wheels and the pump has been in the tank. So with the assumption that the engine is switched off, the fuel flow would also be off. If the tank was plastic and leaking, it drip beneath the tank, then way does neither of the videos (front or rear view) show any signs of fire around the rear wheels beneath the car if the fire that can be seen low down on the ground to the nearside of the car, is as has been suggested by others is liquid fuel on fire, then it would also be on fire at the point of where the leak hits the ground? If you check my post in the general automotive chat section, I made zero reference to the cause of the fire and indeed I would not have made any reference to it now, had it not been for the video which started those alarm bells and starting me asking questions about it. Now, please hear me out a bit longer...IF the car had been converted to add Nitrous Oxide, or LPG, or CNG, are you going to deny that these are under pressure and any leak in the engine compartment could be causing the flames to leap from the nearside of the car? Watch the video in slow motion, and you can clearly see the flames shoot out horizontally at times, just as EV batteries do in other videos. Just may be then you might understand that I'm not saying that it was EV battery that caused it, but it could be any one of those scenarios or a freak accident and if I have to eat humble pie in the end when the official report gets released, then I will do so gladly, I have never been afraid to admit that I can be wrong.

My premium went from £570 to £1,307, and I was with Better by Miles, and they were underwritten by Zurich, BBM have been brought out by Direct Line and have severed all connections with Zurich and doing their own underwriting, apparently. Zurich have also, I was told by someone there, have pulled out of car insurance all together as claims are spiralling out of control. So how can DL justify more than doubling my original premium when it came renewal time? I had other quotes for the same car and cover ranging from £1.2K to just over £4.3K, go figure.

Oh, now I see what they are on about, however, every time you create a voltage change, there is some power loss, local distribution networks work at lower voltage than the National Grid so to connect to it, the voltage will need to go through a transformation stage to reach the grid voltage and that will incur some power losses.

I wonder what mean about a connection to the grid, they mean it has be close to generation plant or wind farm which already has a connection that these solar farms can onto? There are loads of solar farms in East Anglia but no visible connection point that I'm aware of.

@@lee please do me a favour and go back and read what I actually said. I never said that it had been, but what if it had been and nobody informed the DVLA. Now I'm not a legal expert by any means, but I do believe that there is a world of différance between saying it is an EV and asking what if it had been converted. The first is a statement, the second is a question, and is that what I have been saying, I'm asking the questions what if, it was this or that etc as not many things in life are simple and straight forward as we like to think they are. The fireman making that statement could have been going on information that he was told, or he could have run that number plate that wyx087 posted, that allegedly came from someone on Twitter, E10EFL through the DVLA database and made the same possible mistake as you and others could be making and believing it to be correct. Have you checked on that Citroen number plate that is on the car in the video with the DVLA database? If so, how do you account for that? If you just saw that car on the road or in a car park, you would automatically think it still had a petrol engine but as that video shows, it doesn't or do you all have some sort of superpowers?🙄

Carry on poking fun at me for having an inquiring mind and looking for alternative scenarios. But what if the forensic investigation proves that the car was not quite as you all seem to think it is, will you all be eating a large slice of humble pie and apologising to me? Or is your signature line just a crude joke when you say "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid". I know that I'm not telling any lies, I'm looking at other possibilities and they are based on what I can see and using my knowledge and experience, what are you using?

Once again, twisting what I said and totalling ignoring what I said. You are also ignoring the possibility of a fuel leak being subjected to high pressure of nitrous oxide, or to the possibility of the car having been converted to run on LPG like many Range Rovers have, don't believe me, ask Google and find out. How many times do I have to say it, I never said it was an EV, just that the fire on the video looked like that from an EV. I don't actually know if the car was an EV convert, any more than you don't know that it wasn't. All I have said is that it is possible, and I have given you had facts that despite the DVLA database showing that it was a diesel, that might not be the case, read the database result for that Citroen which shows it as a petrol but it is so clearly not. If you really cannot accept that then there is no point in continuing the discussion is there?

Haha, how about Frozen by Madonna then, here are the lyrics, simply change the words "Heart" for the word "mind" Frozen Madonna You only see what your eyes want to see How can life be what you want it to be? You're frozen When your heart's not open You're so consumed with how much you get You waste your time with hate and regret You're broken When your heart's not open Mmm mmm mmm If I could melt your heart Mmm mmm mmm We'd never be apart Mmm mmm mmm Give yourself to me Mmm mmm mmm You hold the key Now there's no point in placing the blame And you should know I suffer the same If I lose you My heart will be broken Love is a bird, she needs to fly Let all the hurt inside of you die You're frozen When your heart's not open Mmm mmm mmm If I could melt your heart Mmm mmm mmm We'd never be apart Mmm mmm mmm Give yourself to me Mmm mmm mmm You hold the key You only see what your eyes want to see How can life be what you want it to be? You're frozen When your heart's not open Mmm mmm mmm If I could melt your heart Mmm mmm mmm We'd never be apart Mmm mmm mmm Give yourself to me Mmm mmm mmm You hold the key If I could melt your heart Mmm mmm mmm We'd never be apart Mmm mmm mmm Give yourself to me Mmm mmm mmm You hold the key If I could melt your heart Songwriters: Madonna Ciccone, Patrick Leonard. For non-commercial use only.

Or they could just increase the number of chargers at each site?

I'm not trying to make a point in either for diesel or EV, I just don't know and neither does anyone, just thinking outside the box and using my observations, while still keeping an open mind on it. Like I have consistently said, it will all come out in due course, either way, or are you going to say that I have never said that as well? I suppose you all think I have forged the DVLA report for the Citroen, just go online and test it out for yourself Check if a vehicle is taxed - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) and you will see it is true. So if that is true, why can't it be true for the Range Rover as well, please explain why it is not a possibility?

The side walls are none existent, it is just an open steel cage, much the same as most MSCPs.

What's up then, can't bear to think that the cause might not be as clear-cut as you thought?

OK maybe this example will show you that you cannot rely on the fact because the DVLA or witnesses are saying it was 2014 diesel Range Rover, that it is what it is. You all have so eagerly jumped to the conclusion that is all the proof that is required for it not to an EV car. OK, let me show this link then to a Citroen DS classic car that has been converted to a full-blown EV and apart from the owner has made up a special badge to show is an electric car, nobody would ever know, it even has retained the original gearbox and the interior and exterior has not changed at all, even the charging socket has been neatly hidden behind the original petrol flap and even beneath the original petrol cap. Like I said, it always pays to keep an open mind on things unless you actually 100% know for sure and unless you know the owner, then you don't know for sure, do you? Guess what, I have even checked with the DVLA and it is showing on their database as being PETROL driven as this screen print shows. What it does show however is that although the car was made in 1972, it was registered again in 2002 but that might just mean that was a restoration or imported into the UK. Hopefully, this will put an end to all the know-it-alls who have such closed minds that they just cannot even consider any other possibility. Geez, is it any wonder the UK is in the state it is if people are so willing to believe anything rather than ask a few questions and think for themselves? Try stepping outside your box for a while and spend sometime looking back into the box from a different perspective and then things might not look so black and white, but more of a grey colour.

Yes it might well be just diesel burning on the ground, but as a person who used to have to go on nearly 100 diesel powered buses, early on a cold morning with piece of rag soaked in diesel attached to the end of a long handle, with the rag burning and shove that burning into the air intake on Gardner 5 and 6 cylinder diesels engines to get them started in order to warm them up before the crews came into work and diesel is very hard to ignite in the first instance and when it does, tends to burn with low intensity, a more yellowish flame with black smoke. That videos has a different appearance. AS I have said all the way through this thread, I'm only commenting on the fire itself, it is you lot who are not reading what I'm writing and thus convincing your selves of something that is not factual.

Toot has already posted this link as well.

Please show me where I claim that the Range Rover was in fact a EV, here is a spoiler for you, I have never said that it was. But equally, how can you be so sure that it has not been converted? There are many companies out there who specialise in doing such conversions, including the one who you love to splash links to because he has a YT channel. What I said was that the fire as shown in the front on video has all the hallmarks of an EV with its jet of fire being propelled from the left side of the vehicle just as in this video of a confirmed EV as it was on charge at the time. Maybe there might be more videos emerging in due course of the Luton fire that will help to clear up the issue Compare that one, once the flames appear to the video that you actually linked, can you not see any resemblance at all? Andy on X: "@ItsBillN @petersharding Front View and plate E10 EFL https://t.co/DooHo7P13m" / X (twitter.com)

Oh such a closed mind.

I did not say the car, but the fire had the hallmarks of a EV battery fire. I cannot prove this either way and I did also say that the truth will be learned in time. Yes the car is or started life as a diesel. Can you not see from the fire is shooting out sideways to the left of the car looks very similar to the many online videos of confirmed EV fires where the flames shoot out to the side like a flamethrower? If it was burning fuel on the ground, then the direction of the flames would normally be more upright, would they not, that is what I have always seen when fuel on the ground is on fire, and I used to be a member of the English Electric Valve and Marconi Fire Force in Chelmsford so have had training in fires and types of fires and how to gain some idea of the best way to tackle a fire much of which depends on what is burning and water is the last thing you put on an oil fire. Plastic fuel tanks, or indeed metal ones in any front-engined car are located at the rear of vehicles and are normally between the rear wheel wells for maximum protection in a RTA, and in the video the fire is well forward of that location and has a flamethrower appearance to the left. Take another look at the video on X and judge for yourself. There is a reason why I did not post my initial report in the truth about EV cars thread because this clearly is not a confirmed EV, it is currently at diesel as far as anyone knows, only the owner knows for sure. Now can we please stop trying to shift blame and point scoring, my comments were related purely to the appearance of the fire itself, not the car. People do carry out modifications to their cars such as Nitrous Oxide injection etc and that might have been done here, in which case, while the gas is not flammable, it does indeed provide a massive amount of extra oxygen to fires to make then burn fiercer and hotter, and if that conversion had been done and leaked under pressure it could perhaps create what the video shows. I'm keeping an open mind on the cause of the fire, apart from as the video shows, it did start with the Range Rover, which was being driven, and I have lots of experience of diesel engines of all sizes and diesel fires are rare, and I have never seen a pure diesel fire exhibit such flame throwing capability without some other force being applied to it, which is not normally found in standard cars. Are Wizards of NOS Nitrous Oxide Systems legal on road cars? (noswizard.com) Is Nitrous Oxide Flammable? Yes and No… (firefighterinsider.com)

No straw clutching or trying to shift the blame, just saying it is a possibility, and that the truth will be uncovered in the fullness of time. Can you claim 100% that it is not a possibility then?

Yes, thanks for this link to the video, it does indeed confirm my thoughts were indeed correct, it was not parked but being driven at the time. From the rearview the lights were seen to be on but in this front view, they are off, possibly because the wiring had been burnt though? Now DVLA show this a diesel registered 2014 and is a red Land Rover (Range Rover), and the way the fire is emanating from the lower side of the car and shooting outwards is not typical of a diesel fire, which tends to smoke before it actually starts to burn, hence why they don't use spark plugs in diesel engines, it needs very high temperatures before it burn and hence the very high compression of diesel engine in order to ignite the fuel. It does appear to have the hallmarks of an EV type in the video, but I may be wrong. I just wonder if it has been converted either into a full-blown EV by someone like Electric Classic Cars or one of the many other conversion companies or maybe a DIY conversion, and nobody had informed the DVLA? No doubt in the fullness of time the truth will emerge one way or the other. The only thing we can say with 100% confidence is that the fire and all the damage and suffering caused by it is regrettable and that had the exposed steel framework of the car park been protected by a concrete jacket then the damage might not have been as bad or collapsed.

I also looked at Range Rover and discovered that they did do diesel MHEV model and so perhaps there might have been a diesel PHEV before that maybe? Who knows? NEW 48V MILD HYBRID DIESEL JOINS PLUG-IN ELECTRIC RANGE ROVER | Land Rover Media Newsroom

Got to laugh at the report about the Liverpool fire being hot enough to melt aluminium, it has a far lower melting point than steel 🙄. Be that is it may, the Luton car park was all exposed steel beams and therefore lacked the extra protection against fire like the report from the "New Civil Engineer" states, this extract from that report certainly is very true for the Luton fire. "The Echo Arena MSCP in Liverpool demonstrated that a 15-minute fire-resistance rating may be totally inadequate for exposed steel framed MSCP structures occupied by modern vehicles. However, the reporter claims that designers and clients are refusing to change their methods until the regulations change. “There is little doubt, says the reporter, that the Echo Arena car park may have collapsed if it had been constructed to current standards in unprotected structural steelwork,” the report adds."

I really can't see how they can at this stage confidently state that the fire was started by the diesel car, because they fire dept did not arrive at scene for 10 minutes according their own timetable of events, by which time it had already spread.