Thoughts on why we have a culture of benefits in the UK

[cjb]

But the point is:

1. If everyone looks after their own, things take care of themselves naturally as a consequence.

Not everyone can. But those that can, should.

[cjb]

I work at Tesco on a Sunday, stacking shelves to fund my stupid car habit. I have to say though, it is a little embarassing.

I fail to see why.

[cjb]

Thats because the north is full of lower class people who'd rather laden themselves with Elizabeth Duke bling and the latest flashy mobile than improve their class standing.

These are generally the sort of people who sit around complaining about everything and not wanting to actually do anything about improving their situation.

They complain about the rising cost of gas but they can still afford a Nokia N95, 4 soverign rings from H Samuel and 300 fags per month.

Well, there's another issue, but yes, those people exist. Not just in the north though.

[cjb]

It's not saying I would choose not to have a job if only McDonalds were hiring. Maybe that's the difference.

I'd say so.

[cjb]

On a similar note thank **** for Watford Gap

You're joking right? Thats a really grim motorway services.

[auroan]

With out sounding like a parrot, I have to totally agree with daiking on all of his points.

[cheezemonkhai]

Feel free to clean up as keeping it On Topic would be kinda handy.

[Octygone]

Does anyone know how these "dole for life" people get so much in benefits ....When I was made redundant earlier this year all I could get was £56 a week .......I do know you have to live in a rented house and have loads of kids to get the full amount ...but I would love to see a list of "if you do this you will get this"

['daiking']

Does anyone know how these "dole for life" people get so much in benefits ....When I was made redundant earlier this year all I could get was £56 a week .......I do know you have to live in a rented house and have loads of kids to get the full amount ...but I would love to see a list of "if you do this you will get this"

I played around on the website www.entitledto.co.uk

for a couple (22F & 27M) with 3 kids (1 under 1 yr of age) it came out with a figure of £19.6K

also consider that that is not taxed. A worker would need to earn £24K ish to match that.

nice work if you can get it

[Lady Elanore]

One of my best friends has never done a proper days work in her life (she’s 35) and I have gone on at her for years to get a job and earn some self respect. But she plays the system and so does most of her family. She couldn’t make the income she receives from the state with a job she reckons. She lives in a 2 bed maisonette and has a big back projection telly, SKY, DVD etc. her kitchen has just been redone for her and now contains even a dishwasher!!!! I hope she feels proud that my taxes are being put to such good use. Must admit it strains the friendship on occasion.

Ken Barlow was an inspiration, at least until he met his old Uni friends and suddenly decided that working in a café was beneath him.

[Sporky McGuffin]

Either your rich and well to do enough to be upper class, or you work, you work then you are working class like it or lump it, why bother with the pretentious title of middle class, Whom I think you will find are traditionally despised by both the upper and working classes alike. (the upper classes for being brown nosed a-holes and the working class for trying to be something they aren't)

How enormously snobbish.

[cjb]

Must admit it strains the friendship on occasion.

Bloody hell, that must be hard work.

[cheezemonkhai]

Thanks to whoever fixed my awful thread typo/spello :$

[pixi]

And a big thanks to RobMawer (rhymes with drawer) for the long awaited pic

[Royston]

The OP neglects to include the most socially important, most widespread and most talked about class - The Underclass.

The press is awash with stories about these fine folk, we are currently enjoying the effects of third and fourth generation Underclass who have come from a long line of Skivers and Ne'erdo wells who have never worked and who's parents' have never worked.

They don't have any aspirations to move up to the next level, and don't view themselves as being the next class up. they know what they are and are happy to wallow in it. They are entrenched in consumerism and worship at the Altar of Argos, Poundland, and Empire Stores catalogue.

If they can't get the credit to buy the tat that they so desire, then they seek it out from the shoplifters at the local club or pub, or buy direct fro the burglars on the estate. They live their lives in abject poverty with unpaid credit, black marks against their names and loan sharks breathing down their necks, yet still can afford those 300 fags a week, the slab of Stella at the weekend, and the countless boxes of Happy Meals for the kids.

Then they breed and they breed for more kids = more cash! Rubbing their hands in glee as they embrace the cornerstones of parenting - Nikelodeon, Playstation, and McDonalds. And the cycle continues with ever more damaged sugar filled aggresive kids who's only social convention learned from their parents is a string of bellowed swearwords physically attacking anything that prevents them from getting their own way.

Drink and Drugs become de rigeur to try and escape their hideous lives and the only thing the aspire to be is the flush drug dealer, or the local violent hardman, or the baby factory rolling in child credit and p1ssing their lives away.

[swedishskoda]

OMG that was a severe bashing... OK, the Stella and McD-consuming underclass (or the ones that Marx called the "Lumpenproletariat) exists and catches the eye - but I think that the great problem with today's welfare society lies elsewhere.

I agree with most of the description in Cheezemonkhai's first post, but I also agree with ap0gee when he defends the welfare state as an important safety net and a necessary part of civilised society.

Problem is that the idea of welfare society rests on the concept of solidarity. And solidarity means some kind of responsibility towards the collective or society. As the Swedish Seamen's Union motto put it: Do your duty - claim your rights. The idea that responsibility towards others follow from rights was not questioned one or two generations ago - except among the upper classes and the "Lumpenproletariat". But both the working classes and the middle classes accepted that free lunches didn't exist - If you have one, someone else is paying.

The feeling of responsibility that follows from that insight tends to wither away (and yes, Maggie Bl00dy T and her likes deserve part of the blame for this).

How to counterbalance this is a difficult question. Probably impossible to go back to the 50's or 60's. We need an updated substitute for the morals of our parents/grandparents. For a left-winger like myself it is a great tragedy that today's Labour parties (in UK or Sweden or elsewhere) don't have a clue about where to find this, and, worse, don't even seem to care about it :thumbdwn:

[soviet]

This is probably going to go a bit mini rant, so if the mods think it's better in OT feel free to move it.

Anyway, I was having a think the other night while out at some peoples houses and have the following thoughts on why we have a large number of perfectly able bodied people unwilling to work and happy to claim a living from those who do work.

1) Maggi's changes and those of successive governments helped make everyone out for number one only and put in a culture of "you're nothing if you're not rich".

This has lead to people having to have everything even if they can't afford it and being uphappy unless they have it all.

No longer is it a case of start small and buy things when you can afford them, you must have it all and have it now.

2) The middle classes.

You can go at me on this one if you like, but the upper class know that in order for them to be able to do sweet FA and enjoy their money they need to pay a number of "workers" to do their work for them.

Some in the middle classes look down on the working classes as if they are scum and not worthy of existing. They make out that doing these sort of jobs make a person a nothing and seem to fail to realise that every cog in a geared system is important and without the working classes the country would fall apart in next to no time.

Now 2 makes me realise that because of the aspirations set out by 1 combined with the thought now polluting peoples minds that being working class is lower than low we are in this situation.

People don't want to be working class and think they should have everything.

People don't believe they should be doing low paid manual labour and factory jobs because they are better than that.

This means that you get what we are now seeing, where we are getting people in from the rest of the EU to come and pick our fruit and veg at £7 an hour and the UK workers think this is below them.

The fact that they now consider themselves "middle class" means that they shouldn't have to work in this way to obtain the goods they "need" and so if they are not handed a job paying enough to do this on a plate why work.

So really, the problem boils down to personal greed being promoted as a good thing, and the middle classes treating the working classes and others as scum.

If all the people who could work, but are instead sat on their **** had a sense of worth and achievement from doing the jobs they may be best suited to, eg manual, then maybe they would have a desire to actually get a job and say "I work at the farm/factory and I enjoy my job".

Sure they nay not be loaded, but I bet if they had enough money to get what they needed and some personal feeling that what they did was essential to the country then we wouldn't be in the same mess we now are.

Oh and those that were still too lazy, could be used to generate electric.

Discuss

Hi Cheezy one,

Good old soviet here. Are you the short one with flat cap here in this sketch. As you are enjoying the class rant here: -

The Frost Report The Class Sketch - YouTube.com

I will need to read the cheezy ones 'war and peace' to find the answer here.

Soviet:)

[soviet]

Hi Cheezy one,

This is probably going to go a bit mini rant, so if the mods think it's better in OT feel free to move it.

Anyway, I was having a think the other night while out at some peoples houses and have the following thoughts on why we have a large number of perfectly able bodied people unwilling to work and happy to claim a living from those who do work.

Hi Cheezy one, do not forget here the ones that are the able bodied but are rich and are going to the races everyday here. Where we all put at this planet to work our short lives away. Who has created this system here, as animals are not working unless being made the slave by man. Mans intellect has turned him in to the wage slave. I am now the retired one, but I have always been working for the system here, and elsewhere also, and so, until someone is thinking about the bigger picture and outside of the box, things will not change very fast here. I did not which to work all the young and best years of my life here, but like many more the system has made me the wage slave, whether I am liking this or not. We are all the slaves of a system, that we are powerless to change, and none is looking deep enough to do this. There is a word here that is being called dialectics, which means that sometime something will change I think, but people here seem (and the other countries) seem to be in no hurry to see the different way.

1) Maggi's changes and those of successive governments helped make everyone out for number one only and put in a culture of "you're nothing if you're not rich".

This has lead to people having to have everything even if they can't afford it and being unhappy unless they have it all.

No longer is it a case of start small and buy things when you can afford them, you must have it all and have it now.

I do not like all of politicians including the Margaret Thatcher, but I do not recall what you are saying that she was meaning that 'you do not matter here if you are not rich', and I think that I recall, she said here, 'There is no such a thing as society'.

Which I think is meaning that it is everyone for themselves, as per scientist Darwin, survival of the fittest ones. But I am thinking that man is more intelligent than the animal species, and so the problems are complex here and cannot be summed up and made in this way.

2) The middle classes.

You can go at me on this one if you like, but the upper class know that in order for them to be able to do sweet FA and enjoy their money they need to pay a number of "workers" to do their work for them.

It has always been this way Cheezy one, but I am never agreeing that this is right of course, but by mans nature he will always be the greedy one, and some are prepared to take all of the cake, and be leaving just the crumbs for the others.

Some in the middle classes look down on the working classes as if they are scum and not worthy of existing. They make out that doing these sort of jobs make a person a nothing and seem to fail to realise that every cog in a geared system is important and without the working classes the country would fall apart in next to no time.

Yes but it will be the 'horses for courses' as what is happening when the central heating is breaking down, and the middle class person does not have knowledge to fix problem, and so he needs the worker.

The middle class person may not have knowledge here to put the electrical plug top on correctly. So by way of knowledge here, the worker is superior to the middle class one I think.

Now 2 makes me realise that because of the aspirations set out by 1 combined with the thought now polluting peoples minds that being working class is lower than low we are in this situation.

AS I am saying before we have all been brainwashed here, to conform to the established system for the rest of our days of existence, and this will continue here until enough people like you cheezy one, are prepared to question the way of things here. (all countries I am meaning)

People don't want to be working class and think they should have everything.

Sadly I think that we are all being conditioned here to think this way as, we are being bombarded with the advertising which is the part of capitalist system, and to be the higher class and going up will mean that one will have more things. But happiness, and knowledge is different.

I do not need all the luxury things, but only the bare things for making life existence comfortable for me. I say that I am rich in the different way by the knowledge that I am accumulating, and this is the one thing here that the system cannot take away.

People don't believe they should be doing low paid manual labour and factory jobs because they are better than that.

I see this especially in GB, as pupils that are leaving school, are told that the more qualifications that they are amassing here is the road to richness, and they will not end up doing the less desirable work in factory.

I am the member of I professional Engineering Society here, and I am always being told that school leavers are not interested in engineering or technology, as they are being conditioned this way at the school. Even the maths and science subjects are not seen as the important ones now, i think. The engineer in GB is always being seen as the oily rag one, as sadly this is not going to change here.

This means that you get what we are now seeing, where we are getting people in from the rest of the EU to come and pick our fruit and veg at £7 an hour and the UK workers think this is below them.

I think this is because of the way that Governments in EU are making it, as the people from Continent are sending this money home now, which I have done in past times for my mothers family. Would you force GB people to do these things that they are not wanting, and would you do this also Cheezy one?

The fact that they now consider themselves "middle class" means that they shouldn't have to work in this way to obtain the goods they "need" and so if they are not handed a job paying enough to do this on a plate why work.

I know that many people do the temporary work for all of their days here, but with no pension. I prefer to not consider the GB class system that they are talking about in media on TV, but I have done my work here, and enjoyed to use the knowledge that I have worked hard to gain, to be useful for the society here. I am the happy one with what I now have, but do not chase for other things that they are telling me that I need, as a capitalist. I will be the one deciding what I will need.

So really, the problem boils down to personal greed being promoted as a good thing, and the middle classes treating the working classes and others as scum.

I do not like the politics or the politicians here, as you are knowing, but big business is now running all the Parties that we are voting for here, and there is no differences between them, and so nothing will change, and i will not do the the vote. Yes we are being conditioned to be the greedy ones always.

If all the people who could work, but are instead sat on their **** had a sense of worth and achievement from doing the jobs they may be best suited to, eg manual, then maybe they would have a desire to actually get a job and say "I work at the farm/factory and I enjoy my job".

I worked in GB for 34 years, and I was pleased that I had the skills here that were appreciated, as I was seeing what they needed. I enjoyed my work, and only was taking the early retirement because of my back problem, and the Americans that they were bringing in to management, and making the changes all of the time. I took release money from UK company any the extra for my pension. I think now that I have earned the right to sit on ****, and have money for this, but I may now go for further education/teaching maybe. I think that there is the difference between enjoying a job here, and just the job that is boring and is being done for the money reward.

Sure they nay not be loaded, but I bet if they had enough money to get what they needed and some personal feeling that what they did was essential to the country then we wouldn't be in the same mess we now are.

We are all the victims here, of the international capitalist system which is now the winner I think, but has as many faults as the alternative one that is gone from USSR, and is going from the China slowly.

It is the system that will always be calling the tune here, and until people are thinking outside of the box like you, cheezy one, then nothing will be changing here fast.

Oh and those that were still too lazy, could be used to generate electric.

'Possible rant' cheezy one, my ears are dropping off from here. (JOKE)

Discuss

[cjb]

OK, the Stella-consuming underclass

[edited slightly ]

Oi. I drink Stella at times.

[David 8]

Stella ..............more Frosty jacks cider

Are we not forgetting that Stella is reaussuringly exspensive......more then the underclasses would like to pay for their pi55 ups

[cjb]

Stella ..............more Frosty jacks cider

Are we not forgetting that Stella is reaussuringly exspensive......more then the underclasses would like to pay for their pi55 ups

The expensive thing is all marketing.....

have to agree about the Frosty Jacks though.

[ap0gee1978]

Hi Cheezy one,

Good old soviet here. Are you the short one with flat cap here in this sketch. As you are enjoying the class rant here: -

The Frost Report The Class Sketch - YouTube.com

That'd be Ronnie Corbett then - how long have you lived here?

[apd007]

The OP neglects to include the most socially important, most widespread and most talked about class - The Underclass.

...........

Drink and Drugs become de rigeur to try and escape their hideous lives and the only thing the aspire to be is the flush drug dealer, or the local violent hardman, or the baby factory rolling in child credit and p1ssing their lives away.

I'm not going to quote the whole post but it is spot on.

Personally, I can't understand what a kid is thinking when his careers goal is to get his own council flat. The girls are worse, some seriously have no ambition other than to get pregnant as soon as possible for their free flat.

Surely there is something wrong if a child grows up on a "dodgy" estate hating their childhood 'cause mom is a crack whore, or her boyfriend of the week is an alcoholic, etc. yet they themselves dream of a similar adulthood.

The welfare state is a necessary safety net, the trouble is, some people seem to see it as a cocoon. The other problem is it assumes the people who are claiming dole etc. are actively trying to find work.

[cheezemonkhai]

I agree, this country definitely has problems.

[soviet]

That'd be Ronnie Corbett then - how long have you lived here?

Hi Apologies here, as link to no good.

Soviet:thumbdwn: